First playtest of 'The Broken Tower', RQ Quickstart scenario

[Richard S.]

7 minutes ago, Jason Durall said:

It would be nice, but there just wasn't enough room. We literally went through shaving words off paragraphs to make things fit. The ultimate goal, also, was a good framework for an adventure in Glorantha, and since the adventure doesn't take place near any towns or temples, it didn't make sense to include it. 

Wait, you mean there's rules for rune magic but no cults? 

[styopa]

1 hour ago, Jason Durall said:

It would be nice, but there just wasn't enough room. We literally went through shaving words off paragraphs to make things fit. The ultimate goal, also, was a good framework for an adventure in Glorantha, and since the adventure doesn't take place near any towns or temples, it didn't make sense to include it. 

Oh I understand the constraints of a page count.

I'm not in your position, but I would certainly speculate that cults - even just a single teaser example, and abbreviated as well - would be more important for a quick-start session (and essentially to sell the concepts of the game) than:

- reputation & ransom

- abilities above 100%

- gaining a passion

- travel time

- encumberance

- (spirit and rune magic lists should even be curtailed to those available with the pregen toons and enemies in the adventure)

[smiorgan]

9 hours ago, Mankcam said:

Well it looks like the Resistance Table is back!

I've been for a long time a proud member of the Resistance.

[Richard S.]

1 hour ago, styopa said:

Oh I understand the constraints of a page count.

I'm not in your position, but I would certainly speculate that cults - even just a single teaser example, and abbreviated as well - would be more important for a quick-start session (and essentially to sell the concepts of the game) than:

- reputation & ransom

- abilities above 100%

- gaining a passion

- travel time

- encumberance

- (spirit and rune magic lists should even be curtailed to those available with the pregen toons and enemies in the adventure)

I agree with this. Also, I'm not sure if the 44 pg. limit for the RQ quickstart is including the covers, but the CoC quickstart has 48 pages. You sure you can't squeeze in a little extra material for a cult? Say 1 to 2 pages?

[styopa]

1 hour ago, Richard S. said:

I agree with this. Also, I'm not sure if the 44 pg. limit for the RQ quickstart is including the covers, but the CoC quickstart has 48 pages. You sure you can't squeeze in a little extra material for a cult? Say 1 to 2 pages?

IIRC he said he did have 48pp.

And just to be clear, I'm NOT second-guessing him.  He's the editor, it's his baby.  My suggestions are merely that - as a player of a quickstart, I'm sitting down for a ready-made adventure, and need nothing of (what he's mostly already omitted) strategic considerations, character advancement, etc.  I'm sitting down to PLAY.  Pregen toons, so they should be ready to run, with all the details and mods right there on the sheet.  Don't need price lists, don't need encumbrance, it should already be there.

As a consumer, unfamiliar with RQ but hearing this is one of those 'foundational' RPG rule sets with a significant facelift, I look at the cover and go "ooh, that's pretty good.  I like that".  Then I flip through the TOC and see the basic stuff about combat, etc (every game has that) and then hit RUNES.  Hm, that sounds interesting.  Then CULTS.  WTF?  Cults?  Like creepy religious things?  What's that about?  ...mm...this is pretty cool.  No other game I've ever played has made faith so intrinsic to gameplay...when you think about it, what IF gods were real?  Of course religion would be HUGE...."

[Jason D]

20 hours ago, Richard S. said:

Wait, you mean there's rules for rune magic but no cults? 

The quickstart adventure is a short adventure, set in the wilderness away from any temples. The pregens are initiates and a priestess of six different cults: Orlanth, Issaries, Ernalda, Lhankor Mhy, Seven Mothers, and we are planning on an extra downloadable sixth character, an initiate of Waha. 

Cults get a LOT of attention in the core book, but for the purpose of quickstart, it didn't make any sense to include a dramatically abbreviated version of a cult only one of the pregens might worship. 

[Jason D]

19 hours ago, styopa said:

Oh I understand the constraints of a page count.

I'm not in your position, but I would certainly speculate that cults - even just a single teaser example, and abbreviated as well - would be more important for a quick-start session (and essentially to sell the concepts of the game) than:

- reputation & ransom

- abilities above 100%

- gaining a passion

- travel time

- encumberance

- (spirit and rune magic lists should even be curtailed to those available with the pregen toons and enemies in the adventure)

I see your point, but the question was: "Though this is interesting, and gives flavor for the world, is it of any use in the adventure?" As the adventure is, as mentioned above, not in or around a temple or concerning a particular cult, such information would be just background info that the GM would either: 1) read to the players, or 2) ignore. 

Reputation is called for in the quickstart. As is the concept of Ransom. 

Abilities, though augmenting, might get to over 100%. 

