Is Chaosium going to support BRP anymore?

[Aycorn]

I find the corerule book to be nicely compact and self-contained. For me it fulfils Jason's design goal that you can watch a film/read a book/come up with and idea and create it straight out the book.

My feeling on this whole matter is that the BRP book doesn't need constant new books and supplements month on month and I find it odd that people declare the game dead because Chaosium isn't churning out supplements to 'support' the game.

(Note: this is not intended to slag anyone here, I just don't know any way to put it without sounding like I'm slagging people, so please no one take offense) It's a different way of thinking which seems to be pretty prevalent among gamers that a system is "dead" if it's not producing regular supplements or new editions. It's one I don't subscribe to. I was playing BRP before and I'll be playing it now - only difference is now I have a really good core rule-book as opposed to lots of cobbled-together notes. It's not dead as long as people are playing and creating for it, even if Chaosium (god forbid) vanishes off the face of the earth.

[frogspawner]

Frankly, I'd rather Chaosium didn't produce supplements for BRP.

The postage from the US makes it too expensive, and I don't see my FLGS (Travelling Man, Leeds) stocking them.

I'd much rather the gap was filled by independently-produced stuff made available on Lulu (like Pete Nash's upcoming BRP Rome, via RosenMcStern's good offices). Then I could get prints of the latest edition(s) of Nick Middleton's Uncounted Worlds fanzine at the same time and save postage (which, for me, is otherwise also prohibitive for less than 4 issues - sorry Nick!).

[vagabond]

I find the corerule book to be nicely compact and self-contained. For me it fulfils Jason's design goal that you can watch a film/read a book/come up with and idea and create it straight out the book.

My feeling on this whole matter is that the BRP book doesn't need constant new books and supplements month on month and I find it odd that people declare the game dead because Chaosium isn't churning out supplements to 'support' the game.

Yes, but most of us here are talking from a "familiarity" stand point. We've

already played BRP, we know what it can do, we know what's out there,

etc.

Look at it from the newbie point of view - generic rules do not sell unless

there is something colorful attached to it. Do you think GURPS or Hero

would have the fanbase it does without at least one supported setting or

background supplement? Not everyone wants to create a world from

scratch, or even port a published world over to a new system - they want

to crack open the books and play. Again, for most of us, we know BRP

better than the back of our hands, and handling settings and systems

porting is almost trivial. But for those who haven't been playing BRP for

decades, they need more support. And, to stay in business and attract

new players, Chaosium needs to either put out official products on a

regular basis, or at least give their stamp of approval for 3rd party

publishers to do so. I'm not saying they need to adhere to a WotC/Hasbro

or Mongoose release schedule, but one or two softbound book every

month or two, with at least one having professional production values

and decent artwork, is almost necessary.

Chaosium really needs a house supported or officially sanctioned fantasy

setting, sci-fi setting, modern setting, and possibly supers setting.

CoC gives them a horror setting. Jason's Interplanetary might fulfill the

"fantasy" setting, though most probably want more classical fantasy.

Supers is kind of tough because that is the setting that BRP generally

doesn't do so well with, but perhaps a kind of Supers-noir setting would

work better - Dark Knight, Watchmen, etc. Something where the power

level could be turned down and the grittiness can come into play.

-V

[threedeesix]

(Note: this is not intended to slag anyone here, I just don't know any way to put it without sounding like I'm slagging people, so please no one take offense) It's a different way of thinking which seems to be pretty prevalent among gamers that a system is "dead" if it's not producing regular supplements or new editions. It's one I don't subscribe to. I was playing BRP before and I'll be playing it now - only difference is now I have a really good core rule-book as opposed to lots of cobbled-together notes. It's not dead as long as people are playing and creating for it, even if Chaosium (god forbid) vanishes off the face of the earth.

I agree Aycorn, I have always thought it was funny that some people think an RPG cant be played without a slew of supplements. How come only RPGs get this. I don't remember anyone saying they couldn't play Monopoly anymore without an expansion, or Chess, or Axis and Allies, or...

BRP is complete as is, I will buy supplements as they release them, but not because I need them to run my games, but because I want to support the system that I love. If, god forbid, nothing was to ever come out for BRP again, I would still be playing it years from now.

