rules clarification

[jezreel]

question 1 ,

is it OK to ask for rules clarification on this forum-? 

if so, question 2

   I swing at my opponent and get a critical success - he parries and gets success - I get to choose one offensive special effect, say, disarm

opponent now gets to make an opposed roll of his combat style against my ORIGINAL roll- (the critical success) and he would need a critical success of his own that was higher than my original roll but within his critical success bracket ?  this appears to be almost impossible to pull off - if this is a correct interpretation , then it appears that rolling a critical success not only gets you yummy special effects but makes it almost impossible for the opponent to counter them- is this correct? 

question 3

I have read that some GM's only allow "choose location" as a special effect on an offensive critical roll, rather than just for achieving one level of success better on a differential roll

Is this unusual? What do people think from experience works better?

[Baragei]

1. I really, really guess so.

2. Yes, you are correct. Being hit with a critical is as bad in Mythras as its predecessors.

3.It seems to be one of the most common houserules. I go by RAW, but another houserule that seems to have met with some success is to allow for the attacker to shift the location hit to an adjacent one with a single level of success. 

[lawrence.whitaker]

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question 1 ,

is it OK to ask for rules clarification on this forum-?

 

 

Of course!

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if so, question 2

   I swing at my opponent and get a critical success - he parries and gets success - I get to choose one offensive special effect, say, disarm

opponent now gets to make an opposed roll of his combat style against my ORIGINAL roll- (the critical success) and he would need a critical success of his own that was higher than my original roll but within his critical success bracket ?

 

Correct.

 

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this appears to be almost impossible to pull off - if this is a correct interpretation , then it appears that rolling a critical success not only gets you yummy special effects but makes it almost impossible for the opponent to counter them- is this correct?

Correct. As Baragei notes, Criticals can be devastating - and rightly so. This is why choosing the right special effect (and not simply the tiresome and naive 'choose location > head' is important). Scoring a critical doesn't necessarily grant you additional damage as it does in some d100 systems; it opens-up the range of effects you can use and makes challenging routine effects much more difficult.

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question 3

I have read that some GM's only allow "choose location" as a special effect on an offensive critical roll, rather than just for achieving one level of success better on a differential roll

Is this unusual? What do people think from experience works better?

 

Yes, some GMs believe that Choose Location is too powerful as a standard effect. We, the designers, disagree; a competent warrior is trained to strike at different parts of the body, and this is reflected in the rules. There is a pervasive belief that Choose Location > Head is the The One Effect To Rule Them All, but this is only true if...

...you can deliver enough damage to completely incapacitate the opponent - ie, reduce them to 0 or lower Hit Points

...an incapacitating blow is so good that it can't be resisted easily (ie, Endurance vs Attack Roll)

I've seen plenty of Head Strikes turn into wasted opportunities. The most effective SEs are the ones that cannot be easily countered and deny the opponent a chance to retaliate.

Choose Location seems obvious, but Mythras combat is a lot more nuanced that Hit Point attrition; you can end a fight in plenty of other, more creative ways than continually trying to lop-off someone's head. And if you have players that still think Choose Location > Head is the only effect to choose, then I'd suggest that the GM use 'Prepare Counter', along with a variety of other effects to demonstrate some other tactical options.

 Like this

[skoll]

8 hours ago, Baragei said:

another houserule that seems to have met with some success is to allow for the attacker to shift the location hit to an adjacent one with a single level of success. 

This is what we are using, and it made our fights more exiting. We call it Shift Location.

The problem we experienced with Choose Location wasn't everybody always picking head. Instead, after the first hit everybody always targets the wounded hit location.

[jezreel]

I like the idea of Shift Location - you still have the die roll,(which generates unpredictability and  excitement)  but you get an advantage and can use your nouse.

Do GM's usually  allow unintelligent monsters,to pick their combat Special Effects or is there a way to randomise them in such cases- also traps, rock falls, etc

[Mankcam]

13 hours ago, Baragei said:

...another houserule that seems to have met with some success is to allow for the attacker to shift the location hit to an adjacent one with a single level of success. 

