Yinkin Shadowcats god, where is it's animal part

[Pheres]

As i have understood reading the RQG rules, Yinkin is the shadowcats god, an animal god, and due to it's relationship with Orlanth, also an Orlanthi god.

So Yinkin seems to have a kind of duality, both an Air god and an Animal god.

A lot of things let me think so. For example, Orlanth cult and Fathers of beasts cult are both strongly associated with Yinkin cult.

But in RQG, only the Orlanthi part seems to be described.

According to Telmor Cult, in the Bestiary book, that is the only animal cult i have seen described, Yinkin cult have to be linked to the spirit world.

But there is no shaman in his cult!

[PhilHibbs]

There's no rule that says animal cults have to be shamanic. Sure, a lot of them are, but not all.

Edited July 30, 2018 by PhilHibbs

[simonh]

It's a good question and you're thinking along the right lines.The Telmor cult is an ancestral religion for descendants of Telmor. On the other hand the Yinkin cult in the rulebook is for Orlanthi people who want to worship Yinkin, the half-brother of Orlanth. By and large the Orlathi are a theistic people and so their worship of Yinkin is theistic.

There may very well be shamanic worship of Yinkin, and there may very well be ancestral worship of Yinkin by hsunchen descendants of Yinkin somewhere in Glorantha if such actually exist, but among the Orlanthi of Dragon Pass the dominant form of worship is theistic as described by the cult in the rulebook.

Heck it's even possible there was in the past an ancestral shamanic practice of Yinkin worship, which was absorbed into Orlanthi culture. Some Orlanthi might have the blood of Yinkin in their veins, but at this point it would be a distant relationship. It's certainly something that could be a lot of fun to explore in your game though.

[Pheres]

6 minutes ago, simonh said:

It's a good question and you're thinking along the right lines.The Telmor cult is an ancestral religion for descendants of Telmor. On the other hand the Yinkin cult in the rulebook is for Orlanthi people who want to worship Yinkin, the half-brother of Orlanth. By and large the Orlathi are a theistic people and so their worship of Yinkin is theistic.

There may very well be shamanic worship of Yinkin, and there may very well be ancestral worship of Yinkin by hsunchen descendants of Yinkin somewhere in Glorantha if such actually exist, but among the Orlanthi of Dragon Pass the dominant form of worship is theistic as described by the cult in the rulebook.

Heck it's even possible there was in the past an ancestral shamanic practice of Yinkin worship, which was absorbed into Orlanthi culture. Some Orlanthi might have the blood of Yinkin in their veins, but at this point it would be a distant relationship. It's certainly something that could be a lot of fun to explore in your game though.

Thanks, i aggree, and will speak to my game master about it! (I am playing a Yinkin initiate!)

[Joerg]

Yinkin isn't an air god, either - he is a mountain child, like Orlanth, Quivin, or Inora. That (and the otherworldly height of his mother) is how he became a father of clouds.

His link to the spirit world is problematic. Sure, he shares his father with Hsunchen spirits like Telmor or Basmol, but he chose to stick with his mother's kin, and with his half-sibling Orlanth. This means that the spirit beasts tend to give him grief at times.

Much of this story stems from the strictly separated Three Otherworlds that dominated the publications of the Hero Wars/HeroQuest1 period, and this has been toned down quite a bit. His problem with Telmor has another source - Telmor is a canine, and the Bad Dogs are old enemies of Yinkin and Orlanth's village. (IIRC Mastakos was a victim of them once, too.)

Yinkin sided with the Vingkotlings against the Enchanter (who controlled all the beasts in one conflict in the Storm Age, but was thwarted by the Plundering of Aron, a venture of the Thunder Brothers to bring back all the beasts), once again siding with the gods rather than the shamans. I don't think that there are any alynx shamans or alynx spirits to ally (not even to Kolat's shamans). If Yinkin ever had a spirit side, it may have been lost when the Bad Dogs wounded him.

Yinkin's amorous exploits wouldn't stop him from mating with spirit entities, but any hypothetical offspring from that may be alienated from their father.

 

There are plenty beasts that aren't tied to Hsunchen. Odayla's bear aspect is quite separate from the Rathori bear hsunchen of Fronela (from whom Harrek comes), and there is a Pelorian bear king god further west, Arakang, and a bear mother further north, Ertelenari (who appears on the Gods Wall). All bears share an affinity to storm, but not necessarily to Orlanth.