Rod

[rust]

It's a different way of thinking which seems to be pretty prevalent among gamers that a system is "dead" if it's not producing regular supplements or new editions.

I would not consider it "dead" as a roleplaying game, but I would indeed con-

sider it quite "dead" as a commercial product.

And while I do not need supplements, especially not regular supplements, I

would indeed appreciate at least some genre specific material and some ad-

ventures now and then.

True, I can write all the necessary stuff myself, but some input from other

sources is always welcome to complement my own imagination and add de-

tails to my setting and campaign I would not have thought of myself.

Plus, both my creativity and my time are limited, and I really like it if others

do some of the work for me, enabling me to concentrate more on my setting

and campaign specific stuff - I would even pay them for writing useful mate-

rial ...

Whether this material comes from Chaosium or third party publishers is not

important for me, provided it is published in a way that makes it easy for

me to buy and use it.

[Dalmuti]

I'm sorry but I think RosenMcStern and some others have sipped too much of the cool aid here. While I agree that it is a very good thing that there is finally some movement on the third party stuff this is not the only kind of support the community is crying out for. It is true that the system will survive in some form or another for those of us already familiar with it, with or without Chasoium, but commercially it will fail unless it keeps releasing some more support/supplement material on a regular basis and deals with errata and clarifications promptly for that material.

I for one would like an official errata and clarification sheet. I'm not talking about fixing misspellings, but rooting out and correcting the errors and inconsistencies caused by the "Cut & Paste" method some of this book suffers from. The system is designed to be easily house ruled, but after 20 years these rules should be rock solid and shouldn't require them. This is not a slam on the writers or playtesters, it not easy to do for this amount of material, but it has to be done and it should have been done already.

~Dalmuti

[Agentorange]

I'm not sure that BRP needs loads of supplements, but it certainly needs more than it has now. Back in the day when D20 was all the rage I bought a fair bit of it. Not because I play d20 ( I'm a BRP loyalist through and through ) but simply to plunder it for ideas. Stuff like Bastion press' Alchemy and Herbalism book, The Mythic Vistas stuff from Green Ronin ( eg Testament and Trojan war ) all sorts of little PDF's on interesting subjects. I bought it because it was there and filled a gap that BRP wasn't filling. I'm not a designer I'm a player. I have a job and family committments which means I don't have the time to generate everything I'd like to see. On my shelves I can see all sorts of GURPS books: Arabian nights, Greece, Imperial Rome, High tech, I didn't buy them because they were GURPS but because they filled a niche. I would have much rather been buying BRP Arabian nights......

Which is to say that whether it be chaosium or third party licensees there needs to be more material out there. My own personal opinion ( I'm never short of one ) is that Chaosium should aim at a 'core ' series of books consisting of:

Rule book

Bestiary ( two volumes maybe )

Magic supplement

Science fiction supplement

Psionics and powers supplement

Now from that any halfway clever player or Gm, even a total newbie should be able to construct a good solid game in pretty much any genre. doesn't stop having his own ideas or input but it provides a solid background. Add in monographs and third party products like Rome and your looking at a healthy game.

As regards how it's available well, print, POD, PDF all should be out there. if your local game or hobby store doesn't stock chaosium stuff on the shelf, nag them into ordering it for you. Orcs nest in London have ordered stuff in for me before ( in fact it's where I got my copy of the BRP rule book )

Orcs Nest Online Roleplaying Games Shop

If the profile of the game is raised then more people will give it a go. BRP is I think always destined to remain a cottage industry compared to D'n'D or GURPS but there is no reason why it can't be a successful cottage industry

[Al.]

Cool settings

Cool adventure seeds

Cool adventures

A LANDSCAPE GMs screen

Some more adventures

Now this is mainly personal opinion but........... Mongoose went against the grain at the time in moving AWAY from these things and towards a million and one rulebooks and have made money doing so but Chaosium don't seem* to want to or be geared up to churning out slim hardcover rulebooks every month.

Its also personal desire. The BRP rules are not perfect FOR ME. But they are usable and I cannot see them becoming more usable by releasing lots of adendums especially as the core book almost has a rule for every occasion.

I'd also love some more Sci-Fi stuff.

