Movement and SR

[Mechashef]

My apologies if this has already been asked.

 

Bazza has a Dex SR of 2, a Siz SR of 1 and a weapon with a SR of 3, for a total SR of 6.

Gabby has a Dex SR of 1, a Siz SR of 1 and a weapon with a SR of 2, for a total of 4. 

 

Bazza wants to use 4 SRs of movement to close with Gabby and attack her.

My understanding is that Bazza can attack on SR 10.

 

But when can Gabby attack Bazza?

If Bazza's Statement of Intent is that he will move then attack, and if both adventurers have their weapons prepared, is the formula:

4+2+1+3 i.e. the movement SR component is put at the start?

This seems simplest and means Bazza arrives at Gabby at SR 4 and Gabby could attack Bazza on SR 4.

Or 

2+4+1+3 i.e. the Dex SR component is put first to simulate Bazza's reaction time, then the Movement SRs?

This means Gabby would have to wait until SR 6 to attack Bazza

 

Or some other combination?

 

Thanks

 

 

[PhilHibbs]

45 minutes ago, Mechashef said:

If Bazza's Statement of Intent is that he will move then attack, and if both adventurers have their weapons prepared, is the formula:

4+2+1+3 i.e. the movement SR component is put at the start?

This seems simplest and means Bazza arrives at Gabby at SR 4 and Gabby could attack Bazza on SR 4.

Yes, Bazza's movement delays his attack, but since they are engaged at SR4, Gabby can attack. If Bazza had used 5 SR to move, that's tricky. Personally I'd say still SR4. SR is an abstraction, not a movie reel frame sequence.

[EpicureanDM]

I'm actually working on a guide that (hopefully) sorts this out. Once it's in decent shape, I'll post it to this forum for feedback. Hopefully, it can be pinned for everyone's reference.

 

[Sumath]

Personally, I would have readiness/movement commence on a character's DEX SR, then movement SRs, and finally attacks (SIZ + Weapon SRs) commence when they are within range of their opponent. So for Bazza 2+4+1+3. Gabby can't attack until her opponent is in range, so she'd have to wait until SR6 when Bazza's movement has finished.

Strike ranks are an abstraction, but degrees of order are still important, and Gabby delaying her attack until a target presents itself needs to be accounted for. For example, what if Morris (standing next to Gabby) wants to throw a javelin into Bazza when Bazza is on his way to reaching Gabby?

Let's say he does this on SR5 (Morris moves a short distance to stand beside Gabby) - even so his attack obviously needs to happen before Gabby can hit Bazza. From Morris' point of view, Gabby cannot possibly carry out a melee attack on SR4, because Bazza has not reached her (he's up to six metres away), but Bazza is a viable target for Morris' thrown javelin.

So to preserve order of attack, Gabby's attack SR needs to be higher to account for her waiting for Bazza to arrive later in the round, and to allow Morris' thrown weapon to hit before Bazza closes the distance.

[g33k]

2 hours ago, Sumath said:

Personally, I would have readiness/movement commence on a character's DEX SR, then movement SRs, and finally attacks (SIZ + Weapon SRs) commence when they are within range of their opponent. So for Bazza 2+4+1+3. Gabby can't attack until her opponent is in range, so she'd have to wait until SR6 when Bazza's movement has finished.

Strike ranks are an abstraction, but degrees of order are still important, and Gabby delaying her attack until a target presents itself needs to be accounted for. For example, what if Morris (standing next to Gabby) wants to throw a javelin into Bazza when Bazza is on his way to reaching Gabby?

Let's say he does this on SR5 (Morris moves a short distance to stand beside Gabby) - even so his attack obviously needs to happen before Gabby can hit Bazza. From Morris' point of view, Gabby cannot possibly carry out a melee attack on SR4, because Bazza has not reached her (he's up to six metres away), but Bazza is a viable target for Morris' thrown javelin.

So to preserve order of attack, Gabby's attack SR needs to be higher to account for her waiting for Bazza to arrive later in the round, and to allow Morris' thrown weapon to hit before Bazza closes the distance.

