Firearms

[Atgxtg]

A bit off-topic, but anyone care to stat out this hulking monster:

Pfeifer Zeliska .600 Nitro Express revolver - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Sure, give me a day or so. The recoil would probably be nasty.

But if you are seriously thinking of outfitting a character with this, why not "upgrade" to tne MArdi-Griffin? It fires the .50 cal. machine gun round.

[Ars Mysteriorum]

Sure, give me a day or so. The recoil would probably be nasty.

But if you are seriously thinking of outfitting a character with this, why not "upgrade" to tne MArdi-Griffin? It fires the .50 cal. machine gun round.

I think an enemy would more likely have it.

[GianniVacca]

Well, what year, or at least decade of the 19th century are we talking about? What part of the world?

Pick a year or a campaign. It varied quite wildly.

Well, I am mostly interested in Qing China, at the time of the Opium Wars and of the Taiping rebellion.

[SDLeary]

Well, I am mostly interested in Qing China, at the time of the Opium Wars and of the Taiping rebellion.

Many of the rifles used at this time in China would have been musket or single shot rifle class. I would use Rifle, Musket and Rifle, Sporting with attacks of 1/4 and 1/3.

Now, that doesn't preclude something revolutionary being there at the time, but I would only give them to major npcs.

SDLeary

[GianniVacca]

Many of the rifles used at this time in China would have been musket or single shot rifle class. I would use Rifle, Musket and Rifle, Sporting with attacks of 1/4 and 1/3.

Thanks a lot... What about firearm availability depending on Europeans v Chinese?

[Jason D]

Well, I am mostly interested in Qing China, at the time of the Opium Wars and of the Taiping rebellion.

What a difference cultural background makes.

I thought you meant "Colonial" as in American settlers fighting Native Americans.

[TRose]

Many of the rifles used at this time in China would have been musket or single shot rifle class. I would use Rifle, Musket and Rifle, Sporting with attacks of 1/4 and 1/3.

Now, that doesn't preclude something revolutionary being there at the time, but I would only give them to major npcs.

SDLeary

The first British percussion musket came out in 1839 a converted Brown Bess

Brown Bess - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

How long these took to get to troops in the field I dont know.

Many of the British troops would have been marines. Rifle would have been few and none I think would of been standard issue, but ship Captains where know to buy a few on their own for selected marines.

Not sure about the Chinese , but as late as 1895 (Sino Japanese war) many Chinese still lacked fire arms and where using crossbows.

[Dredj]

The first British percussion musket came out in 1839 a converted Brown Bess

Brown Bess - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

How long these took to get to troops in the field I dont know.

Many of the British troops would have been marines. Rifle would have been few and none I think would of been standard issue, but ship Captains where know to buy a few on their own for selected marines.

Not sure about the Chinese , but as late as 1895 (Sino Japanese war) many Chinese still lacked fire arms and where using crossbows.

The Chinese were also using lots of martial arts. The Boxer Rebellion was called that because the term "martial arts" hadn't been invented yet.

Boxer Rebellion - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

And there seems to have been some American military action, as well, during the Boxer Rebellion.

[alairduk]

Well, I am mostly interested in Qing China, at the time of the Opium Wars and of the Taiping rebellion.

That's over a sixty year time span. The flintlock muzzle loading musket would be the most common weapon at the start of the period while by the end repeating bolt action rifles would be the order of the day. Covers everything really.

If you haven't already you might want to check out the Harry Flashman novels by George Macdonald Fraser. Part of the genius of the books (and I think they are genius) is that Fraser manages to crama lot of historical detail into the novels. There is one specifically written about his adventures in China during the Taiping rebellion period called Flashman and the Dragon.

Harry Paget Flashman - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Flashman and the Dragon - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

[GianniVacca]

Thanks a lot... What about firearm availability depending on Europeans v Chinese?

Hey all -- I am about to start writing the firearms section soon, so I thought about reviving this thread. Plus I know there are many firearms experts on this forum!

Cheers

[MrJealousy]

Not sure how much detail you're after but I found these links helpful.

Timeline - The History of Guns Rifles and Machine Guns

About.com: http://www.silcom.com/%7Evikman/isles/scriptorium/firearm/firearm.html

[Atgxtg]

One thing that might be of interest is the relative lack of standardization among early firearms. No only were there various calibers for muskets, but most parts were not interchangeable between guns-even the same model. The tolerances used in manufacturing at the time meant that each weapon was really a custom job.

There is a case in the 1800s where one of the arms manufacturers produces a small batch (five I believe) of rifles that with fully interchangeable parts in order to impress the US Army and secure a government contract. The rifles were meticulously hand crafted. None of the other thousands of that model rifle that were produced were fully interchangeable-just those five.

[Rob Thomas]

So basically you are talking 1840-1865; Opium wars being 1839-42 and 1856-60, and Taiping rebellion 1850-64.

For the British that means issue long arms will be purely muzzle loaders. The various versions of the Brown Bess would have been the most common issue, especially the Sea Service Pattern with the Marines. Rifled muzzle loaders would have also been pretty common both with the Brunswick and later the 1853 Rifle-Musket. Pistols would have been flintlock on and percussion muzzle loaders. Nothing else would have been issued during this period. The Snyder breach loading conversion of the Enfields would not appear for few years later and bolt actions are decades away.

Officers and non-military gentlemen would have also carried a wider range of privately purchased weapons, but they would have been mostly of similar type, to include some single and double barrel sporting guns (rifles and shotguns). A few revolving and pepperbox pistols might have also been present in non-military hands.