Al

* 'seem' as in I don't know and this conjecture

[seneschal]

I have to agree with vagabond and rust on the availability of supplemental material. Actual game setting/genre books are essential to attracting newbies such as myself (and their new dollars) to BRP. No matter how good or venerable a system is, game mechanics alone aren't what draws players. They are typically attracted to a genre (fantasy/science fiction) or a setting (Glorantha/The Imperium) first, and learn to love the system later. HERO System's success is built on the legacy of Champions and Justice, Inc. GURPS boomed based on its many historical and sub-genre supplements, often available from no one else. Traveller and Space 1889 (and some would argue, D&D) remain popular despite their sometimes awkward game mechanics. In contrast, other decent, workable RPG systems (D6, Action! System, Tri-Stat DX, among others; I've got dozens of them downloaded on my hard drive) languish or achieve limited commercial success because they were marketed as a system first, without a "killer app" setting to make them popular.

BRP has coasted along on the popularity of Call of Cthulhu, but if Chaosium wishes to continue and expand its success, they'll need current, in-print supplements to demonstrate how wonderful it is for things other than Lovecraftian horror. It's all very well for the BRP old-timers who started with RuneQuest ver. 1/2 to say, "Oh, yeah, that optional rule/setting/critter stat is available in Book X, published 37 years ago. I've got it here somewhere underneath my pile of old Top Secret and Boot Hill modules." But something a little more accessible would be nice for the rest of us.

[Al.]

It's all very well for the BRP old-timers who started with RuneQuest ver. 1/2 to say, "Oh, yeah, that optional rule/setting/critter stat is available in Book X, published 37 years ago. I've got it here somewhere underneath my pile of old Top Secret and Boot Hill modules." But something a little more accessible would be nice for the rest of us.

Wasn't that the very raison d'etre for the new BRP book in the first place? That and to kill of the sterile argument about out of print BRP books

Voice 1: 'Rule for Lasguns is in Ringworld'

Voice 2: 'Cool how do I get it?'

Voice 1:'You can't'

Voice 2:'I've found a free pdf on the net what about that?'

Voice 1:'You are taking the food from baby Jesus' mouth'

Voice 2:'Don't be silly'

Voice 3:'Okay but you are making it less likely that it be re-released commerically and make money for the author'

Voice 2:'Fair point'

Voice 4:'Don't care about IP, want Lasguns'

I can't see that there are many more rules which could be published for BRP. Much less that should. Speaking personally (maybe unrepresentatively) I cannot be bothered to half-learn any more anyway, Want settings. Want adventures.

Al

[RosenMcStern]

I for one would like an official errata and clarification sheet. I'm not talking about fixing misspellings, but rooting out and correcting the errors an inconsistencies caused by the "Cut & Paste" method some of this book suffers from.

This happened for MRQ, and some of the corrections were worse than the mistakes they were trying to fix. We have some errata on the wiki, and an official errata will come, but that is not mission critical. More settings, yes. More hi-tech-specific rules, yes. But the rules are fine as they are. Believe me, if my group likes them, they are good as they are.

[Dalmuti]

What? Are you some kind of shill for Chaosium? You'll have to excuse my tone but I'm loosing patience with your sycophantic drivel. This discussion is to point out and try and solve the problems of a lack of support from Chaosium for a product we like, and want to see do well. This includes pointing out failures and asking for specific solutions, such as an official errata. But lets address your latest obsequiousness.

This happened for MRQ, and some of the corrections were worse than the mistakes they were trying to fix.

This is what I would call a False Analogy. (The Logical Fallacies: False Analogy)

Just because MRQ did it poorly, which I care neither to agree or disagree with, does not mean Chaosium will as well. This, by the way, is a pretty out of character assessment by you of Chaosium's ability to do no wrong. Could your sinuses have cleared for a moment and you noticed the smell?

We have some errata on the wiki, and an official errata will come, but that is not mission critical.

I disagree. Supporting a product means follow up, it means addressing errors and inconsistencies, it means not being satisfied with your product being "fine". It means not leaving your customers to patch together work arounds for themselves. Other game companies seem to be able to figure this little business secret out and are able to release errata and clarification sheets within a reasonable amount of time, why not Chaosium? They have one official product in the BRP line, one, not dozens, one. To not at the very least correct it's mistakes and inconsistencies is inexcusable and indefensible.