There is a chance of gaining a new passion. 

The scenario covers travel, so it made sense to include it. 

Encumbrance affects everything an adventurer does, physically, hence its inclusion. 

The magic lists have been abbreviated. We also trimmed the skills list to remove things like Boating, etc. that would not be useful in the confines of the quickstart. 

18 hours ago, Richard S. said:

I agree with this. Also, I'm not sure if the 44 pg. limit for the RQ quickstart is including the covers, but the CoC quickstart has 48 pages. You sure you can't squeeze in a little extra material for a cult? Say 1 to 2 pages?

42 pages of rules plus adventure, six pages for pregens and their mounts/summonable creatures, and one for advertising/information. 

16 hours ago, styopa said:

IIRC he said he did have 48pp.

And just to be clear, I'm NOT second-guessing him.  He's the editor, it's his baby.  My suggestions are merely that - as a player of a quickstart, I'm sitting down for a ready-made adventure, and need nothing of (what he's mostly already omitted) strategic considerations, character advancement, etc.  I'm sitting down to PLAY.  Pregen toons, so they should be ready to run, with all the details and mods right there on the sheet.  Don't need price lists, don't need encumbrance, it should already be there.

As a consumer, unfamiliar with RQ but hearing this is one of those 'foundational' RPG rule sets with a significant facelift, I look at the cover and go "ooh, that's pretty good.  I like that".  Then I flip through the TOC and see the basic stuff about combat, etc (every game has that) and then hit RUNES.  Hm, that sounds interesting.  Then CULTS.  WTF?  Cults?  Like creepy religious things?  What's that about?  ...mm...this is pretty cool.  No other game I've ever played has made faith so intrinsic to gameplay...when you think about it, what IF gods were real?  Of course religion would be HUGE...."

Again, it was a space consideration. If it doesn't/won't come up in the adventure, it's not in the quickstart rules. 

Edited March 28, 2017 by Jason Durall

[styopa]

2 hours ago, Jason Durall said:

I see your point, but the question was: "Though this is interesting, and gives flavor for the world, is it of any use in the adventure?" As the adventure is, as mentioned above, not in or around a temple or concerning a particular cult, such information would be just background info that the GM would either: 1) read to the players, or 2) ignore. 

Reputation is called for in the quickstart. As is the concept of Ransom. 

Abilities, though augmenting, might get to over 100%. 

There is a chance of gaining a new passion. 

The scenario covers travel, so it made sense to include it. 

Encumbrance affects everything an adventurer does, physically, hence its inclusion. 

The magic lists have been abbreviated. We also trimmed the skills list to remove things like Boating, etc. that would not be useful in the confines of the quickstart. 

42 pages of rules plus adventure, six pages for pregens and their mounts/summonable creatures, and one for advertising/information. 

Again, it was a space consideration. If it doesn't/won't come up in the adventure, it's not in the quickstart rules. 

All entirely fair points.  It's just on us as Gloranthan literati to run the games at our FLGS conveying the texture behind whatever you can cram into 48pp.  Good luck!

 

[g33k]

2 hours ago, Jason Durall said:

Abilities, though augmenting, might get to over 100%.  

I think this one might catch some of the grognards by surprise (it did me!).  Rune-effects, passions, etc ... the potential for significant ability-jumps is very real.

[styopa]

1 hour ago, g33k said:

I think this one might catch some of the grognards by surprise (it did me!).  Rune-effects, passions, etc ... the potential for significant ability-jumps is very real.

Not to mention that remember Jeff's focus on this is basically STARTING at rune-level.

[Richard S.]

2 hours ago, g33k said:

I think this one might catch some of the grognards by surprise (it did me!).  Rune-effects, passions, etc ... the potential for significant ability-jumps is very real.

"You darned young whippershnappers! Messin' up a perfectly good system with all these new-fangled runes and passions and whatnot! Back In my day we all had broadsword at 25%... and liked It!

[g33k]

4 hours ago, Richard S. said:

... Back In my day we all had broadsword at 25%... and liked It!

Prissy li'l Storm Bull'ers 'n' der bodsords... ROCKS iz good 'nuf fer bash'n da chaos!!!  uz rules 'n' you steers drools!!!

 

[g33k]

6 hours ago, styopa said:

Not to mention that remember Jeff's focus on this is basically STARTING at rune-level.

Starting (by default) a bit below Rune-level (if I understand correctly).

PC's can have one apex-skill at the necessary level, but not all the other parts of a Priest's / Rune Lord's skills/spells/etc.  It takes more than being a Swordmaster to be a Sword of Humakt, after all...

 

[Mankcam]

6 hours ago, Richard S. said:

Back In my day we all had broadsword at 25%... and liked It!

