The Earth Tribe

[Martin]

Does anyone care to speculate on who the "original"  male members of the Earth Tribe are in Esrolia?

What I mean by this is BEFORE Ernalda married Orlanth

[metcalph]

There is a Molandro who Yelm fought (mentioned in the Jonstown Compendium of the RuneQuest Companion) who is unknown in Dara Happan mythology.

[Joerg]

Veskarthan and his sons. Veskarthan was half earth after his merger with that foe he wrestled, and his sons were half earth by their ancestry.

Thunder Rebels lists the handmaidens of Ernalda and their lowfire husbands.

 

Earthwalkers are known. Tada was one.

Whether Molandro is associated with Esrolia is unknown - he is mentioned as second in a line of three foes of Yelm Ascendant, the first being Basko (whose Blood Sun manifestation appears to be a recent addition to sky cult practices in Dara Happa), the last being Jokbazi, who apparently was listed as a fifth hell ruler at some point.

Esrolia - Land of 10,000 Goddesses starts off with Harono as the Emperor.

 

Some mythographers might claim that only with the fiery injection of the celestial semen fatherhood and the necessity of males began to figure, but that leaves the way older interaction between the gender-fluid sea and the female earth or earth reproducing unto itself aside.

God Learner monomyth canon has Umath as the first Burta (mixed element) birth. It certainly became the signature one, leaving all other such firsts (thinking of the Wild Man of Kralori myth here) as weaker incidents of this cosmic scale mingling. But we do have transitional entities, like e.g. the River Edzaroun (formerly known as Styx) preceding the birth of the Waters of the World. From her ancestry, Styx would be a Darkness Srvuali, a devolved instance of Nakala. From her nature and behavior, she is a Water entity for the Underworld, in a place that preceded the presence of water.

 

In "The Monomyth According to Joerg" theory, there was an age when both Sky and Air were there but not yet conceptualized after the Earth Cube had pierced the Upper End of the Seas and had a surface all to itself. This would be Creation Age according to the few God Learner Monomyth events presented for such a primal period, and possibly setting for the Dragons vs. Giants myths hinted at in RQ3 Gods of Glorantha and the RQ3 Troll Gods Annilla cult.

The concept of fathers was not yet conceptualized, either. Larnste caused the birth/growth of Kero Fin by placing a seed deep in the land. One possibility (and a concrete belief among the Beast Riders) is that the Earth Gods were giants.

[Sir_Godspeed]

2 hours ago, Joerg said:

The concept of fathers was not yet conceptualized, either. Larnste caused the birth/growth of Kero Fin by placing a seed deep in the land. One possibility (and a concrete belief among the Beast Riders) is that the Earth Gods were giants.

I was about to mention Giants. The issue is, from what I can tell, that "Giant" refers to many different things in Glorantha  - but pertinent to this discussion, it seems plausible that some of the primordial masculine Earth deities would've been "gigantic" in proportions, and shaped the landscape with their actions in some way. (although to be fair, this also applies to feminine deities, as well as some non-Earth entities.)

But yeah, while male earth entities were probably more common back at some point, I also get the impression that the Earth never really specifically needed maleness to reproduce itself. Adding variety however, seems like is more the important reason to include "male" partners into the equation (and by male we mean something along the lines of "source of admixture", in Runic or developmental terms). It's one of those cases where once one moves away from specific named references and passages of text it becomes pretty open and vague, imo.

There's a part of me that would like to think that Mostal might be some "lost" kind of masculine Earth entity - however, it's probably truer to say that Mostal and the World Machine isn't just limited to Earth, even if that's where the Mostali settled. The World Machine involved all substances, all elements. Not to derail this thread.

Edited February 27, 2019 by Sir_Godspeed

[womble]

1 hour ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

But yeah, while male earth entities were probably more common back at some point, I also get the impression that the Earth never really specifically needed maleness to reproduce itself. Adding variety however, seems like is more the important reason to include "male" partners into the equation (and by male we mean something along the lines of "source of admixture", in Runic or developmental terms). It's one of those cases where once one moves away from specific named references and passages of text it becomes pretty open and vague, imo.

Parthenogenesis, or other forms of asexual reproduction like vegetative, or binary fission (RW) limit variation, with the offspring being 'clones' of the single parent. Perhaps the advent of the Mythic concept of 'fatherhood' allowed more differences to develop between things in an analogous fashion to the advent of sexual reproduction in the real world?