I'm not sure I understand this counter example.  Why is Morris' javelin not going until SR5?  Is he just that slow/clumsy?  Is the javelin not readied?  Did he move enough SR's to delay?  Some mix of all the above?

I will suggest that if, in fact, Morris' javelin doesn't go until SR5, then it happens AFTER Gabby's potential melee action on SR4 (but before the actual action on SR6, when Bazza finishes moving).

Edited March 20, 2019 by g33k
clarifiying/correcting, with full details

[g33k]

3 hours ago, PhilHibbs said:

Yes, Bazza's movement delays his attack, but since they are engaged at SR4, Gabby can attack. If Bazza had used 5 SR to move, that's tricky. Personally I'd say still SR4. SR is an abstraction, not a movie reel frame sequence.

SR's are a bit abstract, so there's some judgement here; but I'd call this for Gabby's attack on SR6.  Bazza begins moving on their DEX rank (2) plus 4 SR's to close to engagement-distance with Gabby.  Gabby can't reach Bazza on SR4, Bazza has only closed half the distance to engagement-range.

I could see an argument for Gabby going on SR5:  their weapon has 1 more SR of range, so it hits 1 SR before the distance that Bazza is closing to.  But that's beginning to get a bit fiddly, and setting SR-abstractions into inappropriately-concrete specifics.

 

[Sumath]

1 hour ago, g33k said:

Why is Morris' javelin not going until SR5?  Is he just that slow/clumsy?  Is the javelin not readied?  Did he move enough SR's to delay?  Some mix of all the above?

Because he is slow and he moves to stand next to Gabby, but a shorter distance than Bazza, so he reaches Gabby before Bazza does. 

So who is Gabby attacking on SR4?

It can't be Bazza because he's nowhere near her (or Morris in my example). Gabby cannot attack someone who is not there. Morris can, because he's using a thrown weapon. If Morris was faster and did not move, then he could attack on SR 4 or even 3. But this still doesn't mean that Gabby should attack on SR4 if she hasn't been engaged at that point.

[PhilHibbs]

From a cinematic point of view, one warrior charging towards another who is standing and waiting tend to hit each other simultaneously. However, I'm quite happy to give the advantage to the one who is standing their ground, and in this case the advantage is in hitting first. I wonder if a prepared defender against a charge should have some other bonus, such as a to-hit bonus.

1 hour ago, Sumath said:

Strike ranks are an abstraction, but degrees of order are still important, and Gabby delaying her attack until a target presents itself needs to be accounted for.

I disagree, I don't think it does. YRQGMV.

Edited March 20, 2019 by PhilHibbs

[Atgxtg]

7 minutes ago, PhilHibbs said:

I disagree, I don't think it does. YRQGMV.

Well, what if the target had cast a Heal  spell on an ally and then moved out and presented himself? If you didn't account for the delay, Gabby's attack might go off before the Heal spell. 

[Sumath]

7 minutes ago, PhilHibbs said:

I disagree, I don't think it does. YRQGMV.

Okay, look at it another way. On his way towards Gabby, Bazza runs past opponents Ned (who can attack on SR 5), Harry (SR 4) and Giza (SR6). All three of them will take a swing at Bazza as he runs past.

Are there SRs also not delayed by Bazza's movement, and does Gabby still attack on SR4? If so, how?

[g33k]

1 hour ago, PhilHibbs said:

From a cinematic point of view, one warrior charging towards another who is standing and waiting tend to hit each other simultaneously. However, I'm quite happy to give the advantage to the one who is standing their ground, and in this case the advantage is in hitting first. I wonder if a prepared defender against a charge should have some other bonus, such as a to-hit bonus.

Length of weapon has a real bearing on this; often the main determinant.  Long pikes set to receive a charge will attack earlier.  A lancer charging an axe-wielder will attack earlier.  Etc... 

Also, there's a question of a "charge" (as part of an attack) vs an "advance" (as movement/repositioning).  One could argue the merits of the stationary fighter gaining a slight advantage from being able to prep vs. a charge; or the charging fighter being in control of the timing; etc.  I think those muddy the case at hand, though; let's not get into those hypotheticals.