Sadly, I know of know good sources for the Chinese arms of the period. Despite the huge numbers involved my guess is that it was a motley collection of small arms - China certainly had no capacity to produce a standardized arm in such quantities. One thing is pretty much a given, the muzzle loading percussion musket would have been the high tech rarity. Flintlocks muskets would have dominated.

All in all nowhere near the variety of arms as in North America during the same period.

[rust]

As far as I know, there were only two major Chinese units equipped with com-

paratively modern firearms during this period, both during the Taiping rebellion:

The Ever Victorious Army under British leadership and the Beiyang Army under

Chinese command.

However, I have no idea what weapons were used by these units, although I

think that the Ever Victorious Army probably was supplied with British stan-

dard muskets, many of which later went into other hands, because the Ever

Victorious Army suffered badly from desertion.

Much later, around 1900, the Beiyang Army was outfitted with the standard

Japanese infantry rifle.

[GianniVacca]

Thank you all... I would be eternally grateful to you if you could provide me BRP-like stats for these weapons (I'm really an ignoramus in terms of firearms!)

[rust]

As for the standard musket of the age, the "Brown Bess", I think the stats

given for the "Rifle, Musket" on page 255 of the BRP core rules book come

close enough, and you could get some additional details (weight, etc.) from

this Wikipedia page:

Brown Bess - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

[Atgxtg]

Thank you all... I would be eternally grateful to you if you could provide me BRP-like stats for these weapons (I'm really an ignoramus in terms of firearms!)

I'm putting together a short table with some sample weapons of the era. Just to be sure, can you clarify just where the campaign is set?

I've got some info for quite a few different weapons from the mid-18th century, although not all of them would be available everywhere-or at least not in great quantity.

[Rob Thomas]

The range of the Rifle, Musket is rather optimistic for a Brown Bess or any smoothbore of the period. I would use 40 for the musket and 70 or so for the rifles. Maybe decrease Attk for the rifled versions to 1/5.

[Atgxtg]

The range of the Rifle, Musket is rather optimistic for a Brown Bess or any smoothbore of the period. I would use 40 for the musket and 70 or so for the rifles. Maybe decrease Attk for the rifled versions to 1/5.

There was a comment that hitting a man at 200 paces with a musket is about as hard as hitting a man on the moon-that is impossible.

Since BRP lets people shoot at 2x and 4x the base range by halving the skill, I'd probably drop the ranges to something like 25 and 50.

Something like a 1863 Spencer Carbine might just pop up by the end of the era in question with a range of around 85, and be quite popular, if rare.

[rust]

There was a comment that hitting a man at 200 paces with a musket is about as hard as hitting a man on the moon-that is impossible.

Yes and No.

The mass produced muskets of the European armies were used for tactics

that did not require high accuracy and range, they were mostly used to fire

volleys at comparatively short range into massed infantry formations, "killing

by statistics".

However, many of the hand crafted, long barreled Arab muskets were de-

signed for high accuracy at long range, and for example the French in Alge-

ria considered them rather dangerous at up to 250 meters.

But you are of course right about the "Brown Bess".

[Rob Thomas]

There was a comment that hitting a man at 200 paces with a musket is about as hard as hitting a man on the moon-that is impossible.

The comments that come from people with inadequate knowledge about firearms make me smile.

Since BRP lets people shoot at 2x and 4x the base range by halving the skill, I'd probably drop the ranges to something like 25 and 50.

Under battlefield conditions those are perfectly reasonable numbers, but not good representations of the true capabilities of the longarms of the period.

Something like a 1863 Spencer Carbine might just pop up by the end of the era in question with a range of around 85, and be quite popular, if rare.

As long as you had an ammo source the Spencer would be hugely popular. Colt revolvers were quite popular in London as early as 1850 and could have made their way to China. By 1860 a character could be carrying a Henry or Sharps. Still, i suspect the total number in country for any American model was probably in the single digits.

[Sutekh]

The stats in the BRP book for musket rifle are are the same as the stats used for the .58 Springfield rifle musket in CoC book. The CoC book Fatal Experiments gives the stats of the Brown Bess as damage 1d8+4 and range of 40.

[Atgxtg]

The stats in the BRP book for musket rifle are are the same as the stats used for the .58 Springfield rifle musket in CoC book. The CoC book Fatal Experiments gives the stats of the Brown Bess as damage 1d8+4 and range of 40.

Argh! It looks like a case of misusing the term "rifle". A rifle is not just a long barreled weapon requring 2 hands to use, but one where the barrel has sprialled grouves (rifling) that help to stabilize the bullet.

The description in the BRP core book, notes that the weapon if a rifle, but that it could be loaded with sharpnel and used like a shotgun. While this could be done with a musket, with varying effectiveness, it would undermine the purpose of rifling the barrel.

I guess we need stats for a smoothbore musket.

[rust]

I guess we need stats for a smoothbore musket.

Now I am beginning to suspect that I have a language problem, because in

German a musket is defined as a muzzle loading smoothbore weapon ? :confused:

Edited December 18, 2009 by rust

[rust]

By the way, I just found this sentence in an article about the Taiping Revolt:

1864 was the year when the first Chinese indigenously built bolt-action single-shot rifle appeared ...

So at least the elite units of the Chinese army probably were armed with such

rifles after 1864.

Edit.:

It obviously was a Chinese copy of a Remington rifle, produced at Jiangnan Ar-

senal in Shanghai with machines imported from the USA. However, I have not

found an information which Remington model it was.

Edited December 18, 2009 by rust