RQG Sorcery - Inscription Question

[Austin]

So while trying to test the munchkinery of Linked spells (for that other thread) I went looking in RQG's Sorcery chapter for the Spell Matrix Enchantment. There's no equivalent spell description, but rather a generalized section on p.390, "Inscribing Spells." The text I'm concerned with is:

Quote

For each point of POW added to the inscription, the base strength, range, or duration of the spell is increased by 1, without requiring any manipulation by the sorcerer. This enables the sorcerer to create spells with greater intensity than their Free INT would allow.

My questions are: How does this affect the MP cost of the spell? Can an Inscription be linked with other spell matrices?

I see a few interpretations for MP:

1. They do not cost MP, and the inscribed levels are added after the sorcerer's manipulation.
2. They do not cost MP, and the inscribed levels are added before the sorcerer's manipulation (so further manipulations are more expensive, I think?).
3. They do cost MP, and only remove the need for the sorcerer to manipulate the spell.

To my eye, (2) seems to be the closest to a RAW interpretation, but as a GM I would probably play with (3), since that seems the most balanced. Interpretation (3) makes sorcery inscriptions basically parallel to the spirit magic Spell Matrix Enchantment (but without an actual spell description, unlike both sorcery and spirit magic's Magic Point Enchantments). I'm curious what others think the correct RAW interpretation is here, as well as if there's other options I've missed.

Personally, I think the RAW is that sorcery inscriptions can't be linked with spirit magic or Rune magic spell matrices, and that is part of why they weren't written up as a spell description. As a GM, I'm inclined to allow a linked matrix by an adventurer who has access to multiple methods of magic (such as an initiate of Lhankor Mhy or the Seven Mothers & other Lunar cults) for MGF, but the consequences and potential munchkinery of that choice are best left for the other thread.

Edited August 28, 2018 by Crel

[David Scott]

2 hours ago, Crel said:

So while trying to test the munchkinery of Linked spells (for that other thread) I went looking in RQG's Sorcery chapter for the Spell Matrix Enchantment. There's no equivalent spell description, but rather a generalized section on p.390, "Inscribing Spells." 

This is something different from standard enchantments. This allows you to keep spells external to your free INT, it's clearly a form of enchantment but not Spell Matrix Enchantment. It's the classic grimoire or scroll magic, only usable by the owner.

Spell Matrix Enchantment is actually Spirit Magic Spell Matrix Enchantment.

It does say in the enchantments section "There are other enchantments"

We find the list of enchantments available to adventurers as part of their cult. We don't have any sorcery schools detailed so that's clearly missing. Likewise Sorcery Spell Matrix Enchantment is clearly missing from the base book, it's not really needed.

Quote

My questions are: How does this affect the MP cost of the spell?

page 390 says

Quote

For each point of POW added to the inscription, the base strength, range, or duration of the spell is increased by 1, without requiring any manipulation by the sorcerer. This enables the sorcerer to create spells with a greater intensity than their Free INT would allow.

For example a page of a grimoire inscribed with Mend Flesh with 4 points of POW could spend the normal 3 MPs to cast it, but it would automatically have Strength 4 and heal 1D6 to a location without manipulation. if the the caster adds in another 3 MPs (needs 4 Free INT), it would achieve Strength 8 for 2D6 to a location. Alternatively, they could keep the Strength to 1 and get a Range of 50 metres 

Quote

Can an Inscription be linked with other spell matrices?

No, it's not a matrix.

Quote

I see a few interpretations for MP:

you only pay for the mp needed, it doesn't make manipulation more expense later otherwise it would defeat the point of POW sacrificed.

My question would be, can you add more POW later.

Edited August 28, 2018 by David Scott
corrected base post error

[PhilHibbs]

So I know a spell, but since I haven't mastered the rune and technique it costs me 8 base MP plus 4 MP per additional intensity. I make a scroll with 2 Strength. How many MP does it cost me to cast?

[David Scott]

29 minutes ago, PhilHibbs said:

So I know a spell, but since I haven't mastered the rune and technique it costs me 8 base MP plus 4 MP per additional intensity. I make a scroll with 2 Strength. How many MP does it cost me to cast?

