Is Chaosium going to support BRP anymore?

[Atgxtg]

Back to the topic at hand.

I beleive that Triff is correct. The answer is yes.

However, I don7t think the original question was really meant to be taken literally. It isn't so much a case of if Chaosium will support BRP, but how much support (and how quickly) they will give it.

Unfortunately, Chaosium's track record isn't very good in this regard. I hope they can get some stuff out for BRP soon, but I'm not sure if they have the resources to do so. Currently it is just a bunch of fans buying an RPG that they already own.

If Chasoium doesn't get a couple of supplements out by the end of the year, BRP is going to end up just like most of their other games-unknown.

Edited March 16, 2009 by Atgxtg

[Jason D]

If Chasoium doesn't get a couple of supplements out by the end of the year, BRP is going to end up just like most of their other games-unknown.

I don't know if I'd call Call of Cthulhu unknown, and right now, it is their other game.

[Agentorange]

Back to the topic at hand.

I beleive that Triff is correct. The answer is yes.

However, I don7t think the original question was really meant to be taken literally. It isn't so much a case of if Chaosium will support BRP, but how much support (and how quickly) they will give it.

Unfortunately, Chaosium's track record isn't very good in this regard. I hope they can get some stuff out for BRP soon, but I'm not sure if they have the resources to do so. Currently it is just a bunch of fans buying an RPG that they already own.

If Chasoium doesn't get a couple of supplements out by the end of the year, BRP is going to end up just like most of their other games-unknown.

I suppose it depends on whether you count monographs as supplements. If you do then things are quite good: Outpost 19, Ashes to Ashes, Aces high and Berlin 61 are all in print with several others to follow. BRP adventures is out in PDF ( though I'm holding out for the print version )

But in terms of actual Chaosium supplements things are not healthy, we have the rulebook and...and....well actually thats it. Interplanetary is moving apace and so is Rome others are in preparation. I do still think that Chaosium have missed a couple of tricks in not producing or commissioning a bestiary or magic supplement ( though there is a magic monograph in the works ) There is a lot of unused BRP material that chaosium could put together for either of the above or even a BRP companion.

[Atgxtg]

I don't know if I'd call Call of Cthulhu unknown, and right now, it is their other game.

Ah, let me clarify. All of their games other than CoC. Most of their games, in the post RQ2 era, have few supplements. Strormbringer got to 4 editions before it had four supplements.

I thought one thing BRP is supposed to do is give Chaosium someplace else to put their eggs in addition to the "CoC basket".

[Atgxtg]

I suppose it depends on whether you count monographs as supplements....

I do, but I don't consider them as support by Chaosium unless they are released by Chaosium.

But in terms of actual Chaosium supplements things are not healthy, we have the rulebook and...and....well actually thats it. Interplanetary is moving apace and so is Rome others are in preparation. I do still think that Chaosium have missed a couple of tricks in not producing or commissioning a bestiary or magic supplement ( though there is a magic monograph in the works ) There is a lot of unused BRP material that chaosium could put together for either of the above or even a BRP companion.

That's just it. They need to get some stuff out there. For BRP to amount to anything, it has to do more than just sell a pre-existing system to a pre-existing fanbase who already own it.

I think that some on-line/PDF stuff is the easiest, least expensive way to get some material out and get some attention. A few small PDF products could help while the big stuf is in the works.

Wasn't there supposed to be a free BRP-lite? Anyone know what happened to that idea?

[kaddawang]

I hope to see Chaosium take the monographs seriously. The published monographs for BRP, and many of the CoC-ones are pretty good.

They need to get a quality-stamp on them. As of now, even if the products are good, the only way someone hears about them is through word of not-too-many-mouths.

Imagine Ashes, to Ashes professionally edited? (no offence to the author:))

Interplanetary is in the works, and there's another official setting buzzing around. A "BRP-companion" monograph(s), with magic, rules variants, campaigning, setting specifics, illustrated equipment etc would round it off nicely.

If they manage to get the official books, along with some nice monographs, out within reasonable time, things don't look that bleak, I think.

Then they only need someone else but us to buy them:p

But yey to more stuff. Does anyone know if Fantastical Baroque is still on? I'd really like to see that one.