 

 

[Pheres]

3 minutes ago, Joerg said:

His link to the spirit world is problematic. Sure, he shares his father with Hsunchen spirits like Telmor or Basmol, but he chose to stick with his mother's kin, and with his half-sibling Orlanth. This means that the spirit beasts tend to give him grief at times.

 

 

 

But his grand parents are very closed to him, according to the fact that their cult is an associated cult of Yinkin and they provide Yinkin initiate with the Transform rune. Plus like Odayla and Daka Fal, Yinkin cult is an ancestor worshiper cult... So i think that's their is some duality in him...

[simonh]

13 minutes ago, Pheres said:

But his grand parents are very closed to him, according to the fact that their cult is an associated cult of Yinkin and they provide Yinkin initiate with the Transform rune. Plus like Odayla and Daka Fal, Yinkin cult is an ancestor worshiper cult... So i think that's their is some duality in him...

The Yinkin and Odayla cults in the rulebook are not ancestor worship. That's one of the points I made in my post, distinguishing the Yinkin cult from the Telmor cult. It may be that some Orlanthi might have descent from Odalya and/or Yinkin, but that is not a condition of joining those cults and it's not the form the cult takes.

Edited July 30, 2018 by simonh

[Pheres]

15 minutes ago, simonh said:

The Yinkin and Odayla cults in the rulebook are not ancestor worship.

According to Daka Fal associated cults part, p 291 in RQG: "As with Odayla, Yinkin is a fellow ancestor worshipping cult"

[Joerg]

5 minutes ago, Pheres said:

According to Daka Fal associated cults part, p 291 in RQG: "As with Odayla, Yinkin is a fellow ancestor worshipping cult"

But Daka Fal is about Man Rune ancestor worship.

It appears that Yinkin (in the shape of Tol) did sire a number of human lineages, at least one of which ended up in the Berennethtelli tribe and among Harmast Barefoot's ancestors. Sartar's lineage may have been affected, too - not just his granddaughter Onelisin but also her daughters were alynx-women.

Ancestor spirits are an entirely different company than (hsunchen) beast spirits.

[simonh]

12 minutes ago, Pheres said:

According to Daka Fal associated cults part, p 291 in RQG: "As with Odayla, Yinkin is a fellow ancestor worshipping cult"

I'm not sure I buy that. Neither of the actual cults mentions this, and neither of them asserts an associate cult status with Daka Fal.

I suppose it just makes my supposition about ancestor worshiping forms of these cults being assimilated into Orlanthi society semi-official.

[Tindalos]

This is probably related to the Serpentbeast Brotherhood (BoHM 38) a hsunchen alliance who tried to force Yinkin to be part of them.

When he favoured his kinship with Orlanth over his father, he lost his shamans.

Possibly there is some obscure tribe of Alynx hsunchen out there who have different myths, resulting in them having shamans but no allegiance to Orlanth or his kin.

[jeffjerwin]

6 hours ago, simonh said:

I'm not sure I buy that. Neither of the actual cults mentions this, and neither of them asserts an associate cult status with Daka Fal.

I suppose it just makes my supposition about ancestor worshiping forms of these cults being assimilated into Orlanthi society semi-official.

Yinkin is the lineal ancestor of several Sartarite and Hendriki clans. In fact, Hendrik himself was a descendant of Gavren, son of Yinkin. But he's generally worshipped theistically, like Ivarne, Heort, Hendrik, and Sartar, along with all the other ancestors a clan might have.

[Pheres]

8 hours ago, Joerg said:

Yinkin isn't an air god, either - he is a mountain child, like Orlanth, Quivin, or Inora. That (and the otherworldly height of his mother) is how he became a father of clouds.

I apologize, due to my low english skill level i haven't written as intended... I would like to says that Yinkin is both an animal god and an orlanthi one!

7 hours ago, Tindalos said:

When he favoured his kinship with Orlanth over his father, he lost his shamans.

I am not sure that Yinkin himself have decided to give up it's animal part when he choose Orlanth prior to his father. He don't renounced to his grands parents relationship (according to the fact that his cult is associated with their one). I am not sure that every animal god is friendly with all other. So Yinkin could be at war with his father and others beasts gods, but stay an beast god himself! I think that he love Orlanth a lot and choose is side prior to one other, but stay like he is...