Yer started with a full 25% in a broadsword?

Of course, we 'ad it tough - we only started with a cudgel and a few clacks. But it was a Sword to us!

Edited March 29, 2017 by Mankcam

[Mankcam]

1 hour ago, g33k said:

 

 

 

Edited March 29, 2017 by Mankcam

[Rick Meints]

Whenever we refer to the page count of any of our books it strictly refers to the internal pages.

Thus, the 48 page QuickStart has 48 internal pages, plus a front cover, back cover, and unprinted inside covers. SOME might call that 52 pages, but we won't.

It's very rare for us to print on the inside front and inside back covers (other than the OSR Packs which had that, and it was cheap to do in B&W)

[g33k]

10 hours ago, Rick Meints said:

Whenever we refer to the page count of any of our books it strictly refers to the internal pages.

Thus, the 48 page QuickStart has 48 internal pages, plus a front cover, back cover, and unprinted inside covers. SOME might call that 52 pages, but we won't.

It's very rare for us to print on the inside front and inside back covers (other than the OSR Packs which had that, and it was cheap to do in B&W)

That's very interesting... I'd be interested if you'd go into that a bit more, if that's OK...

WHY do you print so seldom on inside-cover pages?  What might you do with that space, if you were going to do something?  Etc ...

[Jeff]

On 3/28/2017 at 10:43 PM, styopa said:

Not to mention that remember Jeff's focus on this is basically STARTING at rune-level.

Hardly "starting at Rune level". I do want it to be reasonably possible to become a Rune level in about 6 to 9 seasons of play (which might be 6 to 12 sessions, or might be longer, depending on play style). But starting one skill at 90%+ is not the same thing as starting at Rune-level. Not by a long shot.

 

[Rick Meints]

15 hours ago, g33k said:

That's very interesting... I'd be interested if you'd go into that a bit more, if that's OK...

WHY do you print so seldom on inside-cover pages?  What might you do with that space, if you were going to do something?  Etc ...

Part of the reason is based on tradition, the rest of the reason is that it's slightly more costly to print on those inside covers than not printing on them.

Other than that there is no good reason. I can't speak for any other companies, but only a few print on the inside covers and when they do it is often a map. 

[g33k]

1 hour ago, Rick Meints said:

Part of the reason is based on tradition, the rest of the reason is that it's slightly more costly to print on those inside covers than not printing on them.

Other than that there is no good reason. I can't speak for any other companies, but only a few print on the inside covers and when they do it is often a map. 

Thank you!

Maps there make good sense.  Hypothetically (depending on the particulars) I can imagine some other things that might make sense, too (in particular, anything "field guide" flavored often uses an inside-cover position for quick-reference content -- bird silhouettes, animal-tracks, etc).

[Mankcam]

19 hours ago, Jeff said:

Hardly "starting at Rune level". I do want it to be reasonably possible to become a Rune level in about 6 to 9 seasons of play (which might be 6 to 12 sessions, or might be longer, depending on play style). But starting one skill at 90%+ is not the same thing as starting at Rune-level. Not by a long shot.

 

I like the notion that an experienced character does not necessarily equal being a Runemaster. A Runemaster should be something much more.

If the default starting character for the new RQ is an experienced veteran, then I was not initially fond of this idea. However, upon reflection I can see some merit in it.

My troupe plays on a monthly to second monthly basis; so starting a game at dirtcrawler level is only a good idea if we want to set the game there for a while, as the path to epic hero will take some time.

I suspect many of the more mature gamers may be in a similar situation, as we often have more commitments now than when we first started playing rpgs during our adolescence. Unfortunately more commitments often means less time to devote to hobbies, so less time to devote to rpgs and playing characters from dirtcrawler capacity up to epic hero status.

I suppose I don't mind having the default for a RQ character to be that of an experienced veteran, just as long as there are options for starting less than this. I actually don't mind the old 'zero to hero' approach of old school rpgs, but I do like having an option for starting more powerful (or vice versa)

I always found it quite odd how many published scenarios would often call for capable heroes, yet in game mechanics that scenario might be set for beginning characters. D&D was often doing this, with quests and such narratively destined for veterans and heroes, yet in terms of game mechanics it was set only for  Levels 1 to Level 5 characters; which was often a disconnect to the narrative as written.

At least in some RQ scenarios there used to be a rationale why inexperienced characters might be pivotal to the story line. For example, in Apple Lane the 'quest giver' Gringle Goodsell was desperate in the fact that he had only just divined that his shop was going to be attacked in the very near future, so he was scrambling to hire anyone who was willing to be paid to protect his property. He did not have time to send word out to local Thanes and such, so any willing traveler in the Tin Inn was employed. So at least the narrative supported why beginning characters were pivotal. However not many more complex scenarios or campaigns did this.

