The Pavis Plan

[Jeff]

40 minutes ago, Ian Thomson said:

I was looking last night of my print out of some (sadly not all) of the emails I shared with Greg

In the information above you mention:

- one thing pretty much exactly summing up something Greg stated explicitly

- one thing that is a red herring but intriguing to consider

- one thing that is spot on the button according to what he and I hashed out, and something I am now free to write about more explicitly

- and one thing that correctly observes such a secret, but then diverts in a different direction with it

As an aside, Greg and I talked about this a LOT from 2010 until his untimely death. And the whole "Green Age" Pavis plot line is something Greg wanted us to move away from.

[soltakss]

6 hours ago, Jeff said:

As an aside, Greg and I talked about this a LOT from 2010 until his untimely death. And the whole "Green Age" Pavis plot line is something Greg wanted us to move away from.

Great, so Chaosium can move away from it.

However, it could still be a subplot or storyline explored in non-Chaosium supplements.

 

[Jose]

3 hours ago, Jeff said:

As an aside, Greg and I talked about this a LOT from 2010 until his untimely death. And the whole "Green Age" Pavis plot line is something Greg wanted us to move away from.

Then, why did Pavis found a city in the middle of nowhere surrounded by hostiles praxians?. I don't understand. It has to be something very important to justify those troubles and efforts. 

[David Scott]

37 minutes ago, Jose said:

Then, why did Pavis found a city in the middle of nowhere surrounded by hostiles praxians?. I don't understand. It has to be something very important to justify those troubles and efforts. 

The Jrusteli's destroyed settlement at Robcradle was still a key interception point for cradles, and the magical resources that could be plundered from them. He escaped the sack of Adari by nomads, so was likely out for revenge against them. So after his studies in the EWF, combining the two was an easy project. Likely there were still Jrusteli secrets in the ruins too (although that didn't work out too well for anyone).

 

[Ian A. Thomson]

8 hours ago, Jeff said:

As an aside, Greg and I talked about this a LOT from 2010 until his untimely death. And the whole "Green Age" Pavis plot line is something Greg wanted us to move away from.

Sure, and that wasn't the case when I was communicating with him. People change their minds. No worries. I have a load of emails from Greg before he changed his mind, and I'm going to expand on those ideas. I was puzzled though in the video when you dismissed it as 'some fan theory', when it was actually something Greg was seriously into for a significant time. If I can link it all back in to the new official stuff somehow when it is released I would like to do that. The more quality Pavis material the better :)

Edited March 12, 2022 by Ian Thomson

[Ian A. Thomson]

On 3/12/2022 at 7:53 PM, Jose said:

Then, why did Pavis found a city in the middle of nowhere surrounded by hostiles praxians?. I don't understand. It has to be something very important to justify those troubles and efforts. 

Glorantha isn't an exact science. Greg explored the Green Age stuff in depth with me, and then it seems like he later changed his mind. That's not a problem. All Gloranthas vary, even the Glorantha of the founder has shifted and changed. I'm going to keep going with the ideas Greg discussed with me because they are just too juicy to throw away. And they do indeed give answers to some questions like yours. It doesn't matter to me at all that it's no longer canon. I'm writing for MGF. and have the fortune to have had some discussions with the founder about those ideas. Not a big issue for me that he changed his mind; I'm not saying my ideas should be official, only that they are really interesting and worth presenting again. :)

Edited July 7, 2022 by Ian Thomson

[Bill the barbarian]

9 hours ago, Ian Thomson said:

I'm writing for MGF. and have the fortune to have had some discussions with the founder about those ideas. Not a big issue for me that he changed his mind; I'm not saying my ideas should be official, only that they are really interesting and worth presenting again. 🙂

Having had a chance to get elbow deep in the viscera of Ian’s work, I have to say it may not look like a canon, or smell like a canon, but it should go boom... just like a canon! It might even be a little bit of fun. But canon... well if you squint and turn your head just so. 

Seriously... fun! And these days, that might mean something!

Edited March 12, 2022 by Bill the barbarian

[Jeff]

5 hours ago, Jose said:

Then, why did Pavis found a city in the middle of nowhere surrounded by hostiles praxians?. I don't understand. It has to be something very important to justify those troubles and efforts. 

This was a period of expansion and opportunity, a time of magical exploration and experimentation. And founding a city is one of the ways (both in Glorantha and in the real world) of achieving greatness. Pavis managed to combine both of those.