But the rules are fine as they are. Believe me, if my group likes them, they are good as they are.

This is what I would call an Irrelevant Conclusion or maybe an Appeal to Popularity.

The Logical Fallacies: Irrelevant Conclusion<br>(<i>ignoratio elenchi </i>) The Logical Fallacies: Appeal to Popularity<br>(<i>argumentum ad populum</i>)

Just because your group is ok with the mistakes and inconsistencies, does not mean the rules are fine as they are.

For new players errors and inconsistencies are a source of confusion, for older players it's a potential source for argument as to which rule from which previous version should apply. Sure a lot of us have played long enough to figure it out in our own way but we shouldn't have to, and for $40 I have a right to expect that errors will be addressed.

Being an apologist for Chaosium doesn't help them better support the BRP community. Constructive criticism and making reasonable demands does.

~Dalmuti

[frogspawner]

What? Are you some kind of shill for Chaosium?

Please give the guy a break! As I understand it, RosenMcStern is one of the very few people actually doing something to break the Chaosium bottleneck.

[pulpcitizen]

Please give the guy a break! As I understand it, RosenMcStern is one of the very few people actually doing something to break the Chaosium bottleneck.

I have to concur - Dalmuti's question is harshly worded, and so more than a little unfair.

[Dalmuti]

Please give the guy a break! As I understand it, RosenMcStern is one of the very few people actually doing something to break the Chaosium bottleneck.

Really. Re-read all of his posts in this thread and find one that actually offers a suggestion other than wait and everything will turn out in the end. Seriously nearly all of his posts apologize for Chaosium or belittle others criticisms and ideas.

You disagree? His last post is a good example of being a little harsh and unfair, as well as being kind of a ----.

...and an official errata will come, but that is not mission critical. ... But the rules are fine as they are. Believe me, if my group likes them, they are good as they are.

What do you think he is saying here? I think he is discounting mine and others desire for an errata sheet, because our opinions don't matter, there not mission critical. Further they don't matter because his group is fine the way things are, and because his group is fine with it, so should everyone else.

Harsh, maybe, but you should be just as annoyed with his condescending remarks as I am.

~Dalmuti

[cjbowser]

Really. Re-read all of his posts in this thread and find one that actually offers a suggestion other than wait and everything will turn out in the end. Seriously nearly all of his posts apologize for Chaosium or belittle others criticisms and ideas.

I'm not going to argue your points about Chaosium needing to step up, because they do. Probably not with an errata, but with support materials. Errata can be slipped onto a website or a wiki and announced to the public, but it's really not going to sell more copies of BRP. Excellent new content is what's going to sell more copies of BRP...

And, to speak to the need for content, you're content to bemoan the state of affairs on the forum while RM is actually publishing a book in support of BRP. So, I don't really see the to launch into personal attacks of RM without knowing him personally.

Also, don't belittle the work of the people who put out Ashes to Ashes, Berlin 61, or Outpost 19 by saying there's only one BRP book out there. All three of those books are published by Chaosium and have the Chaosium logo on the covers. Looks pretty damn official to me. As to being in retail stores, that a different argument.

You can talk until you're blue in the face on an anonymous internet forum about ways Chaosium needs to change, but have you submitted a work to them, offered to assist with editorial duties, or even simply told them formally, via email, snail mail, or a phone call that you're dissatisfied and would like to see more?

[RosenMcStern]

:shocked: OMG, Frogspawner actually supporting me? Repent, O sinners! The End of the World is near!

Dalmuti, I think that all of your points are simply disqualified by your calling me words (albeit under the cover of dashes). I have argumented against your views, but you are just attacking my person. This does not make me angry, it simply makes your words less appealing to most listeners, I suppose. Which is a pity because I appreciated many of the ideas you expressed in your first post in this thread.

I am not defending Chaosium for the sake of it. I have been their customer for 20+ years (and will be their licensee as soon as the contract I sent this morning comes back from California), and I know they do publish errata. We had the RQ3 errata after some time, didn't we? And six editions of CoC, and five of SB. So there is no reason to think they will not publish an errata once they have a good idea about what is to be fixed.