[vagabond]

Ah, let me clarify. All of their games other than CoC. Most of their games, in the post RQ2 era, have few supplements. Strormbringer got to 4 editions before it had four supplements.

Err, need to correct you here.

Demon Magic, Stealer of Souls, Black Sword, Stormbringer Companion, and

White Wolf were all for SB1&2. SB3 actually combined the core and Companion.

And the Hawkmoon boxed set and Shattered Isle as well as Octagon of Chaos by TOME

SB4 had Rogue Mistress, Perils of the Young Kingdoms, Sea Kings of the Purple

Towns, and Sorcerors of Pan Tang.

Elric! had Melnibone, Unknown East, Bronze Grimoire, Fate of Fools, Atlas of the

Young Kingdoms Pt. I, GM's Screen and Sailing the Seas of Fate.

Stormbringer 5th is when most of the support went to monographs - Cults

of Law, Cults of Chaos, the Hawkmoon monograph, and Old Hrolmar.

-V

[Agentorange]

I do, but I don't consider them as support by Chaosium unless they are released by Chaosium.

In that Chaosium are responsible for publication, marketing etc etc I'd say they do count, but I take your point

That's just it. They need to get some stuff out there. For BRP to amount to anything, it has to do more than just sell a pre-existing system to a pre-existing fanbase who already own it.

Agreed, what they need is publicity and a higher profile in the marketplace.

I think that some on-line/PDF stuff is the easiest, least expensive way to get some material out and get some attention. A few small PDF products could help while the big stuf is in the works.

Wasn't there supposed to be a free BRP-lite? Anyone know what happened to that idea?

Certainly online PDF stuff would seem to be the quickest ,cheapest way to go. Now here's an interesting thing, I just nipped over to RPG now, they have no monographs of any sort there , be it CoC or BRP,also the BRP rulesbook doesn't seem to be available. I can understand Chaosiums desire to cut out the middle man and sell direct from their site as it maximises profit margin....yet they do sell from RPGnow as there are some CoC products there, and they wouldn't do that unless they were turning a coin. Surely they must be able to cut some kind of deal with RPGnow, drivethruRPG, Paizo etc etc to get PDF products out there ?

[NickMiddleton]

To add to Vagabonds point - Nephilim was published by Chaosium in 1994 and had seven supplements by 1997. Pendragon in total got a similar level support over it's 4 editions at Chaosium. These are not GURPS / WotC D&D4 levels of support - but they are not atrocious. Certainly, we'd all like more but lets not forget that, pretty much until the release of BRP, Chaosium was regarded as the dinosaur who had not embraced PDF publishing. Now they have and that's allowed them, despite very difficult circumstances in the past year to get BRP and five new supplements out (and two of those five supplements had some Chaosium editorial input, for what that's worth).

In that Chaosium are responsible for publication, marketing etc etc I'd say they do count, but I take your point

Chaosium have to grant approval of a license before a 3rd party can publish a BRP book - I even asked their permission before doing Uncounted Worlds and in some cases they need to take a more active role than that and have a definite part to play in fully distribution 3rd party products. This appears to be why the Deadworld project was stymied and, on a more positive note, RosenMcStern has indicated that he and Chaosum negotiated a specific license for Pete Nash's Rome. So they have definite part to play in enabling 3rd party support and lets hope that Rome is the first of many.

Agreed, what they need is publicity and a higher profile in the marketplace.

BRP is frequently talked about at RPGNet and on other internet forums; the new book has been reviewed by both Ken Hite and others; it's in the distribution channel and showing up in local game stores... But there is no advertising channel for RPG's anymore that hits all, or even just major chunks of the target demographic (very few print zine's are left and the breadth of their audience and thus the cost effectiveness of advertising in them is suspect).

And where is this "market place"? Five to ten years or more ago it may well have been primarily focused on bricks and mortar shops, but I really don't think it is anymore - it's Amazon, DriveThruRPG, RPGNow, Noble Knight, Infinity Games and ARG in the UK; it's here, and RPGNet and EN World: the market place is primarily online these days. Local game stores still have a crucial role to play - but they are now playing second fiddle to online retailers and PDF 'books' which can be delivered immediately and without the at times extortionate cost of over seas shipping.