 

It sounds (in the OP, before any of us added complications) like Gabby & Bazza each plan to attack one another; Gabby is going to hold, Bazza plans to advance... but NOT charge.

• It was  mutual intention to be Engaged in combat.  So that's what happens.
• The one with the earlier SR goes first, because nothing happened to alter that.
• There's DEX ranks as slower characters take a bit longer to act.
• It takes some SR's (+4) of movement, because they don't begin close enough to Engage.
• Gabby's DEX+SIZ+Weapon SR adds to 4 (but Bazza isn't in reach until SR6).

At SR2, Bazza begins advancing.  Bazza means to advance for 4 SR's until in-range of Gabby -- arriving on SR6 -- and strike.  Gabby will strike before Bazza.

My only question is, can Gabby strike one SR earlier, on 5, because of the longer / lower-SR weapon?  I can see the argument for Gabby going on SR5 or on SR6.

 

Edited March 20, 2019 by g33k

[PhilHibbs]

1 hour ago, Sumath said:

Okay, look at it another way. On his way towards Gabby, Bazza runs past opponents Ned (who can attack on SR 5), Harry (SR 4) and Giza (SR6). All three of them will take a swing at Bazza as he runs past.

Are there SRs also not delayed by Bazza's movement, and does Gabby still attack on SR4? If so, how?

You can't just run past people who want to engage you in combat. As soon as you are in melee range, you're engaged. If you then move past someone to get in range of someone else, they get a flanking bonus to attack you. And I have no problem with resolving those attacks each on their normal SR. Although I can also see the justification for allowing the attack earlier, but then I might say that you don't get the flanking bonus that waiting for your normal turn might give.

14 minutes ago, g33k said:

My only question is, can Gabby strike one SR earlier, on 5, because of the longer / lower-SR weapon?  I can see the argument for Gabby going on SR5 or on SR6.

Depends - if you're using a houserule in which SR are no longer an abstraction but instead are an impulse system, then I'd need to know more about the houserule, but SR6 looks like the answer. In the rules as written, I see no reason why Gabby doesn't go on SR4.

Edited March 20, 2019 by PhilHibbs

[g33k]

27 minutes ago, PhilHibbs said:

You can't just run past people who want to engage you in combat.

Agreed.

27 minutes ago, PhilHibbs said:

... As soon as you are in melee range, you're engaged...

Provisionally agreed:  assuming they want to engage you; if they are happy to let you go by without Engaging, then you can do so.  I might apply a mutual 1SR penlalty to both parties for being a bit more slow/careful when moving within the Engagement range of an armed foe; but that'd be GM ad-hocery.

27 minutes ago, PhilHibbs said:

.. If you then move past someone to get in range of someone else, they get a flanking bonus to attack you.,.

Sharply disagree, at least per the RAW.  There is no "flanking bonus" rule in RQG, that I recall.

27 minutes ago, PhilHibbs said:

... In the rules as written, I see no reason why Gabby doesn't go on SR4.

Gabby can indeed "go" on SR4, but her action would need to be to close the distance:  Bazza isn't in range.

Gabby couldn't have taken an attack action BEFORE Bazza closed the distance; it's not an "impulse" system but it does order the events, and on SR4 Bazza isn't close enough to Engage.  If both of their SoI's for the round were, "I'll stand my ground and let the little piss-ant come to me." then neither of them GETS an attack -- they stand there glaring at one another from out of range, unEngaged...

Bazza isn't in range until the move completes; either on SR6, or one SR earlier if you allow the Gabby's weapon's reach-advantage to apply.

Edited March 20, 2019 by g33k
clarifying

[PhilHibbs]

31 minutes ago, g33k said:

Gabby couldn't have taken an attack action BEFORE Bazza closed the distance; it's not an "impulse" system but it does order the events, and on SR4 Bazza isn't close enough to Engage.

There is no moment in time called "SR4". SR are not impulses, so saying where someone is "on SR4" is meaningless. You say it's not an impulse system, then talk as if it IS an impulse system. It isn't, it's just a system for who goes first and how much you can get done in a round.