[Sir_Godspeed]

4 hours ago, womble said:

Parthenogenesis, or other forms of asexual reproduction like vegetative, or binary fission (RW) limit variation, with the offspring being 'clones' of the single parent. Perhaps the advent of the Mythic concept of 'fatherhood' allowed more differences to develop between things in an analogous fashion to the advent of sexual reproduction in the real world?

I'm inclined to think so. At least in some cases.

EDIT: Of course, "male-identified" entities like Aether Primolt and Dayzatar also practice non-mixing reproduction, so there are more varieties of creation and reproduction at work here than can't easily be explained with reference to the RW.

EDIT2: Jeff also mentioned a while back that the Blue Age was a state before the Green Age when notions of gender/sex were not yet developed, or meaningless.

EDIT3: CAN'T easily be explained with reference to the RW. Wow, that missing apostrophe made the sentence seem a bit presumptuous.

Edited February 27, 2019 by Sir_Godspeed

[Martin]

6 hours ago, Joerg said:

Thunder Rebels lists the handmaidens of Ernalda and their lowfire husbands

I cant find this list in TR care to share which page?

[Joerg]

22 minutes ago, Martin said:

I cant find this list in TR care to share which page?

P.190, "First Fire Day" (a boxed section).

[jajagappa]

12 hours ago, Joerg said:

Whether Molandro is associated with Esrolia is unknown

I figure that Molandro and Molanni are of a common origin and from some borderground between Orlanthi and Solar cultures (probably the Tarsh/Saird region) which was crushed by each in turn.

15 hours ago, Martin said:

"original"  male members of the Earth Tribe are in Esrolia

Really very little to go on for this.

Entru is a possibility, particularly given an association with Ketha as perhaps the original land goddess of the region, but nothing canonical there to my knowledge. 

There are a group of Esrolian deities named Del-xxx.  Delaina and Deleao are the most notable. And the Delainan Hills are a prominent feature of Esrolia.  The Map in Heortling Mythology p.62 shows Ancient Dellen and Del-eppo Heart as ancient places.  And Thunder Rebels, p.146 notes Delan the Strong as one of Ernalda's varied husband-protectors. There is also Deleen Kodigsdotter, suggesting that Kodig may have married into the Del- related earth deities.  So, Delan the Strong might be a possibility. 

Then there are the Ter-xxx figures.  Esrolia p.23 notes the Axe Man, probably Tereen (chosen of Ter) as well as the Most Bad Man, possibly Terliol (“Blessed of Ter”), the grandson of Tereen.  Also on p.25 we get Tereneel, the Little Voice.  These may just all be titles for figures such as Kodig. Or, they may be ancient Earth cult titles laid upon Kodig or other more recent arrivals.

Edited February 28, 2019 by jajagappa

[jajagappa]

10 hours ago, Joerg said:

Dragons vs. Giants myths

Could well represent the battles between Water deities (often draconic in appearance) and Earth deities.

[Joerg]

3 hours ago, jajagappa said:

Could well represent the battles between Water deities (often draconic in appearance) and Earth deities.

But then the Leviathan in Sandy's Gods War and the serpentine expressions of Earth deities could be mistaken for dragons, as well.

[soltakss]

Genert.

He fathered daughters on his sister, daughters on his daughters and daughters on his granddaughters.

Earth Tribe Goddesses are generally split into two - Those Goddesses fathered by Genert and those in the Asrelia/Ty Kora Tek/Ernalda/Maran Gor/Voria/Babeester Gor line.

[Sir_Godspeed]

2 hours ago, soltakss said:

Genert.

He fathered daughters on his sister, daughters on his daughters and daughters on his granddaughters.

Earth Tribe Goddesses are generally split into two - Those Goddesses fathered by Genert and those in the Asrelia/Ty Kora Tek/Ernalda/Maran Gor/Voria/Babeester Gor line.

That's how the Sourcebook presents it at least, but I suspect that's a chart of convencience. Ernalda is the Mother Goddess, borne from Asrelia, who in turn used to be the Mother Goddess back in the Green Age and was born from Gata, the primal Earth. However, if seen from areas outside of Kethaela/Kerofinela, every Land Goddess is seen as the Mother Goddess in the area in which she is the Land Goddess, if that makes sense. Frona is not just treated as some regional deity Fronela, she is as central and fundamental as Ernalda is in Kerofinela/Kethaela, imho.