Again, not saying Chaosium have got it exactly right - but I think the last year has seen them move to embrace the modern market more than at any time in the preceding decade and that gives me hope that they will continue to adapt and improve their market presence.

Certainly online PDF stuff would seem to be the quickest, cheapest way to go. Now here's an interesting thing, I just nipped over to RPG now, they have no monographs of any sort there, be it CoC or BRP, also the BRP rulesbook doesn't seem to be available. I can understand Chaosiums desire to cut out the middle man and sell direct from their site as it maximises profit margin....yet they do sell from RPGnow as there are some CoC products there, and they wouldn't do that unless they were turning a coin. Surely they must be able to cut some kind of deal with RPGnow, drivethruRPG, Paizo etc etc to get PDF products out there ?

That's a question for Chaosium, but at a guess - they don't like the cut that RPGNow / DriveThru (actually a single entity called One Book Shelf, as the two merged some time back but continue to trade under both brands) now take of PDF sales, hence not expanding the range they originally made available via that outlet. Many other small publishers have also not liked OBS's terms and have gone elsewhere.

Chaosium's second reason I would guess stems from the secondary purpose of the monographs - which is that in addition to making money for selling them, because they are exclusive to Chaosium's website, purchasers have to go to Chaosium's website and thus may buy something else direct from them. And Chaoisum makes more on direct sales.

As a strategy it has pro's and cons - I wish they were a little more consistent (some recent books such as Secrets of Kenya and Malleus Monstrorum are available as PDF's from OBS, but not the BRP core rulebook?) but I think the idea of having a line that is exclusive to the website (i.e. the monographs) but is effectively free delivery any where in the world (because you can but them as PDF's) is a shrewd idea. And I don't see any Steve Jackson Games PDF's at OBS or Paizo either...

Chers,

Nick

[dragonewt]

Unfortunately, Chaosium's track record isn't very good in this regard. I hope they can get some stuff out for BRP soon, but I'm not sure if they have the resources to do so.

In the light of the discussions that fragmented from this thread (rules and content, runes, etc...) would it be fair to say that Chaosium do not create a flood of games and content because they focus on certain standard of quality?

The threads seemed to come about because there are key factors that matter to people regarding the nature (depth, quality, standards, expression) of products.

Do people imply a question of quantity vs quality when discussing Chaosium support for BRP? IMHO, Chaosium is on the quality side.

Edited March 17, 2009 by dragonewt

[RosenMcStern]

Chaosium have to grant approval of a license before a 3rd party can publish a BRP book - I even asked their permission before doing Uncounted Worlds and in some cases they need to take a more active role than that and have a definite part to play in fully distribution 3rd party products.

This appears to be why the Deadworld project was stymied and, on a more positive note, RosenMcStern has indicated that he and Chaosum negotiated a specific license for Pete Nash's Rome. So they have definite part to play in enabling 3rd party support and lets hope that Rome is the first of many.

In fact, the license is never for a single game but for the right to use the system and the logos. It even states that the publisher must produce at least one supplement per year, so everyone's wish to see more third party products will certainly come true, as the license forces me to produce three more supplements. Not that I dislike the idea, mind me

That's a question for Chaosium, but at a guess - they don't like the cut that RPGNow / DriveThru (actually a single entity called One Book Shelf, as the two merged some time back but continue to trade under both brands) now take of PDF sales, hence not expanding the range they originally made available via that outlet. Many other small publishers have also not liked OBS's terms and have gone elsewhere.

More correctly they have self-assembled an alternate publisher called YourGamesNow which sells less but takes a smaller cut of the profits. And there are other shops appearing. That's the Internet, baby.

Chaosium's second reason I would guess stems from the secondary purpose of the monographs - which is that in addition to making money for selling them, because they are exclusive to Chaosium's website, purchasers have to go to Chaosium's website and thus may buy something else direct from them. And Chaoisum makes more on direct sales.

I guess (well, maybe I hope) there is another reason. Since Chaosium reserves the right to publish third party BRP stuff on its own via its web site and regular distribution channel (and in fact will do that massively), if the BRP line was present on OneBookShelf shops in Chaosium's product page, then the licenser would compete with the licensee on OBS, a situation that both could find counter-productive.