Assuming you mean a 2 POW inscribed scroll, not mastered rune x2, not mastered technique x2, so it's a 2 point spell = 8mps

It costs you 8 mps to cast, with free manipulation of 2 intensity. To manipulate it to intensity 3 +2mps x4 =8mps = total 16mps.

 

 

[Austin]

1 hour ago, David Scott said:

This is something different from standard enchantments. This allows you to keep spells external to your free INT, it's clearly a form of enchantment but not Spell Matrix Enchantment. It's the classic grimoire or scroll magic, only usable by the owner.

I picked that up; I meant to use the Spirit Magic example as a parallel to sorcery's inscriptions.

1 hour ago, David Scott said:

It does say in the enchantments section "There are other enchantments"

Shh... That may be one of my disappointments with RQG Core  Not worth getting into here!

Although, I will say that I do like this inscription rule, and just giving it to everyone instead of making it another spell to be learned and mucked with. It seems simpler and a bit more player-friendly than previous iterations.

1 hour ago, David Scott said:

For example a page of a grimoire inscribed with Mend Flesh with 3 points of POW could spend the normal 3 MPs to cast it, but it would automatically have Strength 4 (base intensity 1 + 3 POW) and heal 1D6 to a location without manipulation. if the the caster adds in another 3 MPs (needs 4 Free INT), it would achieve Strength 8 for 2D6 to a location. Alternatively, they could keep the Strength to 1 and get a Range of 50 metres (base intensity 1 + 3 POW)

Just to make sure I understand correctly...

It requires 3MP because Mend Flesh has two Runes and one Technique associated; this is always the base cost of Mend Flesh. That spell has strength 1. The 3 POW included in the inscription increases this to a total intensity 4 spell, with 4 strength. Due to the spell description, this 3MP Mend Flesh heals the target location for 1D6 HP. The caster could spend additional MP up to his Free INT to manipulate the strength or range higher. I don't understand why the caster would need 4 Free INT to add 3MP (is that a typo?), since the basic sorcery rule is +1MP=1 Free INT required, except when a Rune or Technique is unmastered.

Provided that's correct, the interpretation I took ([3] in the OP) was that by inscribing extra intensity of the spell, the sorcerer gets that intensity, plus his Free INT, but still has to pay full MP for the effect. So, if he has 6 Free INT and is casting Mend Flesh with the above inscription, he could cast an intensity 10 Mend Flesh at maximum, which would cost him 12MP. Base 1 (3MP) + Free INT 6 (6MP) + Inscription 3 (3MP) = Intensity 10 (12MP). On this interpretation, the main benefit of the inscription is gaining extra "Free Intensity" to manipulate the spell with (although the caster still needs to come up with the MP required).

Two further questions:

1. How much POW does that Mend Flesh inscription cost to enchant? My understanding of 390 is that it would cost 4 POW; 1 for the base, to store the spell within, and then 3 POW for the "Free Intensity."
2. Do you have to choose what the inscribed intensity adds to when you enchant the inscription? At first I read "base strength, range, or duration" exclusively (so, those 3 POW would need to all be strength, or be 2 strength, 1 range, etc), but your interpretation seems to be that it is flexible.

Most of my understanding was from trying to draw parallels to the spirit magic version, probably because of my RQ3+Homebrew brain. Very likely I'm wrong!

And, of course, thanks kindly for your detailed reply.

[David Scott]

25 minutes ago, Crel said:

Just to make sure I understand correctly...

It requires 3MP because Mend Flesh has two Runes and one Technique associated; this is always the base cost of Mend Flesh. That spell has strength 1. The 3 POW included in the inscription increases this to a total intensity 4 spell, with 4 strength. Due to the spell description, this 3MP Mend Flesh heals the target location for 1D6 HP. The caster could spend additional MP up to his Free INT to manipulate the strength or range higher.

yes

25 minutes ago, Crel said:

I don't understand why the caster would need 4 Free INT to add 3MP (is that a typo?), since the basic sorcery rule is +1MP=1 Free INT required, except when a Rune or Technique is unmastered.

oops, the spell is free for the first 4 levels of Intensity, then another 4 levels gets it to 8 requiring 4 Free Int, another 4 levels is 4 mps.