And contrary to Pavis being in the middle of nowhere - Robcradle, a Jrusteli ruin, was surrounded by rich alluvial lands, perfect for settlement and farming. If Lord Pavis could defeat the Praxians, he could build a great settlement in what had been desert.

The romantic vision of "making the desert bloom" has motivated many from Isaiah 35 to Bugsy Siegel and Howard Hughes.   There were of course specifics of what Lord Pavis hoped to do (unify mortals, uncover Jrusteli secrets, etc), but all fall within that old exhortation to civilise the wilderness. 

[AndreasDavour]

From now on I will think of Bugsy Siegel and Howard Hughes when anyone mentions Pavis! That is MGF if I ever saw it.

[Jeff]

2 hours ago, Jeff said:

This was a period of expansion and opportunity, a time of magical exploration and experimentation. And founding a city is one of the ways (both in Glorantha and in the real world) of achieving greatness. Pavis managed to combine both of those.

And contrary to Pavis being in the middle of nowhere - Robcradle, a Jrusteli ruin, was surrounded by rich alluvial lands, perfect for settlement and farming. If Lord Pavis could defeat the Praxians, he could build a great settlement in what had been desert.

The romantic vision of "making the desert bloom" has motivated many from Isaiah 35 to Bugsy Siegel and Howard Hughes.   There were of course specifics of what Lord Pavis hoped to do (unify mortals, uncover Jrusteli secrets, etc), but all fall within that old exhortation to civilise the wilderness. 

Also it should be kept in mind that it is only about 200 km from Boldhome to Pavis. That's a long way, but hardly the middle of nowhere. 

[Bill the barbarian]

22 minutes ago, Jeff said:

Also it should be kept in mind that it is only about 200 km from Boldhome to Pavis. That's a long way, but hardly the middle of nowhere. 

One could mention that being on the edges of the Empire of the Wyrms Friends was being on the edge of one of the greatest of continental Empires of the lozenge. One that touched on the lives of millions.

Edited March 12, 2022 by Bill the barbarian

[Jeff]

13 minutes ago, Bill the barbarian said:

One could mention that being on the edges of the Empire of the Wyrms Friends was being on the edge of one of the greatest of continental Empires of the lozenge. One that touched on the lives of millions.

And although Pavis was not part of the Empire of the Wyrms Friends, it was closely allied. Like Pergamon with Rome or how many Greek city-states were not technically part of the Hellenistic kingdoms, but were closely allied.

[Ian A. Thomson]

Greg did give me a definitive answer to the question above: 'Why did Pavis come to this place specifically?" I was surprised and fascinated to hear it. Sounds like he then abandoned that whole concept later on, and this still surprises me since his ideas were quite well-developed, and we also developed them further.

And by the way, full disclosure - not all of my ideas met Greg's approval. For instance, he was very anti the idea of a major dwarf-built sewer system that could be travelled around in, and I'm keeping that :) But other things he was totally up for: "Yes the Opili subcult makes sense and can be canon, as long as you don't make it too powerful."

Plus I offered a solution to one unknown element of his Pavis Grand Plan idea, and he was like: "Yes! That solves it. Perfect. Make that so!" (It was something to do with Mani's Clan.)

In the series (Vol. 01 still likely to be online by the end of July as indicated, but definitely Aug if not) I will stick to the ideas Greg shared with me, and those I suggested that he was in favor of, as closely as I can. (We tended to discuss med/big picture more than minor details.) But freely admitting that things like the Pavis City Sewer System will not be abandoned! :)

Also at the time he was against the idea of the Eye of Wakboth being under the Rubble, and said that maybe it was actually some other chaos relic. It sounded like he had another idea for the location of the Eye. This was something I was disappointed by. The idea of the Eye of Wakboth being under the Rubble was just too exciting. And happily I think that idea is being revisited in the new official material IIRC.

Edited July 14, 2022 by Ian A. Thomson

[Jeff]

11 hours ago, Ian A. Thomson said:

Greg did give me a definitive answer to the question above: 'Why did Pavis come to this place specifically?" I was surprised and fascinated to hear it. Sounds like he then abandoned that whole concept later on, and this still surprises me since his ideas were quite well-developed, and we also developed them further.