This is kinda a version of one of the Aimed Blow rules from the RQ2 rulebook (under Optional Combat Rules in the Appendix). I always thought it was an interesting way to do an aimed blow, but didn't see it appear like this in other additions. Good to know it can be ported easily into the other BRP rules mechanics.

[Y Mab Darogan]

5 hours ago, skoll said:

This is what we are using, and it made our fights more exiting. We call it Shift Location.

The problem we experienced with Choose Location wasn't everybody always picking head. Instead, after the first hit everybody always targets the wounded hit location.

Why is this a problem? Seems quite realistic to me. If you have players who fall back on it too often can't you do as Loz suggests and prep a counter?

[g33k]

4 hours ago, HorusArisen said:

Why is this a problem? Seems quite realistic to me. If you have players who fall back on it too often can't you do as Loz suggests and prep a counter?

I believe the idea is that "choose location" is an unrealistically-large advantage for a single level of success:  you have a moderate advantage, not a wide-open undefended target.  So the attacker can still Choose Location if they have TWO Special Effects, but with a single Special Effect they can only SHIFT (not CHOOSE) the location ...

[threedeesix]

I'll admit that when I first came over from BRP to Mythras, I didn't like the idea of Choose Location being a normal success. But that was just baggage I was bringing over with me, and not based on any type of rational. It wasn't until I was watching a boxing match and got to thinking how these guys pretty much always hit where they're aiming, that I started to see it differently. Heck, the Ref stating, 'no hitting below the belt' implies that these attacks are not random. The same with fencing, unless the opponent deflects the attack, they pretty much hit where they're aiming. In neither case, are these opponents flailing about wildly, they always appear to have a set location in mind when they strike. That's is unless they choose another Special Effect of course. 

The other problem that I see with making Choose Location a critical effect only, is that unlike BRP, which has a pool of General Hit Points which are depleted along with any damage to the various locations, Mythras has body location damage only. Therefore, the quickest way to remove an opponent damage wise, is to do more damage to a single location then they can sustain. If hitting the same location multiple times comes down to random chance, this will really drag out combats. Plus, it would give an unfair advantage to those with large numbers of body locations, as each separate location is really another pool of hit points that have a chance to mitigate some damage.

Now obviously, if a group has already decided to switch over to their own ‘house rules’ and everyone is happy with it, then great, you’re playing correctly. However, for those that are new to Mythras, I would suggest playing it as written and see if you come around. You might just find that it makes sense after all.

Rod

[g33k]

12 hours ago, threedeesix said:

I'll admit that when I first came over from BRP to Mythras, I didn't like the idea of Choose Location being a normal success. But that was just baggage I was bringing over with me, and not based on any type of rational. It wasn't until I was watching a boxing match and got to thinking how these guys pretty much always hit where they're aiming, that I started to see it differently. Heck, the Ref stating, 'no hitting below the belt' implies that these attacks are not random. The same with fencing, unless the opponent deflects the attack, they pretty much hit where they're aiming. In neither case, are these opponents flailing about wildly, they always appear to have a set location in mind when they strike. That's is unless they choose another Special Effect of course. 

See, I don't actually see random-hit-location and the "Choose Location" effect as a decision, "I will aim for the gut" or the like.  It's that a skilled attacker will take the opportunities reflexively -- to SEE the low-line opening on the left is to STRIKE for the low-line opening on the left.  The random location refers to the defender leaving an unintentional opening.

Something that I think would be more-realistic, but less-fun gaming, is the even-more-skilled approach of analyzing a combatant's moves & style for a weakness, then exploiting that weakness (and the whole thing where two skilled combatants try to fake having a weakness, to lure the opponent into "exploiting" it (in a predictable manner) so they in turn can exploit the predictable maneuver.

(The Ultimate Counter, of course, is the Spanish Inquisition)

 

Edited April 19, 2017 by g33k
typo

[skoll]

17 hours ago, HorusArisen said:

Why is this a problem? Seems quite realistic to me. If you have players who fall back on it too often can't you do as Loz suggests and prep a counter?