25 minutes ago, Crel said:

Provided that's correct, the interpretation I took ([3] in the OP) was that by inscribing extra intensity of the spell, the sorcerer gets that intensity, plus his Free INT, but still has to pay full MP for the effect. So, if he has 6 Free INT and is casting Mend Flesh with the above inscription, he could cast an intensity 10 Mend Flesh at maximum, which would cost him 12MP. Base 1 (3MP) + Free INT 6 (6MP) + Inscription 3 (3MP) = Intensity 10 (12MP). On this interpretation, the main benefit of the inscription is gaining extra "Free Intensity" to manipulate the spell with (although the caster still needs to come up with the MP required).

Two further questions:

1. How much POW does that Mend Flesh inscription cost to enchant? My understanding of 390 is that it would cost 4 POW; 1 for the base, to store the spell within, and then 3 POW for the "Free Intensity."

yes

1. Do you have to choose what the inscribed intensity adds to when you enchant the inscription? At first I read "base strength, range, or duration" exclusively (so, those 3 POW would need to all be strength, or be 2 strength, 1 range, etc), but your interpretation seems to be that it is flexible.

Now I've reread it, It's ambiguous.

 

 

[PhilHibbs]

7 hours ago, PhilHibbs said:

So I know a spell, but since I haven't mastered the rune and technique it costs me 8 base MP plus 4 MP per additional intensity. I make a scroll with 2 Strength. How many MP does it cost me to cast?

 

6 hours ago, David Scott said:

Assuming you mean a 2 POW inscribed scroll, not mastered rune x2, not mastered technique x2, so it's a 2 point spell = 8mps

It costs you 8 mps to cast, with free manipulation of 2 intensity. To manipulate it to intensity 3 +2mps x4 =8mps = total 16mps.

I think it's 12, 8 points for the first point of Intensity (2 runes/techniques, x2, x2 again), and 4 for the second (1 x 2 x 2).

If I then master the rune or the technique, I assume I can then cast it using the scroll for 6 MP. And when I master the other one, it comes down to 3 MP. It would be rather unfair for the scroll to be forever gimped by my inexperience when I made it.

[Gryphaea]

I am imagining that Malkioni liturgists have personal copies of the Abiding Book which have the all 'official' spells contained in it which they then activate individually by sacrificing power. I wonder if  there could be a communal 'ordination ceremony' for liturgists were they are inducted and the congregation sacrifices POW to activate their book for them so that they have all the spells their community will need - no doubt someone more learned than I will shoot this idea down.

s  

[Joerg]

15 minutes ago, Gryphaea said:

I am imagining that Malkioni liturgists have personal copies of the Abiding Book which have the all 'official' spells contained in it which they then activate individually by sacrificing power. I wonder if  there could be a communal 'ordination ceremony' for liturgists were they are inducted and the congregation sacrifices POW to activate their book for them so that they have all the spells their community will need - no doubt someone more learned than I will shoot this idea down.

s  

The whole concept of Malkioni liturgists may have gone into non-canonical territory (which is admittedly ironic for a profession that consists of interpreting canon...).

I still feel that orthodox Malkioni (Hrestoli or Rokari) should have something like Battle Magic in a sorcerous way rather than from spirits.

[PhilHibbs]

I did rather like the MRQ II system of having a skill in a grimoire. I think HQ had a similar mechanic.

[David Scott]

41 minutes ago, PhilHibbs said:

 

I think it's 12, 8 points for the first point of Intensity (2 runes/techniques, x2, x2 again), and 4 for the second (1 x 2 x 2).

If I then master the rune or the technique, I assume I can then cast it using the scroll for 6 MP. And when I master the other one, it comes down to 3 MP. It would be rather unfair for the scroll to be forever gimped by my inexperience when I made it.

Do you think the second value is already doubled? (+1/+2). Would make sense. 

[David Scott]

27 minutes ago, Gryphaea said:

I am imagining that Malkioni liturgists have personal copies of the Abiding Book which have the all 'official' spells contained in it which they then activate individually by sacrificing power. I wonder if  there could be a communal 'ordination ceremony' for liturgists were they are inducted and the congregation sacrifices POW to activate their book for them so that they have all the spells their community will need - no doubt someone more learned than I will shoot this idea down.

s  

While a nice idea, I suspect the transcribing is the enchanting ritual. Not getting them to do the hard work seems lacking in MGM’s and gives no scope for fumbling and producing something “bad”.