The text in the Sourcebook supports that, if I recall correct - in a sense, every Earth Goddess is a local expression of the same Earth Mother Deity that on a deeper level is universal. That doesn't mean they're interchangeable (the God Learners found out the hard way), but they are "particular iterations" of the same fundamental concept/entity. Or, as Evans-Pritchard would've put it, they are "Refractions of God".

I suspect that a Kerofinelan who knows about Frona might argue that she's one of many daughters of Genert, while Ernalda was borne from Asrelia without a father. A Jonatelan might see it in the opposite fashion.

[Darius West]

There are a fair few.  Sestartos the Artist, Panaxles the Architect, Vogarth the Big Man, Kalops the Sacrifice, as well as the 3 Bad men Herkool, Kodig and Elaliol,  Tereen the Axe Man, Desdel the Surprise, Veskarthan the Devourer, the Jolly Fat Man (Oroypsus?), Nandan, Barntar, Minlister, and maybe Doburdun.  There may be other deities from the Gods Wall that have Earth origins too.  Obviously Genert and Pamalt, plus Pamalt's pantheon.  Tada?

Edited March 2, 2019 by Darius West

[Martin]

49 minutes ago, Darius West said:

Sestartos the Artist, Panaxles the Architect, Vogarth the Big Man, Kalops the Sacrifice

Yeah I knew these enitities but they are second age ones rather than BEFORE Ernalda married Orlanth

[Joerg]

1 hour ago, Martin said:

2 hours ago, Darius West said:

Sestartos the Artist, Panaxles the Architect, Vogarth the Big Man, Kalops the Sacrifice

Yeah I knew these enitities but they are second age ones rather than BEFORE Ernalda married Orlanth

Silver Age heroes rather than deities, and of mixed storm and earth origin. Humans, mainly.

[soltakss]

17 hours ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

That's how the Sourcebook presents it at least, but I suspect that's a chart of convencience. Ernalda is the Mother Goddess, borne from Asrelia, who in turn used to be the Mother Goddess back in the Green Age and was born from Gata, the primal Earth. However, if seen from areas outside of Kethaela/Kerofinela, every Land Goddess is seen as the Mother Goddess in the area in which she is the Land Goddess, if that makes sense. Frona is not just treated as some regional deity Fronela, she is as central and fundamental as Ernalda is in Kerofinela/Kethaela, imho.

Oh, absolutely. The Land Goddesses are very important in their own lands. Esrola is almost as important as Ernalda in Esrolia, for example.

However, the Six Goddesses have become important across Genertela and have eclipsed the Land Goddesses or the Crop Goddesses, to a large extent.

7 hours ago, Martin said:

Yeah I knew these enitities but they are second age ones rather than BEFORE Ernalda married Orlanth

Aurelion is the son of Esrola, or Gata, I can't remember, but I think it's Esrola. He is the Fertile Volcanic Earth from which all manner of plants can spring. 

I can't remember if Asrelia had any sons, but I am sure she did. Ty Kora Tek probably didn't, or, if she did, they'd be associated with the Underworld. Babeester Gor probably doesn't have children, but she might, she has changed from being a virgin goddess to one who has mates, in the same way that Maran Gor changed from having mates to not having mates, it is confusing.

[Sir_Godspeed]

7 hours ago, soltakss said:

I can't remember if Asrelia had any sons, but I am sure she did. Ty Kora Tek probably didn't, or, if she did, they'd be associated with the Underworld. Babeester Gor probably doesn't have children, but she might, she has changed from being a virgin goddess to one who has mates, in the same way that Maran Gor changed from having mates to not having mates, it is confusing.

The "Dark Earth" goddesses are usually not associated with fertility, and don't seem to have children in at least the most generic lineage trees (for example the God Learnerish genealogies in the Sourcebook). I seem to remember that Ty Kora Tek has at the very least a husband associated with Darkness, though. And Maran Gor has her incarnation in the form of Sorana Tor (right? I'm not misreading that relation?) who does spawn a dynasty in Tarsh.

Babeester, if we are to take the myths at face value, seem to have sprung fully-formed and armed for vengeance from the womb of a hibernating Ernalda.