One thing that i think is that Yinkin is a very loyal personage. When he choose Orlanth side, he's never betrayed him... Loyalty seem to be one important thing to him. Perhaps he give up his father because his father try to force him to do something Yinkin really don't wanted. But i am not sure that he could done it without that kind of thing... He never give his grands parents up...

1 hour ago, jeffjerwin said:

Yinkin is the lineal ancestor of several Sartarite and Hendriki clans. In fact, Hendrik himself was a descendant of Gavren, son of Yinkin. But he's generally worshipped theistically, like Ivarne, Heort, Hendrik, and Sartar, along with all the other ancestors a clan might have.

As i understood "generally worshipped theistically" means that he could be worshipped in the shaman way, no? Plus, for example, Daka Fal shamans are also priests of his cult. So it's possible to be both a priest and a shaman.

 

[jeffjerwin]

27 minutes ago, Pheres said:

One thing that i think is that Yinkin is a very loyal personage. When he choose Orlanth side, he's never betrayed him... Loyalty seem to be one important thing to him. Perhaps he give up his father because his father try to force him to do something Yinkin really don't wanted. But i am not sure that he could done it without that kind of thing... He never give his grands parents up...

Fralar the predator does not seem to have been a strongly paternal figure; he mostly just wanders around fathering meat-eating beast ancestors. I think Yinkin really never knew him - and Umath was either absent or dead in Orlanth's childhood as well. They were raised more or less by Kerofin as a single parent.

[Julian Lord]

57 minutes ago, Pheres said:

As i understood "generally worshipped theistically" means that he could be worshipped in the shaman way, no?

As far as that's concerned, it's been a bit of a contentious issue for many years.

--

Regarding shadowcats, they're quite closely associated with at least three gods in the pantheon, Yinkin, Odayla, and Heler -- and given Yinkin's notoriety, it would hardly be a surprise if there were other alynx subcults round about.

I'd probably prefer to link any shamanic magic with some children of Yinkin born from his "adventuring" in the spirit world before the world was broken, rather than with Yinkin directly.

It's probably a good thing that the old Hero Wars/HeroQuest 1 strict partition between deities, spirits, and essences has been blurred, but it's still a good way to approach some of the more abstract exceptions to general rules -- though you might want to keep them at more than arm's length in your gaming.

[Tindalos]

1 hour ago, Pheres said:

I am not sure that Yinkin himself have decided to give up it's animal part when he choose Orlanth prior to his father. He don't renounced to his grands parents relationship (according to the fact that his cult is associated with their one). I am not sure that every animal god is friendly with all other. So Yinkin could be at war with his father and others beasts gods, but stay an beast god himself! I think that he love Orlanth a lot and choose is side prior to one other, but stay like he is...

 

Not all animal deities have shamans.

While Telmor does, it's because of the culture of his followers, rather than him being an animal. The Yinkini have no need for shamans, and their mythology provides an explanation why they don't have one.

[Pheres]

In some replies of this thread i can read that Shaman worshipping and theistical worshipping seems to be two different and not compatible ways.

But p 306-307 in RQG we can read that Yelm have both shamans and priests in his cult. And nothing says that a Yelm shaman can not become also a Yelm priest...

[Julian Lord]

11 minutes ago, Pheres said:

In some replies of this thread i can read that Shaman worshipping and theistical worshipping seems to be two different and not compatible ways.

But p 306-307 in RQG we can read that Yelm have both shamans and priests in his cult. And nothing says that a Yelm shaman can not become also a Yelm priest...

Yes, well it's been a contentious issue for a while.

RuneQuest 2 allowed shaman-priests who had both shamanic magic and Rune Magic, but realistically it was pretty much impossible to achieve it in the game.

Hero Wars and HeroQuest fairly basically didn't allow it.

But again, to get back into the theorycrafting, there are some unusual entities who are both gods and spirits -- the one over which all of the arguments came to a head over, in the history of the games, is BTW Zola Fel, the river deity of Pavis city and Prax. So I'd guess that in order to be in a cult where it's possible to be a shaman or a Rune Priest within that same cult, or even both simultaneously, the cult would need to revolve around one of those, and personally I'd expect the possibility to be explicitly allowed in the write-up, or I'd disallow it.

But as for Yinkin more specifically, well he's a god and so he only provides Rune Magic, but he did and he does go frolicking around in all sorts of strange places, and so it's certainly not impossible that there are some cat spirits that he's fathered.