And by the way, full disclosure - not all of my ideas met Greg's approval. For instance, he was very anti the idea of a major dwarf-built sewer system that could be travelled around in, and I'm keeping that 🙂 But other things he was totally up for: "Yes the Opili subcult makes sense and can be canon, as long as you don't make it too powerful."

Plus I offered a solution to one unknown element of his Pavis Grand Plan idea, and he was like: "Yes! That solves it. Perfect. Make that so!" (It was something to do with Mani's Clan.)

In the series (Vol. 01 still likely to be online by the end of July as indicated, but definitely Aug if not) I will stick to the ideas Greg shared with me, and those I suggested that he was in favor of, as closely as I can. (We tended to discuss med/big picture more than minor details.) But freely admitting that things like the Pavis City Sewer System will not be abandoned! 🙂

Also at the time he was against the idea of the Eye of Wakboth being under the Rubble, and said that maybe it was actually some other chaos relic. It sounded like he had another idea for the location of the Eye. This was something I was disappointed by. The idea of the Eye of Wakboth being under the Rubble was just too exciting. And happily I think that idea is being revisited in the new official material IIRC.

I am fully aware of all of this, and much needs to be put in the context of Greg's work on a computer game that fell through. However, Greg and I worked closely on Glorantha material up to his passing, and that included thinking carefully about Pavis within the context of RuneQuest and Glorantha overall. So here's a few comments:

1. Lord Pavis was as we all know a EWF-era heroquester who was active in a period when experimental and exploratory heroquesting was supported and encouraged. Although he was not part of the Third Council (of course not - he predated the Third Council by a half-century), his activities took place during the time when the Empire of the Wyrms Friends was founded and that mortals in Dragon Pass charted their own paths and made new patterns, rather than simply repeat previous patterns.

2. Lord Pavis was half-human and half-aldryami. We don't know which parent was which - BUT this does happen. Humans sire children on dryads, elfs and tree spirits sometimes sire children on humans. Fertility magic and rituals can result in rare combinations! This stuff happens more often in times like the rise of the EWF (because people are being open to new magical experiences, etc), but it even happens in the present age (although more more rare).

3. Lord Pavis' sought to "tame Waha" - he escaped the sack of Adari by Waha and the giants. He fled to the Empire of the Wyrms Friends, completed his studies and preparations and made his way to the Faceless State and animated it. With allies, Pavis attacked the barbarians at Paragua's walls while the statue engaged the giants. Paragua was killed and Waha was incurably wounded by the statue. The barbarians fled but the Faceless Statue collapsed, all of its magical energies exhausted. The EWF later attacked Waha again and again hurt him.

Lord Pavis then traveled to the Paps and cured Waha of his wounds. The god agreed to be friends with Lord Pavis and peace was made. Pavis then built his city out of the statue's stone and with dwarfish craft led by Flintnail Hardeye, one of the ancient Mostali, the Dwarf-Makers. For nearly twenty years the dwarfs laboured, but in 850 the city of Pavis was complete. Before he left the city, Flintnail fathered a son on one of Lord Pavis' daughters; this son began the Flintnail cult when he grew up. The cult centred around a temple of masons and sculptors built within the quarry, providing the crafts people and experts necessary for the continued building within the city grounds.

4. Pavis was settled by all sorts of folk, mostly from Dragon Pass. Dwarfs, elves, humans, dragonewts - all were welcome. Lord Pavis was friends with the Pure Horse Folk and especially with his Zebra-riding allies led by Joraz Kyrem. Now Joraz was a man of the Sun (Yelm), as were all the Pure Horse people in those days. When Lord Pavis retired to his temple in 860, he approved the choice of Joraz Kyrem as King of Pavis. With that the Arrowsmith Dynasty was born.

5. After being defeated in 870, Thog the Giant showed up five years later with a vast army of trolls and jolanti. They moved too fast for allies to come to Joraz Kyrem's aid and they broke the walls. Most of the city fell except for the Temple of Pavis. King Joraz Kyrem fled to Dragon Pass and recruited the Sun Dome Templars to assist him. In 877, Joraz Kyrem engaged Thog in a magical battle for days, while the giant's allies were whittled away by the Yelmalio cultists. In the end Thog was defeated and fled. After this defeat, the cradles ceased floating down the river. 

6. The next half-century is an age of prosperity and growth with Pavis friendly to the nearby Empire of the Wyrms Friends. The city grew to some 25,000 residents.

