Fleeing Combat

[Mechashef]

Yet again this probably falls into the category of whatever the GM decides but I'm curious as to what the general consensus is.

 

David and Ella are in melee combat.  Frank is outside of melee and armed with a bow.

David's Statement of Intent (SoI) is that he will flee.

Ella's SoI is that she will attack David with her broadsword and parry with her shield.

Frank's SoI is that he will shoot two arrows at Ella

 

The rules for fleeing state:

Quote

In desperation, a disengaging adventurer can simply turn and run.  This leaves the disengaging character open and defenceless - their opponent can make one attack against the adventurer which cannot be parried or Dodged.

SRs are:

• David has a Dex SR of 3
• Ella has a SR of 2 (Dex) + 2 ( Siz) + 2 (Broadsword) = 6
• Frank's SR for his first shot  is 2 (Dex)
• Frank's SR for his second shot is 2 (1st shot) + 5 (reload) + 2 (2nd shot) = 9 

 

When does David's movement start and when does Ella's attack take place?

In most cases it isn't important, but if Frank shoots an arrow at Ella on SR 2 it could have an effect.

Is it that:

1. David's movement and Ella's attack are assumed to occur at SR 1, that means Ella's attack has been brought forward 5 SRs.  That would presumably also mean that if Frank shot an arrow at Ella on SR 2, then he would have his normal chance of hitting her because he is no longer firing into melee.  The same would apply to his 2nd shot on SR 9.
2. They are in melee all the round and David can move his full movement rate at the end of SR 12.  Ella can attack on SR 6.  Frank gets his attacks on SR 2 and 9.  Both his attacks would use the "Shooting Into Melee" rules.  Frank could incapacitate or kill Ella before she can attack David (or David before he can flee).
3. David starts moving at his Dex SR of 3 and Ella's attack is brought forward to SR 3. Frank's 1st shot on SR 2 would use the "Shooting Into Melee" rules, while his 2nd shot on SR 9 would have his normal chance of hitting Ella.  Frank could incapacitate or kill Ella before she can attack David (or David before he can flee).
4. David's movement is delayed until SR 6 which is when Ella's attack occurs.  Frank's 1st shot on SR 2 would use the "Shooting Into Melee" rules, while his 2nd shot on SR 9 would have his normal chance of hitting Ella.  Frank could incapacitate or kill Ella before she can attack David (or David before he can flee).
5. Some other option.

 

Thanks

 

 

[David Scott]

I would play number 4

The movement section on p195 says

Quote

An adventurer engaged in melee cannot move until disengaged.

SR 2 Frank shoots

SR 3 David Start's to move to disengage, naturally Ella follows to strike (under minor criteria movement)

SR4 David is dancing around looking for a break (An adventurer engaged in melee cannot move until disengaged)

SR5 David is dancing around looking for a break (An adventurer engaged in melee cannot move until disengaged)

SR6 David is dancing around looking for a break, naturally Ella follows to strike. Ella strikes with her Broadsword.

SR7 David is disengaged and has moved 3m. Frank has reloaded

SR8 David is disengaged and has moved 6m

SR9 David is disengaged and has moved 9m, Frank fires.

I use the Infinity Engine's strike rank counter in my games. Once every one places their counters it is normally obvious what is going on.

https://www.infinity-engine.com/index.php?id_product=122&controller=product

[Kloster]

24 minutes ago, David Scott said:

I would play number 4

The movement section on p195 says

SR 2 Frank shoots

SR 3 David Start's to move to disengage, naturally Ella follows to strike (under minor criteria movement)

SR4 David is dancing around looking for a break (An adventurer engaged in melee cannot move until disengaged)

SR5 David is dancing around looking for a break (An adventurer engaged in melee cannot move until disengaged)

SR6 David is dancing around looking for a break, naturally Ella follows to strike. Ella strikes with her Broadsword.

SR7 David is disengaged and has moved 3m. Frank has reloaded

SR8 David is disengaged and has moved 6m

SR9 David is disengaged and has moved 9m, Frank fires.