[David Scott]

12 minutes ago, Joerg said:

The whole concept of Malkioni liturgists may have gone into non-canonical territory (which is admittedly ironic for a profession that consists of interpreting canon...).

I still feel that orthodox Malkioni (Hrestoli or Rokari) should have something like Battle Magic in a sorcerous way rather than from spirits.

Although they may just use sorcerous enchantments and have unmastered runes and techniques, making magic expensive. Though are unlikely to use inscriptions. But let’s wait to see what the sorcery book says. 

[PhilHibbs]

39 minutes ago, David Scott said:

Do you think the second value is already doubled? (+1/+2). Would make sense. 

Second value? Not sure which value you are referring to there!

The base spell with 1 Intensity costs the same MP as the number of Runes or Techniques. So a Summon Fire spell costs 2. A spell with Combine Darkness & Truth costs 3.

Each additional point of Intensity costs 1MP.

ALL of these costs are doubled if you don't have one of the Runes or Techniques mastered. If you have TWO not mastered, they are all doubled again.

So a spell with 1 Rune and 1 Technique costs 2 base +1 per Intensity; with the Rune or the Technique not mastered it costs 4 + 2 per, with both Rune AND Technique not mastered, it costs 8 + 4 per.

Is this not how it works? So a 2-Intensity spell with 1 Rune and 1 Technique, neither mastered, costs 12. 8 for the first point, 4 for the second.

Edited August 28, 2018 by PhilHibbs

[metcalph]

2 hours ago, Joerg said:

I still feel that orthodox Malkioni (Hrestoli or Rokari) should have something like Battle Magic in a sorcerous way rather than from spirits.

It would be much easier to provide a sorcerous justification for learning and casting such magics.  Rather than call them spirit magics, they are "this world magics" as they can be inferred from the mortal world and don't need any spirits to be learned or cast (this is the cast for many spirit magic spells in RQG).  Divine spells are "next world magics" and don't necessarily require the worship of a God to learn (this isn't in the rules so I'm tossing out the idea but the affinities are there).  Sorcery spells are abstracted versions of the magics of this world and the next and hence superior to both.

So what needs to be worked out are:

• How people learn spirit magic in a Malkioni society (Loskalm, Seshnela and God Forgot).
• Whether sorcery techniques and runes be used to improve spirit (and rune) magics - My guess is not as effectively as the sorcery spells.  There are cases in the Entekosiad and the Glorious ReAscent where Philosophers work with myths: Khormesha and Verlotina).

[womble]

Thanks for pointing out (to those of us who hadn't noticed) that the Inscription increases the base  attributes of the spell, so the additional Intensity doesn't require further MP to power it.

p384

Quote

A sorcerer may manipulate spells...

All sorcery spells have an automatic intensity of 1 in each of these parameters, at no additional cost.

The intensity of a spell can be increased with additional magic points. For each increase in the intensity of the spell, the caster can increase one of these categories by 1 level.

p390

Quote

For each point of POW added to the inscription, the base strength, range, or duration of the spell is increased by 1, without requiring any manipulation by the sorcerer...

(my emphasis).

My reading of that initially also inferred that the decision as to which parameter of the spell is boosted would be made at the time of committing the POW to the Inscription (and I'm still inclined that way because if it was assigned to the paramaters ad hoc it would just say "...the base Intensity..."), but I can see how it can be read as permitting the 'Intensity' in the book to be used for any parameter on an ad hoc basis when casting.

[PhilHibbs]

27 minutes ago, womble said:

Thanks for pointing out (to those of us who hadn't noticed) that the Inscription increases the base  attributes of the spell, so the additional Intensity doesn't require further MP to power it.

Eh? I don't understand. You seem to be implying that the scroll reduces the MP cost of a spell at a given intensity level. I don't see how that works.

[womble]

Above in this thread, it seems to me that this is what was being implied, and I think that the chain of logic goes:

1. Increased Intensity costs MP
2. 1 point of each parameter is included in the first point of Intensity "...at no extra cost...". [This sets the 'base' (absent Inscribed spell)].
3. A POW-boosted Inscribed spell makes the base [attributes] higher "...without requiring manipulation..."

Therefore using the increased [attributes] of the Grimoire-copy of the spell doesn't require MP.

If the Inscription didn't say "...the base [attributes]...", it'd need to say something about increasing the limit of manipulation by adding to the effective/available Free INT. But since the base parameters are free, and the Inscription increases that base...