The reality is that the experienced veteran level is probably a good level to set many published scenarios at, as it would give a reason for the characters being pivotal people in the scenario story line. 

Edited March 31, 2017 by Mankcam

[styopa]

Of course the advantage of the zero-to-hero is programmed learning of your character's abilities.  NOTHING is better to teach you (as a player) how to maximally use the abilities you have, or to appreciate the abilities you gain, than hard experience from zero-to-hero.  It also makes the game a little harder to teach if players are starting with lots of abilities and options, particularly if the players are new to the game concepts entirely.

I too agree with - as Jeff more accurately describes it - 'veteran but not yet quite Rune Level' being generally more FUN to play than stickpickers afraid of their own shadows...personally (and this is an entirely personal preference) I fear the power-creep necessary to make people who start at that point really feel heroic.  

If, as an arbitrary yard stick, we say toon development needs to progress an order of magnitude in power for players to "feel" accomplishment/powerful, then it doesn't really matter where you set your starting bar, you need to have an end-point 10x the power.  If you start as a stickpicker (say, 45-60%), and move to mastery (say 125%) you're within what I'd call the RQ/d100 'sweet spot' of operations.  If everyone starts with their main relied-upon skill at 90%, where does that toon go?

Then again, every MMORPG has also (d)evolved away from challenge and progress paradigms.  So probably that's the commercially wiser choice for the mass market.

[Jason D]

Just as a clarification... starting adventurers will have a bit of experience, but they won't be seasoned veterans on the edge of retirement, or even in their primes. They'll be around 21 or so, with a few skills in the 70%+ range, maybe one or two higher, a handful of spirit magic spells, not a lot of Rune points, and a fleshed-out backstory. They may have fought in a battle or two, seen a few big things, maybe even earned some passions like Loyalty, Hate, Love, and even gotten a bit of Reputation... but there's still a long way to go before they're going to be ready for the Hero Wars. 

And it's possible to be not that experienced at all, if the background generation indicates so. I recently rolled up an adventurer with a "let the dice fall where they may" self-imposed restriction, and got a guy whose grandfather was a farmer. He promptly died the year my adventurer was born. Years of boring farm life later, I rolled to see what happened to the adventurer's father, and he died immediately as well, from plague. Four brothers and two sisters. The sisters died from plague. The brothers survived. More boring farm life later, with the only remarkable thing fighting some Lunars on their way out of Old Tarsh, and seeing a big cataclysmic event from around 50 kilometers away. (I think you can guess.)

[styopa]

7 minutes ago, Jason Durall said:

Just as a clarification... starting adventurers will have a bit of experience, but they won't be seasoned veterans on the edge of retirement, or even in their primes. They'll be around 21 or so, with a few skills in the 70%+ range, maybe one or two higher, a handful of spirit magic spells, not a lot of Rune points, and a fleshed-out backstory. They may have fought in a battle or two, seen a few big things, maybe even earned some passions like Loyalty, Hate, Love, and even gotten a bit of Reputation... but there's still a long way to go before they're going to be ready for the Hero Wars. 

And it's possible to be not that experienced at all, if the background generation indicates so. I recently rolled up an adventurer with a "let the dice fall where they may" self-imposed restriction, and got a guy whose grandfather was a farmer. He promptly died the year my adventurer was born. Years of boring farm life later, I rolled to see what happened to the adventurer's father, and he died immediately as well, from plague. Four brothers and two sisters. The sisters died from plague. The brothers survived. More boring farm life later, with the only remarkable thing fighting some Lunars on their way out of Old Tarsh, and seeing a big cataclysmic event from around 50 kilometers away. (I think you can guess.)

Brilliant.  I love this stuff.  The background development will really be a great tool to pull characters into the world.  I look forward to seeing them developed for other regions as well.

 

[g33k]

2 hours ago, styopa said:

Then again, every MMORPG has also (d)evolved away from challenge and progress paradigms.  So probably that's the commercially wiser choice for the mass market.

When you say "the mass market," however, I think the word "the" is mis-applied.  I would suggest that "the" MMORPG market (which I take to mean the customer base) isn't the same as "the" tabletop-RPG market (and smaller games like RQ are even-less-typical).  I don't deny some overlap (even a substantial amount of it!) but they're different-enough that designing either one for the market of the other is a strategic error.

Take a look at D&D4e:  it was pretty clearly informed (in part) by the idea of what-works and what-is-important in MMORPG/videogame contexts.  I believe it was the ONLY edition of D&D that wasn't #1 in the RPG market (in favor of other games that weren't designed to the e-standard).