When BRP Rome is ready for a preview (i.e. soon) we'll uncover more details about its distribution channels, but the PDF will be present on at least four e-shops (counting OneBookShelf as one single shop).

[Jason D]

Wasn't there supposed to be a free BRP-lite? Anyone know what happened to that idea?

I wrote it, turned it in just before Lynn's health became an issue.

I suspect we'll be seeing it before too long in one form or another.

[Atgxtg]

In that Chaosium are responsible for publication, marketing etc etc I'd say they do count, but I take your point

The problem with monographs is that they do sell the the main RPG market. Basically it's preaching to the choir. The people who buy the monograqphs are already Chasoium fans.

Agreed, what they need is publicity and a higher profile in the marketplace.

Yeah. Except for CoC, Chasoium is practically an unknown. It's should seem obvious, but unless they make product avialable, people can't buy it.

Certainly online PDF stuff would seem to be the quickest ,cheapest way to go. Now here's an interesting thing, I just nipped over to RPG now, they have no monographs of any sort there , be it CoC or BRP,also the BRP rulesbook doesn't seem to be available. I can understand Chaosiums desire to cut out the middle man and sell direct from their site as it maximises profit margin....yet they do sell from RPGnow as there are some CoC products there, and they wouldn't do that unless they were turning a coin. Surely they must be able to cut some kind of deal with RPGnow, drivethruRPG, Paizo etc etc to get PDF products out there ?

That's what I mean about the monographs. To get one, a person has to go to the Chaosium website. I didn't even know that there were RQ3/BRP monographs until I read about them in a message board, and I'm a longtime RQ fan. The chances of those monographs selling to an average gamer are next to nil. There is really not much sense from a business standpoint in producing an RPG product and not making it available except at the company website. At least not for a small company like Chaosium.

I can understand wanting to print stuff, and I can understand wanting to keep as much as the profit they can, but neither approach is going to expand their customer base. PDFs are cheap to make, easy to release these days, and do not prevent them for continuing with what they are already doing.

I think a mix of a couple of free supplements, and some low cost PDFs from Chaosium is probably the best they they could do to support the game at this time.

[Atgxtg]

I wrote it, turned it in just before Lynn's health became an issue.

I suspect we'll be seeing it before too long in one form or another.

Good news (well, except for Lynn's health). Hope we see it soon. Maybe they could bundle it with an introductory adventure.

I remember years back there was something called Fantasy Paths. t was a pregenitor to things like "dungeoun tiles". One cool thing about the Fantasy Path sets was that they came with a copy of the old BRP rules and a mini adventure.

Something along those lines, with or without printable tiles would be a good way to draw attention to BRP.

[RosenMcStern]

The problem with monographs is that they do sell the the main RPG market. Basically it's preaching to the choir. The people who buy the monograqphs are already Chaosium fans.

Yeah. You just hit the spot atgigey.

That's what I mean about the monographs. To get one, a person has to go to the Chaosium website. I didn't even know that there were RQ3/BRP monographs until I read about them in a message board, and I'm a longtime RQ fan. The chances of those monographs selling to an average gamer are next to nil. There is really not much sense from a business standpoint in producing an RPG product and not making it available except at the company website. At least not for a small company like Chaosium.

Unless the company is relying on indies to provide the quantity of supplements needed. That's why I always advocated third party support (even before providing it myself).

And this is why we stil sell via OBS despite the higher fees. They are our (the indies) medium to reach the main audience, the ones who did not hear about us before.

[Atgxtg]

Rosen,

I agree that 3rd party support translates into more product. I just wish there was some way to ensure some sort of standard for quality. As D20 has showed, more is not always better. A lot of 3rd party stuff sucks. No advantage is doubling the products if half the product sucks. I7ve seen some things that were so dysfunctional I suspected the authors never even playtested it.

If hard to get Quantity and Quality. At least if it is from Chasoium I can exepect a certain level of quality.

[RosenMcStern]

I cannot vouch for D20, as I do not buy that stuff, but some of the products that came out for MRQ were good, some were of arguable quality (but not junk in any case). But even Mongoose products were not all fantastic, as everyone agrees, so you can expect mixed quality from everyone. BRP stuff so far is definitely above average, including the monographs.

There is only one licensee at present :innocent: . I hope that they can keep up with the good quality. And that more licensees appear.