Of course, not all that Charlie, Greg (when he was still in charge) & co. did during the years was right. Steve Jackson understood the market value of a generalist system sooner than them, and now the gap between BRP and GURPS is almost impossible to fill, despite the system being easier and more flexible. But this happened 20 years ago, and now people at Chaosium have understood their mistake. Too little too late? Time, and not our rants on this forum, will tell.

[rust]

Also, don't belittle the work of the people who put out ... Outpost 19 ...

In my view, Outpost 19 is an excellent example of the kind of material I would

consider most useful to support BRP: A very good adventure with enough set-

ting information, even including some new rules and equipment, to continue

from there with your own campaign, if you want - and at a very reasonable

price.

[soltakss]

The "Great" Dalmuti has been stirring things up, hasn't he?

What? Are you some kind of shill for Chaosium?

As far as I know, Paolo (RosenMcStern in real life) does not work for Chaosium but has been playing BRP-based games for many years. He has written Stupor Mundi for RQM which is compatible with BRP and is planning to produce a number of BRP supplements. But a shill? I don't think so.

You'll have to excuse my tone but I'm loosing patience with your sycophantic drivel.

"You'll have to excuse my tone" is a similar statement to "I'm not a racist but ..." - it just means that something rude is going to follow.

Paolo is definitely not sycophantic but he does recognise what is a problem and what isn't.

Just because MRQ did it poorly, which I care neither to agree or disagree with, does not mean Chaosium will as well. This, by the way, is a pretty out of character assessment by you of Chaosium's ability to do no wrong. Could your sinuses have cleared for a moment and you noticed the smell?

I think it is more a case of your incorrect reading of the intention behind his posts has clouded your judgement.

I disagree. Supporting a product means follow up, it means addressing errors and inconsistencies, it means not being satisfied with your product being "fine". It means not leaving your customers to patch together work arounds for themselves. Other game companies seem to be able to figure this little business secret out and are able to release errata and clarification sheets within a reasonable amount of time, why not Chaosium? They have one official product in the BRP line, one, not dozens, one. To not at the very least correct it's mistakes and inconsistencies is inexcusable and indefensible.

When there are serious errors in the product then an errata is justified. The errors that have been highlighted so far are relatively minor and won't stop anyone from playing the game. It might be worth producing an errata as part of another supplement, in the same way that RQ had errata in the RQ2 rulebook and in RQ2 Companion. But, in my opinion, the level and number of errors does not make producing an errata a priority. Mongoose had far more serious erros in their RQ supplements and haven't produced an official errata, so why should Chaosium? It's a business decision and, I think, a fair one.

Just because your group is ok with the mistakes and inconsistencies, does not mean the rules are fine as they are.

The point that I think he was making, or what I immediately thought he was making, is that if his very picky group has no problems with the rules then most other people will have no problems with the rules.

For new players errors and inconsistencies are a source of confusion, for older players it's a potential source for argument as to which rule from which previous version should apply. Sure a lot of us have played long enough to figure it out in our own way but we shouldn't have to, and for $40 I have a right to expect that errors will be addressed.

Older players will always argue about the rules. I am disappointed that BRP wasn't more heavily based on RQ and I would use more RQ rules in any BRP game. However, that doesn't mean that I am disappointed with the BRP rules.

New players will accept that there are inconsistencies and either move on to another game or will try and solve them through forums such as this one, by buying new supplements or by houseruling. It isn't that big a deal.

Being an apologist for Chaosium doesn't help them better support the BRP community.

Paolo is definitely not an apologist for Chaosium.

Constructive criticism and making reasonable demands does.

And what about being rude and argumentative? Has that helped your case at all?

Really. Re-read all of his posts in this thread and find one that actually offers a suggestion other than wait and everything will turn out in the end. Seriously nearly all of his posts apologize for Chaosium or belittle others criticisms and ideas.

So, helping other people produce BRP supplements isn't being constructive?

You disagree? His last post is a good example of being a little harsh and unfair, as well as being kind of a ----.

Not at all. Perhaps you are being over sensitive. And rude.

What do you think he is saying here? I think he is discounting mine and others desire for an errata sheet, because our opinions don't matter, there not mission critical. Further they don't matter because his group is fine the way things are, and because his group is fine with it, so should everyone else.