34 minutes ago, g33k said:

Sharply disagree, at least per the RAW.  There is no "flanking bonus" rule in RQG, that I recall.

Ok, my mistake.That's a house rule that I will probably use though.

[Mechashef]

Thanks people.  It looks like it doesn't have an answer which is universally agreed on:

 

As an extension of my original question, it is now Davo and Macca battling and their weapons are prepared,

Davo has a Dex SR of 3, a Siz SR of 2, a weapon SR of 2 and wants to move 4 SRs to close on Macca and then attack.

Macca has a Dex SR of 2, a SIz SR of 1 and  a weapon SR of 3 for a total of 6.  Macca also has a skill of over 100% (or uses a weapon in each hand) and wants to attack twice, (normally once on SR 6 and again on SR 12).

 

If Davo's actions are calculated as using Move SRs first, then he arrives at Macca on  SR 4.  Macca can then attack on SR 6 and again on SR 12.

 

If Davo's actions are calculated as Dex SR first, then Move SRs,  he arrives at Macca on SR 7 (3 + 4),  Macca can attack on SR 7 but his second attack would then be on SR 13 which isn't allowed so he only gets to attack once.

 

Which way should it go?

Thanks

 

 

 

 

Edited March 21, 2019 by Mechashef
Got the numbers for Davo's SR of 7 the wrong way around

[Mechashef]

6 hours ago, EpicureanDM said:

I'm actually working on a guide that (hopefully) sorts this out. Once it's in decent shape, I'll post it to this forum for feedback. Hopefully, it can be pinned for everyone's reference.

 

That is fantastic news.

I have just started working on one but it has really just illustrated how much I don't fully understand.

I look forward to your guide.

Thanks

[Psullie]

1 hour ago, Mechashef said:

As an extension of my original question, it is now Davo and Macca battling and their weapons are prepared,

Davo has a Dex SR of 3, a Siz SR of 2, a weapon SR of 2 and wants to move 4 SRs to close on Macca and then attack.

Macca has a Dex SR of 2, a SIz SR of 1 and  a weapon SR of 3 for a total of 6.  Macca also has a skill of over 100% (or uses a weapon in each hand) and wants to attack twice, (normally once on SR 6 and again on SR 12).

If Davo's actions are calculated as using Move SRs first, then he arrives at Macca on  SR 4.  Macca can then attack on SR 6 and again on SR 12.

If Davo's actions are calculated as Dex SR first, then Move SRs,  he arrives at Macca on SR 7 (4 + 3),  Macca can attack on SR 7 but his second attack would then be on SR 13 which isn't allowed so he only gets to attack once.

Which way should it go?

I play that character start acting in their DEX SR, so Davo will start closing on SR 3, while Macca prepares for the attack. On SR 7 Davo reaches Macca who can immediately attack. Davo then attacks on SR 11 with Macca can't make a second attack as they is not enough time in the round. 

 

[Sumath]

4 hours ago, PhilHibbs said:

You can't just run past people who want to engage you in combat. As soon as you are in melee range, you're engaged. If you then move past someone to get in range of someone else, they get a flanking bonus to attack you. And I have no problem with resolving those attacks each on their normal SR.

Wait... what?

You can't run past people? Since when?

So all those films where someone runs through a crowd of assailants, dodging blows and ducking under sword blades in order to get to the BBEG - those scenes can't happen in Runequest? If an opponent is not physically blocking your path, then yes you can run past them. Whether they get a flanking bonus to their attack is irrelevant to what SR they attack on. The fact that someone swings a sword at you, does not obligate you to stop and fight them.

I'd also be interested to know how you would resolve their attacks on normal SRs when Ned, Harry and Giza are three metres apart from each other. If (for example) Bazza runs past Ned on SR5, how can Harry (SR4) have attacked Bazza on the SR before if he does not fall in range of Harry's weapon until SR 6? How can Gabby have hit Bazza on SR 4 either? The whole thing is nonsense on stilts.