[Jason D]

Something along those lines, with or without printable tiles would be a good way to draw attention to BRP.

Stay tuned...

[dragonewt]

Unless the company is relying on indies to provide the quantity of supplements needed. That's why I always advocated third party support (even before providing it myself).

An interesting contrast is that I only learned about Stupor Mundi via RosenMcStern's profile on this site. Which ultimately took me to RPGnow.com.

In the past I have searched RPGnow for "RuneQuest", "BRP", "Basic Roleplaying", and other combinations; and never once saw Stupor Mundi.

I guess that would place me in the category of someone looking specifically for BRP material.

Update: This time the search finds Stupor Mundi. I am not sure if I am blind or whether it didn't come up last time I searched.

[RosenMcStern]

Don't worry, your eyesight is still good. The point is that it has been there only since December. It was only on YourGamesNow before.

[Atgxtg]

Stay tuned...

Oooh. Thanks Jason. :thumb:

[Atgxtg]

I cannot vouch for D20, as I do not buy that stuff, but some of the products that came out for MRQ were good, some were of arguable quality (but not junk in any case). But even Mongoose products were not all fantastic, as everyone agrees, so you can expect mixed quality from everyone. BRP stuff so far is definitely above average, including the monographs.

True. Some of the best stuff for MRQ was from 3rd party companies. But Mongoose has a reputation for spotty quality. One of my local gaming shops doesn't even stock their products anymore because of their bad rep. Chaosium, on the other hand, has a rep for making good quality products. They may be slow, but at least they are consistent.

I just hope that if they let others product stuff for BRP, they implement some sort of policy to ensure some standard of quality.

One thing I am worried about is that many 3rd party companies can product stuff with greater speed and in greater quantity that Chaosium, and this could have a detrimental effect on the game. For instance, what if Mongoose started making BRP or MRQ/BRP products and produced a bunch of poor quality supplements?

[cjbowser]

One thing I am worried about is that many 3rd party companies can product stuff with greater speed and in greater quantity that Chaosium, and this could have a detrimental effect on the game. For instance, what if Mongoose started making BRP or MRQ/BRP products and produced a bunch of poor quality supplements?

3rd party support will still be dependent upon the Licensee contract that Chaosium enforces.

The number of products that can be released is limited.

Licensee shall release at least one new Basic Roleplaying supplement but not more than four new supplements during any one calendar year.

While that is in no way a guarantee of quality, it at least puts the kibosh on a single 3rd party flooding the market with tons of derivative material like happened during the d20 boom.

Chaosium is also enforcing a certain level of quality control.

Licensee shall use its best efforts and endeavors to produce said games and supplements in a first class manner and generally comparable or better than the Works. Licensee’s topics for supplements to the Works, the packaging for such supplements, and the content for such supplements shall be submitted to Chaosium for approval, in a timely enough manner that changes could be made without special harm to Licensee’s publication

schedule. Chaosium’s approval shall not be unreasonably withheld.

Chaosium will make its best efforts to inform licensees of duplicative or convergent creations in an advisory capacity, but bears no liability in the event that one or more licensee shall create or publish similar subject matter.

Again, that's no guarantee on exactly how things will play out, but if enforced as written will give Chaosium the opportunity to stop really dreadful works from hitting the market.

[vagabond]

One thing I am worried about is that many 3rd party companies can product stuff with greater speed and in greater quantity that Chaosium, and this could have a detrimental effect on the game. For instance, what if Mongoose started making BRP or MRQ/BRP products and produced a bunch of poor quality supplements?

More often than not. that is reflected in the opinion of the 3rd party - in this

case Mongoose - and not the licensor - in this case Chaosium.

Witness the significant quantities of horrid d20 crap that is still churned out.

It hasn't made Hasbro/WotC look any worse. The publisher that churns out

the crap is the one who suffers.

-V

[Atgxtg]

cj,

Thanks. It does appear that Chaosium is at least trying to avoid the pitfalls that came with OGL/D20. While anything that is of artistic merit is subjective by its very nature, the restrictions and guidelines indicate that there is going to be some attempt to get quality from 3rd party contributors.

I hope Chaosium can produce and release 4 products a year for BRP. :thumb: