The Seven Mothers' Lightbringer Quest

[Akhôrahil]

Wait, is it controversial that the 7M did a modified LBQ to help bring back the Red Godess? I always assumed that this was equally intentional and obvious. 

[Akhôrahil]

The obvious correspondences:

Lhankor Mhy -> Irippi Ontor
Chalana Arroy -> Queen Deezola
Eurmal -> Danfive Xaron 
Ginna Jar -> She Who Waits

Flesh Man -> Teelo Norri is also pretty easy.

This leaves Yanafal Tarnils mapping to Orlanth, and a (really non-obvious) Jakaleel for Issaries. EDIT: Unless you consider the psychopomp aspect, which you probably should.

Edited April 2, 2019 by Akhôrahil

[Charles]

I'm not a fan of the idea that the 7 Mothers performed a Lightbringer Quest. They likely took some inspiration from the LBQ, however many elements, even at the very start are radically different. For example, Teelo was a little girl taken from the streets rather than a raving mortal prophesying the doom of the Cosmos.

YGSV

[The God Learner]

There are some clear similarities with the LBQ, such as the Lightbringer similarity you mention above. I sort of enjoy Danfive Xaron cast as Orlanth, for example. However, I still don't like it overall for a number of reasons. (Personal opinion only. Someone like Jeff Richards may disagree with me, of course.)

First, is the LBQ mythically appropriate? As I see it, the LBQ is roughly about doing penance after a very bad act, ending with victim Yelm being made whole and forgiving perpetrator Orlanth. There are many other resurrection myths available though. Ernalda has one too, though she resurrects relatives (cf. Heortling Mythology). Personally, I instead prefer the myth I mention above as more fitting to what was being attained, the construction of the RG from a collection of destroyed moon goddesses, but also because it seems to be strongly hinted at in Life of Sedenya. (Read the secret message again and see what you think.) 

Second, is the LBQ culturally appropriate? Most of the participants are not Orlanthi but Pelorians. Only defrocked Irrippi Ontor comes from a Lightbringer context, from what I recall offhand, while the others are quite different. It could possibly be the LBQ seen from the Dara Happan/Yelmite perspective. (In particular if you take the view that Yelm after the Dawn is a frankenstein made of various solar deities.) The myth I mention above is fully Dara Happan, which pleases me. 

Third, from the metagaming perspective, I consider the LBQ as being used too much as it is. It seems a bit too obvious and unimaginative to recruit the LBQ for this job too. So give me something more surprising yet fitting. 

[jeffjerwin]

7 minutes ago, The God Learner said:

First, is the LBQ mythically appropriate? As I see it, the LBQ is roughly about doing penance after a very bad act, ending with victim Yelm being made whole and forgiving perpetrator Orlanth.

Recall, however, that the most recent Moon Goddess was dismembered or destroyed by her own son, a Dara Happan Emperor, and that the primordial Moon was forced into the underworld/death by Yelm. Matricide is perhaps a worse crime than the murder of a stranger... The quest of the Seven Mothers is equally making 'something right' as making something new.

[soltakss]

The Seven Mothers stitched something together to bring back a Goddess. One of the participants was in Llankhor Mhy, so knew of the LightBringer Quest. Another was in Ernalda, so probably knew of the LBQ as well. A third was in Humakt, so was probably aware of bits of the LBQ. They probably knew enough to be able to start the Quest and then make it up as they went along. Presumably, they knew who they were going for and had ways around the bits they didn't know.

It may well be that they could use Gerra or Ikadz in place of the Baths of Nelat, for example, to punish those taking part.

There are lots of ways of getting through a Station or section of the HeroQuest when you don't know it. Substitute something else, try it and see what happens, force it into place.

[Bud's RPG review]

It's not exactly the same, but it kind of mirrors the Lightbringers Quest.

[Sir_Godspeed]

2 hours ago, The God Learner said:

First, is the LBQ mythically appropriate? As I see it, the LBQ is roughly about doing penance after a very bad act, ending with victim Yelm being made whole and forgiving perpetrator Orlanth.

The penance aspect, as well as the mutual-recognition aspect seems to be ignored a lot when the myth is used as a story-device. I mean, did Argrath do beg Sheng Seleris for forgiveness and they agreed to acknowledge each other as natural parts of the Cosmos?

Without that, as you said, what we're left with is essentially just a ressurection spell, and that seems like it's doing a disservice to the comprehensive mythic importance of the myth.

[jeffjerwin]

17 minutes ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

The penance aspect, as well as the mutual-recognition aspect seems to be ignored a lot when the myth is used as a story-device. I mean, did Argrath do beg Sheng Seleris for forgiveness and they agreed to acknowledge each other as natural parts of the Cosmos?

Without that, as you said, what we're left with is essentially just a ressurection spell, and that seems like it's doing a disservice to the comprehensive mythic importance of the myth.

Sheng is however, as much an manifestation of Yu-Kargzant (Sun Stallion) as he is of anything else... Which means that Argrath could perform Orlanth's action without being the actual 'First Rebel'.

However, it is true that Sheng was slain by the Red Emperor and the Great Sister, not Argrath... though as Sheng is AgartuSay he is in fact an aspect of Arkat just like the Prince of Sartar... There may be some sort of penance for the wounding of the self going on. Not sure.

[The God Learner]

4 hours ago, The God Learner said:

Only defrocked Irrippi Ontor comes from a Lightbringer context, from what I recall offhand, while the others are quite different.

Correction:

Yanafal Tarnils is a defrocked Humakti too, both he and IO are from Yuthuppa.

I think Queen Deezola used to be Ernalda-associated but Pavis GTA puts her as a priestess of Arachne Solara, no less.

The rest of 7M have no clear Lightbringer background as far as I can see. 

[The God Learner]

2 hours ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

mutual-recognition aspect

Thanks for expressing what my club-hands could not.

 

[The God Learner]

4 minutes ago, The God Learner said:

I think Queen Deezola used to be Ernalda-associated but Pavis GTA puts her as a priestess of Arachne Solara, no less.

Though just to muddy the waters some more, in Heortling Mythology, Arachne Solara is one of the names of Ernalda (p.5). Nevertheless, I persist.

[Joerg]

22 hours ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

The penance aspect, as well as the mutual-recognition aspect seems to be ignored a lot when the myth is used as a story-device. I mean, did Argrath do beg Sheng Seleris for forgiveness and they agreed to acknowledge each other as natural parts of the Cosmos?

He didn't, because when he asked for Sheng, the assembled deities in Ashlieges's court couldn't provide him. Argrath then took his questers on a yet deeper quest, using up most of them to find the Lunar Hell Sheng was lingering in. When encountering Sheng there, there was no need to go through all that Solar appeasement routine any more.

You might say that Argrath went on a Lightbringers' Quest, and knowingly botched it.

[jeffjerwin]

2 hours ago, Joerg said:

He didn't, because when he asked for Sheng, the assembled deities in Ashlieges's court couldn't provide him. Argrath then took his questers on a yet deeper quest, using up most of them to find the Lunar Hell Sheng was lingering in. When encountering Sheng there, there was no need to go through all that Solar appeasement routine any more.

You might say that Argrath went on a Lightbringers' Quest, and knowingly botched it.

The deeper Lunar Hell is the same one the Goddess was lost within, is it not? Isn't that interesting? Because perhaps Argrath merged the LBQ with the quest of Yanafil Tarnils to find the Goddess after she was trapped by Carmanian sorcerers in the Seven Teeth and Two Jaws... Which would mean learning Lunar secrets, I think. Of course Annstad and his father were illuminated and initiates of the RG.