That being said, we have discussed the idea of a "Triple Dark Goddess" along the Maiden-Mother-Crone model that the "Triple Goddess" of Voria-Ernalda-Asrelia seem to be modeled after. It's tempting to see Babeester-Maran-Ty Kora Tek as this, but they wouldn't be directly in lineage (if that matters), and it's also debatable whether Babeester could really be seen as representing a "maiden" phase of Maran (who I for some reason suspect might've been more of a dancing goddess or something in her youth, cf. "Earthshaker"), but who knows. Not me.

Edited March 3, 2019 by Sir_Godspeed

[scott-martin]

42 minutes ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

"Triple Dark Goddess"

Definitely. If you have Dark Earth, you're on the non Fertile side and don't necessarily pass on your crown from mother to daughter but from auntie to niece . . . Asrelia and TKT are sisters, one lucky and one not, Ernalda and Maran are sisters of binary aspect, Babeester and Voria are sisters.

Running through this thread is the notion that Aldryami and Mostali are also Earth Tribe peoples only estranged from human history. 

 

[Joerg]

6 hours ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

The "Dark Earth" goddesses are usually not associated with fertility, and don't seem to have children in at least the most generic lineage trees (for example the God Learnerish genealogies in the Sourcebook). I seem to remember that Ty Kora Tek has at the very least a husband associated with Darkness, though. And Maran Gor has her incarnation in the form of Sorana Tor (right? I'm not misreading that relation?) who does spawn a dynasty in Tarsh.

Sorana Tor as dynastic founder is an incarnation of Kero Fin, IMO. All she is wearing is the Necklace of Kero Fin.

But Maran has always been a mother goddess, right next to Kyger Litor on the affection scale.

That said, she deeply cared about her offspring, the Earth Shakers, and went to the Dark Side as a consequence of their extermination.

6 hours ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

Babeester, if we are to take the myths at face value, seem to have sprung fully-formed and armed for vengeance from the womb of a hibernating Ernalda.

She might still have appeared as a child. Compare the children of Salinarg, Harsaltar and his younger sisters, forming the Household of Death.

I am not quite clear how much the "Child Prodigy" line of kings of the Illaro dynasty still is canonical. The one or two times I discussed this with Greg he was serious about baby boys radiating divine/royal power.

 

[soltakss]

16 hours ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

The "Dark Earth" goddesses are usually not associated with fertility, and don't seem to have children in at least the most generic lineage trees (for example the God Learnerish genealogies in the Sourcebook). I seem to remember that Ty Kora Tek has at the very least a husband associated with Darkness, though. And Maran Gor has her incarnation in the form of Sorana Tor (right? I'm not misreading that relation?) who does spawn a dynasty in Tarsh.

Maran Gor was the mother of Quakebeasts, at one time, so she was not infertile.

I hadn't thought about Sorana Tor, as it is unclear about where she comes from. A child of Maran Gor makes as much sense as anything.

[Sir_Godspeed]

16 hours ago, Joerg said:

Sorana Tor as dynastic founder is an incarnation of Kero Fin, IMO.

This is news to me. I've seen the name "Earthshaker Temple" and immediately connected it to Maran Gor over Kero Fin - especially with the implied(?) male sacrifice there. But Kero Fin makes sense too. Can a priestess incarnate multiple godesses depending on the situation?

[Joerg]

5 hours ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

This is news to me. I've seen the name "Earthshaker Temple" and immediately connected it to Maran Gor over Kero Fin - especially with the implied(?) male sacrifice there. But Kero Fin makes sense too.

The Shaker Temple definitely is a holy site to Maran Gor, but it also sits at the foot of Kerofin Mountain, and serves as a kind of "low temple" to the mountain itself.

The Necklace of Kero Fin was first mentioned being worn by Aram ya Udram, the leader of the Aramite boar riders of the Ivory Plinth, and human representative on the First Council.

5 hours ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

Can a priestess incarnate multiple godesses depending on the situation?

Maybe the goddess can.

The Hero Wars era book Storm Tribe does present Ana Gor, the aspect of human sacrifice, and makes it subservient to any number of cults that require human sacrifice. Sorana Tor is (among other things) a representative of Ana Gor, at least in her role in the Illaro dynasty.