[Bill the barbarian]

Not sure what others here will say but I believe the rules are that you are engaged in melee not that you have to stop, (unless grappled, somehow obstructed or incapacitated I would assume).
Now being in Melee and wishing to disengage (run through)—again using memory here but willing to be proven wrong— or run means giving up attacks and parries allowing a foe a free attack, stay engaged for the round and only be able to parry and dodge, and then disengage, of knock back you foe. 

Alas the only running attack allowed is a knock back and it does not allow a running dodge of parry. When I read this last summer I began to HR.

[Mechashef]

1 hour ago, Psullie said:

I play that character start acting in their DEX SR, so Davo will start closing on SR 3, while Macca prepares for the attack. On SR 7 Davo reaches Macca who can immediately attack. Davo then attacks on SR 11 with Macca can't make a second attack as they is not enough time in the round. 

 

That would be my interpretation too.

 

Thanks 

[EpicureanDM]

6 hours ago, Psullie said:

I play that character start acting in their DEX SR, so Davo will start closing on SR 3,...

How many folks playing RQG use DEX SR as the earliest that a character can start acting? I know it's a common, accepted rule in RQ2/3, but was it explicitly brought over to RQG in the RAW? Does anyone have a page reference to it in RQG? I'm trying to figure out how to handle it in my game.

[g33k]

1 hour ago, EpicureanDM said:

How many folks playing RQG use DEX SR as the earliest that a character can start acting? I know it's a common, accepted rule in RQ2/3, but was it explicitly brought over to RQG in the RAW? Does anyone have a page reference to it in RQG? I'm trying to figure out how to handle it in my game.

I do not think the RQG rulebook states any definitive RAW on this.  But it is IMHO the only valid interpretation:  as you strip away things that could add SR's -- move to longer weapons, readed weapons, missile weapons, etc -- the one element you can never eliminate is your DEX based SR.  When all the other elements add zero SRs each, you go on your DEX rank.

[Joerg]

On the topic of running past intermediate people with weapons ready I find the notion of exactly one mobile attacker and three intermediate, static defenders quite weird, too - only seen in soccer (both amateur and more so professional). From my experience of mock combat, a significant amount of footwork is involved.

Playing with miniatures can easily get you into a chess mindset. Standing there with an implement designed to hit the opposition changes that perspective drastically.

[PhilHibbs]

4 hours ago, EpicureanDM said:

How many folks playing RQG use DEX SR as the earliest that a character can start acting? I know it's a common, accepted rule in RQ2/3, but was it explicitly brought over to RQG in the RAW? Does anyone have a page reference to it in RQG?

I've never explicitly thought of a rule like that, but I can't think of any way that you could act before that, except for rune magic or divine intervention. Are you thinking of parries or dodges, that a character can't defend against an attack that happens before their DEX SR? I wouldn't rule that. So no, I wouldn't play that way, and I don't think I've ever seen it even suggested. It would be a pretty rare situation anyway, maybe a Diminish DEX spell could bring it about.

Or were you thinking of movement, that if you have a DEX SR of 3 then you can't move in the first 2 SR, so 3 ranks of movement would finish on SR5, then you start counting your melee SR? Do you imagine someone running has to stop and not run for a couple of SR because the melee round reset and they can't act? Or that they have to continue running and can't stop until their DEX SR? Nope, that's never occurred to me either.

4 hours ago, EpicureanDM said:

I'm trying to figure out how to handle it in my game.

Handle what, specifically? If I'm missing the point, give us an example.

Edited March 21, 2019 by PhilHibbs

[Sumath]

1 hour ago, Joerg said:

On the topic of running past intermediate people with weapons ready I find the notion of exactly one mobile attacker and three intermediate, static defenders quite weird, too - only seen in soccer (both amateur and more so professional). From my experience of mock combat, a significant amount of footwork is involved.

Playing with miniatures can easily get you into a chess mindset. Standing there with an implement designed to hit the opposition changes that perspective drastically. 

There seems to be a great deal of effort going on here to avoid the point of the example. Which is that not accounting for an opponent's movement in a combatant's strike rank order results in a sequence of combat that is spatially or chronologically impossible.

Whether the set-up is 'weird' or not is immaterial. The same problem results if they only run past one person who has a higher strike rank than the runner's target.