I use the Infinity Engine's strike rank counter in my games. Once every one places their counters it is normally obvious what is going on.

https://www.infinity-engine.com/index.php?id_product=122&controller=product

I would also say 4, but unfortunately, there is not anymore the 3m/SR in RQG, so all of David's movement would be in SR6.

[David Scott]

11 minutes ago, Kloster said:

unfortunately, there is not anymore the 3m/SR in RQG, so all of David's movement would be in SR6

Movement page 195

Quote

For each unit (3 meters) of movement an unengaged adventurer makes during the melee round, add +1 to their strike rank if they wish to take any action.

As we are still in the same melee round and hence strike ranks, the action of the unengaged is to move so 3m/SR.

[PhilHibbs]

1 hour ago, David Scott said:

SR6 David is dancing around looking for a break, naturally Ella follows to strike. Ella strikes with her Broadsword.

SR7 David is disengaged and has moved 3m. Frank has reloaded

That would imply that David can parry on SR6, and then disengage the next SR. This goes against the rule that Ella gets a free undefended shot. Or are you saying that a parry on SR6 would prevent movement on SR7? Or, if he parries, then he can't disengage unless he gives Ella another free strike at him? If so why can't he disengage on SR1 or SR3 and give Ella the free hit then instead of a normal hit AND a free hit?

My reading is much more simple. He acts on his DEX SR, moves out of combat, disengaging, and giving Ella a free shot on SR3.

Edited April 4, 2019 by PhilHibbs

[Kloster]

1 hour ago, David Scott said:

Movement page 195

As we are still in the same melee round and hence strike ranks, the action of the unengaged is to move so 3m/SR.

I don't understand it that way. SR are describe as NOT being a measure of time spent, but a mean to determine the order of actions. Note that I am no defending this position: I would prefer the RQIII way of doing (3m/SR for moves, and roughly 1.2 sec per SR) because (among other points) there is much less ambiguity like these.

[DerKrieger]

Don't you only disengage on SR12 or is that just a fighting retreat?

[Kloster]

10 minutes ago, DerKrieger said:

Don't you only disengage on SR12 or is that just a fighting retreat?

According to RQG p195, the fighting retreat takes 1 full round, so you are disengaged after SR12 (or 6 if mounted and your opponent is not), but the 'flee' option has no duration.

[Psullie]

why does David hang about? His SoI was flee so on his Dex SR he turns and runs. If he was in single combat that is when the opponents would get the free attack (which seems to ignore all SR so a GM may impose limits). The presence of Ella however would prevent a free attack on David as the opponent is engaged. Basically having allies in a fight makes it very easy to withdraw.

[soltakss]

21 hours ago, Mechashef said:

Yet again this probably falls into the category of whatever the GM decides but I'm curious as to what the general consensus is.

My Number One Rule is "If you can do it in Real Life then you can do it with RuneQuest".

In Real Life, if I turn and flee, then that should be possible. If the other combatant wants to chase after me, then that is possible as well.

21 hours ago, Mechashef said:

When does David's movement start and when does Ella's attack take place?

In most cases it isn't important, but if Frank shoots an arrow at Ella on SR 2 it could have an effect.

Is it that:

1. David's movement and Ella's attack are assumed to occur at SR 1, that means Ella's attack has been brought forward 5 SRs.  That would presumably also mean that if Frank shot an arrow at Ella on SR 2, then he would have his normal chance of hitting her because he is no longer firing into melee.  The same would apply to his 2nd shot on SR 9.
2. They are in melee all the round and David can move his full movement rate at the end of SR 12.  Ella can attack on SR 6.  Frank gets his attacks on SR 2 and 9.  Both his attacks would use the "Shooting Into Melee" rules.  Frank could incapacitate or kill Ella before she can attack David (or David before he can flee).
3. David starts moving at his Dex SR of 3 and Ella's attack is brought forward to SR 3. Frank's 1st shot on SR 2 would use the "Shooting Into Melee" rules, while his 2nd shot on SR 9 would have his normal chance of hitting Ella.  Frank could incapacitate or kill Ella before she can attack David (or David before he can flee).
4. David's movement is delayed until SR 6 which is when Ella's attack occurs.  Frank's 1st shot on SR 2 would use the "Shooting Into Melee" rules, while his 2nd shot on SR 9 would have his normal chance of hitting Ella.  Frank could incapacitate or kill Ella before she can attack David (or David before he can flee).
5. Some other option.