7. Starting in 927, Pavis was besieged by the nomads for 13 years(!), until it finally fell to Jaldon Goldentooth in 940. Half the city's inhabitants were killed or enslaved, and the Arrowsmith Dynasty was no more. For the next three centuries, Pavis declined, haunted by ghosts of its former glory. After 1120, it was cut off entirely from Dragon Pass. The city became a post-apocalyptic wasteland, with little besieged districts ruled by whoever could lead their defence. The population of Pavis declined to less than 5,000. Perhaps far less.

8. In 1237 Pavis fell to the trolls. After that history pretty much ended and the next three centuries were a grim and largely unrecorded struggle for survival until Pavis was reopened by the Dragonewts' Dream.

There is a LOT in there. Lord Pavis was active for a comparatively short period - about thirty years. After that it is the time of the Arrowsmith Dynasty - about 80 years. And then the three centuries of the Seventeen Foes of Waha. And after that.. well let's not think about what went on then.

The City of Pavis had been reopened for about 11 years when refugees from Sartar founded Pavis Outside the Walls (1550). The Indagos family were leaders of Old Pavis, but now their wealth comes from property outside the city and from their control of the city's salt monopoly.

At this time (1625), there are about 5100 permanent human residents of New Pavis and about 1500 in the Big Rubble. Human cultural activity, politics, power, and wealth has been centred on New Pavis for the last 75 years. However, the cult of Pavis is oriented towards the Rubble - probably about half of the cult's initiates are in the Big Rubble and the Temple of Pavis in the Big Rubble is considered far more sacred than the temple in New Pavis. 

[Ian A. Thomson]

Yes, totally. All of that is my understanding or matches it perfectly. I am spinning off of the official history as it has been. Excellent summary to see all in one hit too.

[Jeff]

Another thing to keep in mind is how little anyone in 1625 knows beyond what is in the Players Knowledge section. The Pavis cult knows little more than what they can divine from Lord Pavis, in seven word sentences usually! Their cult was reduced to little more than ancestor worship for many centuries (or even a cargo cult, worshipping the architects of the city). Mani provides some whenever he is reborn, but he doesn't spend his years writing his stories down. Even Ginkizzie does not have first hand accounts of that era (although he certainly knows much more than the scribes). 

So it is up to the adventurers do discover anything more than what it is in the Players Knowledge. No doubt the sages have access to some secret knowledge (no doubt discovered by previous investigators), but that doesn't come cheap. Or maybe the adventurers can be hired by the Pavis Cult to discover what the Pavis cult knew seven centuries ago!

[g33k]

Honestly:  for me "MGF" looks an awful lot like  "(E) All of the above."   This is very much like several other Gloranthan "truths" -- asking "Which is true, myth-A or myth-B, since they are clearly incompatible?" the paradoxical answer is, "they may be incompatible, but they nevertheless are also both true."

Did Pavis "fail at heroquesting"?  Well, yes; insofar as he didn't achieve the major goals he was seeking, and had to retreat to his crystal palace.

Is Pavis "trapped in Stasis by Dwarves seeking a pure-form Man Rune as part of restoring the World Machine"?  Yes again, albeit the crystal trap/palace is both more and less than they wanted it to be (it has elements of Pavis' own Plan embedded, like flaws in a gemstone (from Pavis' POV, it looks a lot like his crystal has Dwarven flaws embedded; again, both perspectives are true)).

Was Pavis trying to "Become" the Man-Rune?  Yes again; it's unclear to me if that looks like supplanting "Grandfather Mortal" or achieving unity with "Grandfather Mortal" (this may have been unclear to Lord Pavis, as well!).  But he sought the same sort of single-rune identity that Orlanth has with Air/Storm, that Humakt has with Death, that Aldrya has with Plant, etc.

Was Pavis trying to do something Green-Age related?  Yes, there are several elements of the Man-Rune which became inextricably-intertwined with other Runes after the Green Age, and Lord Pavis had concluded that (A) a Green Age project was the best way to recover them, & (B) a Green Age project would gain him highly-useful Elven allies.

etc etc etc

It's all true... in one glorious, messy, contradictory, tangle of multidimensional spaghetti!


(Was Pavis a secret devotee of the Flying Spaghetti Monster... well... maybe!  But I'm pretty sure Lord Pavis had been Touched by His Noodly Appendage!)