[HreshtIronBorne]

Would that mean that a Lhankor Mhy could slowly build up a Boom of Kargan Tor Duration 20 matrix or would it be Intensity 20 and then you could use that 'base' of 20 for strength, range, or duration manipulations when you cast?

[PhilHibbs]

8 minutes ago, womble said:

Above in this thread, it seems to me that this is what was being implied, and I think that the chain of logic goes:

1. Increased Intensity costs MP
2. 1 point of each parameter is included in the first point of Intensity "...at no extra cost...". [This sets the 'base' (absent Inscribed spell)].
3. A POW-boosted Inscribed spell makes the base [attributes] higher "...without requiring manipulation..."

Therefore using the increased [attributes] of the Grimoire-copy of the spell doesn't require MP.

If the Inscription didn't say "...the base [attributes]...", it'd need to say something about increasing the limit of manipulation by adding to the effective/available Free INT. But since the base parameters are free, and the Inscription increases that base...

Woah! I would be astonished if that was the intention.

So, for example, for 4 POW I could make a scroll of Drain Soul with a base Strength of 4. When I cast it, assuming I have both Magic and Dispel mastered, that spell only costs 2 MP to cast with a Strength of 4, and takes effect on my DEX SR + 4 (of the subsequent round).

I guess... compared to an initiate getting a Rune Point for a point of POW, maybe that is ok.

[PhilHibbs]

3 minutes ago, HreshtIronBorne said:

Would that mean that a Lhankor Mhy could slowly build up a Boom of Kargan Tor Duration 20 matrix or would it be Intensity 20 and then you could use that 'base' of 20 for strength, range, or duration manipulations when you cast?

The former, "For each point of POW added to the inscription, the base strength, range, or duration of the spell is increased by 1, without requiring any manipulation by the sorcerer."

You have to fix the manipulation into the scroll.

Edited August 29, 2018 by PhilHibbs

[HreshtIronBorne]

So, you could make a matrix that has a boosted duration, say 20 for a year. Then you could manipulate whatever strength you could muster with your Free Int and a crapton of MP storage. Lol

[Austin]

9 hours ago, PhilHibbs said:

You seem to be implying that the scroll reduces the MP cost of a spell at a given intensity level.

My understanding (based on @David Scott's explanations) is that the extra POW on an inscription doesn't reduce the MP required, but gives "Free Intensity." So, the sorcerer has to pay for the base MP cost of the spell, then gets free intensity to manipulate it with equal to the extra POW on his inscription. After, he spends 1MP per intensity manipulated (or more with Runes/Techniques unmastered) as normal, to a max of Free INT. To me, this does seem to be an accurate reading of p.390 RAW.

Initially, my interpretation was that the bonus POW basically added extra Free INT when casting the inscribed spell. So, an inscription with 3 extra POW could be manipulated 3 additional times beyond Free INT alone. I might still use that as an actual rule when I play, but I think above is a more accurate reading of the text.

5 minutes ago, HreshtIronBorne said:

Would that mean that a Lhankor Mhy could slowly build up a Boom of Kargan Tor Duration 20 matrix or would it be Intensity 20 and then you could use that 'base' of 20 for strength, range, or duration manipulations when you cast?

Basically yes, I think. I'm not sure if you have to assign the bonus intensity into strength, duration, or range when casting, or when enchanting the inscription. But in either case, you'd need to sacrifice 21 POW to make that inscription (1 as the base cost for an inscription, and then 20 for the bonus). There doesn't seem to be a ruling on if that all must be spent at once; my inclination is to take the most restrictive reading and say that since it doesn't say it, the sorcerer can't add more POW later. He'd have to make a new inscription.

[PhilHibbs]

4 minutes ago, Crel said:

...you'd need to sacrifice 21 POW to make that inscription (1 as the base cost for an inscription, and then 20 for the bonus).

The bonus only needs to be 19 to get 20.

Edited August 29, 2018 by PhilHibbs

[Austin]

1 minute ago, PhilHibbs said:

The bonus only needs to be 19 to get 20.

So your reading is that the basic inscription always gives a free level of Intensity? When made with just one POW.

My thinking is that the first POW just stores the knowledge of the spell (opening up more Free INT) and that it takes extra POW to get bonus intensity.