Realism and entertainment value don't always go hand in hand. In our campaign several boss fights have ended very quickly, when the whole group started hacking at the same hit location. You are right, Prepare counter helps in many of these cases, but it doesn't help when fighting non-humans or in a many vs. one -situation.

The biggest point is, that our group finds Choose Location to be a bit boring. Shift location is simply more fun for us.

[g33k]

5 hours ago, threedeesix said:

... Plus, it would give an unfair advantage to those with large numbers of body locations, as each separate location is really another pool of hit points that have a chance to mitigate some damage.

 

But the many-tentacled-horror SHOULD have an advantage!!!

[threedeesix]

4 hours ago, g33k said:

But the many-tentacled-horror SHOULD have an advantage!!!

They already do, they're a many-tentacled-horror. ;-)

Edited April 19, 2017 by threedeesix

[Raleel]

I implemented Shift Location in our group as well. To me, it felt about right. Spent some time on the math and was satisfied that it was pretty close to what I wanted. 

I didn't get to use Prepare Counter on them, however

another thing I did was put in head armor, but ultimately, I think that did exactly what Skoll experienced - location focusing and driving for the 1d3 turn stun on a Serious Wound.

Whether that was good or not, I don't know, but the players in my group decided they didn't like choose location because going for the head always seemed like the best option for them. I suspect it was because they wanted to deny me the option of going for the head

Edited April 19, 2017 by Doug nordwall

[Baragei]

1 hour ago, Doug nordwall said:

the players in my group decided they didn't like choose location because going for the head always seemed like the best option for them. I suspect it was because they wanted to deny me the option of going for the head

Players are a sneaky lot.

[Raleel]

9 hours ago, g33k said:

But the many-tentacled-horror SHOULD have an advantage!!!

I actually tend to think of it as a disadvantage. Stats aside, many tentacled horrors tend to have more locations. This tends to make the locations have fewer hit points per location. This, in turn, makes it easier to hit wound thresholds. 

I also find this easy to mitigate by saying that the Many-tentacled-horror doesn't suffer the effects of a serious or major wound on his limbs - just the limb is stunned, not the whole thing. 

As a side note, and because I can't remember which Mythras combat thread it was in, but many-tentacled-horrors make very easy to balance BBEGs for Mythras. 1 AP per tentacle, count up the AP in the party, that many tentacles. Done!

[Matt_E]

2 hours ago, Doug nordwall said:

I actually tend to think of it as a disadvantage. Stats aside, many tentacled horrors tend to have more locations. This tends to make the locations have fewer hit points per location. This, in turn, makes it easier to hit wound thresholds. 

I also find this easy to mitigate by saying that the Many-tentacled-horror doesn't suffer the effects of a serious or major wound on his limbs - just the limb is stunned, not the whole thing. 

As a side note, and because I can't remember which Mythras combat thread it was in, but many-tentacled-horrors make very easy to balance BBEGs for Mythras. 1 AP per tentacle, count up the AP in the party, that many tentacles. Done!

Regarding the first assertion, I don't think that follows, strictly speaking.  Although limbs like arms tend to have the lowest (unstated) location multiplier for the overall CON+SIZ tally, to put it in terms of old RQ3, that multiplier could be anything you like, really--and in Mythras, where there is no "Total HP" tally based on the average of CON and SIZ, more locations of a given type = more HP, period.

Yes, I like the "Variant Undead" creature ability, so to speak, that allows lost limbs to be merely an inconvenience.  This is also like the ability Flora, found in Monster Island and Classic Fantasy.

Yes, the Multilimbed (Multiheaded?) creature ability is a nice balancing point for a big creature versus a party.

 

 

[Raleel]

Oh certainly, it can be different. It often isn't, though. Insect derivatives tend to have more legs, and lower hit points per leg. Octopuses might not, for example. Really depends if they get an arm multiplier or a leg one.