If someone wanted to play a spirit-magic using Yinkin-type Sartari character in my game, I'd probably play it so that in the character's initiation rites, the character encountered and befriended an untameable spirit cat somewhere out in the mundane world that became the character's ally in life. Not a fetch, but a Spirit Ally in the middle world with all sorts of feline personality tricks and so on.

[Pheres]

34 minutes ago, Julian Lord said:

Yes, well it's been a contentious issue for a while.

RuneQuest 2 allowed shaman-priests who had both shamanic magic and Rune Magic, but realistically it was pretty much impossible to achieve it in the game.

Hero Wars and HeroQuest fairly basically didn't allow it.

But again, to get back into the theorycrafting, there are some unusual entities who are both gods and spirits

Thanks!

About entities that are both gods end spirits, do you think at the Gretear Entities, for example, like Daka Fal and the Fathers of Beasts?

36 minutes ago, Julian Lord said:

But as for Yinkin more specifically, well he's a god and so he only provides Rune Magic, but he did and he does go frolicking around in all sorts of strange places, and so it's certainly not impossible that there are some cat spirits that he's fathered.

From your point of view, if i understand well, there can exist subcults of Yinkin that worship one of his son, who is a spirit, and have shamans?

[Pheres]

22 hours ago, Joerg said:

Yinkin isn't an air god

But in the Glorantha Sourcebook he appears in the Deities of Air chapter, p 120. Where Air gods are listed...

[Tindalos]

1 hour ago, Pheres said:

But p 306-307 in RQG we can read that Yelm have both shamans and priests in his cult. And nothing says that a Yelm shaman can not become also a Yelm priest...

Yelm is a good example of how things depend on culture.

The Yelm cult in RQG is how he's worshipped by the Pure Horse Tribe/Grazelanders. It's very unlikely that the Dara Happans would have shamans of Yelm.

Just now, Pheres said:

Thanks!

About entities that are both gods end spirits, do you think at the Gretear Entities, for example, like Daka Fal and the Fathers of Beasts?

From your point of view, if i understand well, there can exist subcults of Yinkin that worship one of his son, who is a spirit, and have shamans?

I would say it's possible. Certainly if you want one in your Glorantha, then go ahead.

Some clan may view Gavran as taking after his mother, and a source of Yinkini shamans.

[Julian Lord]

13 minutes ago, Pheres said:

Thanks!

About entities that are both gods end spirits, do you think at the Gretear Entities, for example, like Daka Fal and the Fathers of Beasts?

No, it has nothing to do with "greater" versus "lesser", but it has to do with the extent to which an entity was destroyed in the Gods War and the Greater Darkness. Very very few entities retained dual divine and spirit natures. Yinkin is not one of them.

13 minutes ago, Pheres said:

From your point of view, if i understand well, there can exist subcults of Yinkin that worship one of his son, who is a spirit, and have shamans?

No, but a separate spirit tradition could (or might) exist having familiarity with such spirit cat offspring, and individual persons could exist having special individual relationships with such a spirit.

These would not to my mind constitute subcults of Yinkin, but an Orlanthi who had befriended a spirit cat might be viewed as a friend by the Yinkin cultists, and so be treated as if he were "one of us", even though magically and ritually and magically he wouldn't be, nor would he participate in the Yinkini Rites.

Edited July 31, 2018 by Julian Lord

[Joerg]

4 minutes ago, Pheres said:

But in the Glorantha Sourcebook he appears in the Deities of Air chapter, p 120. Where Air gods are listed...

Yinkin is part of the Storm Pantheon, as are (nonlisted) deities like Elmal the Sun God, Mastakos the Charioteer (a water deity), or Chalana Arroy, Issaries and Lhankor Mhy, and most of Ernalda's Earth pantheon.

He has one Middle Air aspect, as father of the Toling clouds. Other than that, he is a down to earth lover, fighter and hunter, patiently waiting for prey to show up (other people might say he's napping).

[Zozotroll]

How many of the gods have both Priests and shamans?  Kyger litor is the only one I can think of, but likely I have missed some of the others.  Or just old and dont remember

[Zozotroll]

How many of the gods have both Priests and shamans?  Kyger litor is the only one I can think of, but likely I have missed some of the others.  Or just old and dont remember

 

And I suppose she doesnt really have both, if you are one you are also the other, but then troll dont believe in following human norms, why should we?