Everyone has an opinion. If I slagged everyone off who disagreed with me then I would spend most of my time angry at people. Paolo's opinion matters. Your opinion matters. My opinion matters. Chaosium probably won't take any of out opinions into account, but hey that's life, get used to it.

Harsh, maybe, but you should be just as annoyed with his condescending remarks as I am.

No, we should be as annoyed about people being rude and argumentative. Oh. sorry, that's just you.

This has been a constructive thread. I hope it doesn't degenerate into a slanging match. Maybe the soothing sound of mandibles will calm things down a bit.

[Trifletraxor]

"I grew up in the insect pens of Dagori Inkarth, and I know no so soothing sound as that of clicking mandibles!"

Personal attacks in a thread not titled BRP vs. MRQ? That's pulling it a bit too far. Stay polite gents!

I would also like to see Chaosium churn out more supplements for BRP at a fast speed, but that won't happen. They are too few, and work at their own pace. I'm just happy Interplanetary is back in line, that we might still see a sequel to Ashes to Ashes (hmm, should have written that review by now), and the support BRP is getting from the fanzine, third party publishers and new monographs. Chaosium will probably never be as successfull as Mongoose, that's just something we have to deal with.

SGL.

[PK Games]

I dont know, I am a bit skeptical at this point. Its been about 8 months since the book was released. And while the monographs (except Berlin '61, which just sucks LOL) are cool and fun and all, and help fill the void of what osme people see as missing releases, these are fan made materials and a very cheap and stingy way for Chaosium to publish books.

How hard would it really be for Chaosium to raid what rights they have to their previous published Stormbringer, Elric!, Elfquest, Cthulhu Dark Ages and other "fantasy" settings for them to create a BRP Fantasy book? Or Ringworld, Future World to make a BRP Sci-Fi book?

And a BRP Monster book is also a fast make.

But alas, its not like I get to play games as it is, what with my time in Afghanistan at the moment. But I look forward to just sitting down one of the weekends I am back home and just playing a multi verse BRP game and just drawing from all the books as I grab them off the shelf.

I remember in the 90s mixing CoC and SuperWorld, and a GM once ran Stormbringer with a Mythos twist at the end.

[frogspawner]

OMG, Frogspawner actually supporting me? Repent, O sinners! The End of the World is near!

Fear not the Apocalypse. I'd happily see you flamed to heck as an opposed-rolling, Mongoose-fondling heretic (after BRP Rome is safely up on Lulu!) - but I won't see it done unfairly.

Personal attacks in a thread not titled BRP vs. MRQ? That's pulling it a bit too far. Stay polite gents!

Yeah, calm down Gents. You should be ashamed. Don't we all feel some of Dalmuti's frustration?

[frogspawner]

Going back to the OP, Dustin's January "R'lyeh Report" is not very encouraging:

Looking back, 2008 was a pretty average year for us when it comes to new releases. We managed to get four new titles published: The Strange Cases of Rudolph Pearson, Basic Roleplaying, The Klarkash-Ton Cycle, and Secrets of Morocco. ...

Here is my best guess as to what the first half of the year will bring us.

March - <some Cthulhu thing>

April - <some Cthulhu thing>

May - <some Cthulhu thing>

We have other titles in the works of course, including <some Cthulhu thing>, <some Cthulhu thing>, <some Cthulhu thing>, and <some Cthulhu thing>. These titles will likely release late in 2009.

(emphases mine)

They publish BRP and regard it as just a minor part of "a pretty average year", lost amongst a whelter of Cthulhoid stuff (of no interest to me) and with no projected supporting material deemed worthy of mention. Even the report has a Cthulhoid name.

I can't see any likelihood of Fantasy/Historical/Sci-Fi/etc BRP material from Chaosium. If they are planning some, why do it secretly? That betrays lack of commitment.

[PK Games]

Ive noticed they publish way too much Cthulhu short stories

[cjbowser]

Ive noticed they publish way too much Cthulhu short stories

I can't fault them for that. Fiction is easy money, particularly if the already own the rights. It allows them to pull from a much wider customer base than any RPG material and even gain entry to stores that wouldn't look twice at an RPG book.

I just hope they're using that income to diversify their line.