As a GM, I would say (5) some other option.

David has a higher SR then Ella, but can move before she attacks, as he would start moving on SR3 and she attacks on SR6.

Frank gets his first shot in at SR2, while they are in combat.

Now, if Ella doesn't chase after him, then Frank gets his second shot in on SR7 and they are out of combat.

However, if Ella decides to chase after him then things get tricky. If you apply the 5 SR penalty for changing your statement of intent, then Ella can't start moving until SR8, which is patently ridiculous. I'd apply her DEX SR penalty while she realises what has happened, then allow her to move, so she probably starts moving on SR5 and Frank can shoot her while moving.

If Ella and David move at the same rate, then Ella can never catch David, unless one of them stops through Fatigue Loss, so Ella should probably throw her sword at him in a last-ditch attempt to stop him, or give up.

 

[PhilHibbs]

17 minutes ago, soltakss said:

David has a higher SR then Ella, but can move before she attacks, as he would start moving on SR3 and she attacks on SR6.

So to "their opponent can make one attack against the adventurer which cannot be parried or Dodged", you would add the caveat "...if their DEX, SIZ, and weapon SR is lower than the fleeing adventurer's DEX SR alone"?

[soltakss]

26 minutes ago, PhilHibbs said:

So to "their opponent can make one attack against the adventurer which cannot be parried or Dodged", you would add the caveat "...if their DEX, SIZ, and weapon SR is lower than the fleeing adventurer's DEX SR alone"?

Potentially. It all depends on the situation. A Great Troll with a Troll Maul and high DEX would attack on SR1. If facing someone with a low DEX, who cannot act until SR4, why should they lose their attack just because someone moves away?

If moving away gives your a free attack, then sure, the attack happens without SR considerations. But someone trying to follow should get their normal attack in first.

[David Scott]

20 hours ago, PhilHibbs said:

That would imply that David can parry on SR6, and then disengage the next SR. This goes against the rule that Ella gets a free undefended shot. 

No as the statement of intent was to disengage. I’d  not allow I stand my ground and parry then disengage. That’s two things. 

[PhilHibbs]

31 minutes ago, David Scott said:

No as the statement of intent was to disengage. I’d  not allow I stand my ground and parry then disengage. That’s two things. 

Do if David can only disengage on the SR after Ella's attack, what if Ella was attacking on SR12? What if two people are attacking David on different SRs, doe she disengage separately from each of them on the SR after their respective attacks?

Surely it's simpler to just say he disengages on his DEX SR, they get free attacks, done.

Edited April 5, 2019 by PhilHibbs

[soltakss]

I prefer a strict SR implementation for things such as Disengaging, Fleeing and Moving.

Swifty the Great Troll has DEX 21, SIZ 30 and a Quarterstaff, so attacks on SR1. Slowy has SIZ 6, DEX 3 and is using a dagger, so attacks on SR 11.

If Swifty and Slowy are in combat and Slowy wants to disengage, is that the same as if Swifty wants to disengage? According to the rules, the person who disengages can and the other person gets a free attack. 

[Sumath]

I'd say disengaging is done on the combatant's DEX SR.

[OxygenO2]

Quote

In any combat, someone is going to have the edge—the
opportunity of striking first and setting the pattern for the
combat. Strike rank determines who has the first chance
to make a successful attack. - RQG p.192

Thus, within a melee, an adventurer’s strike rank indicates
when they may initiate an attack. However, the adventurer
is performing that attack for the entire round and can do
little else except parry or Dodge. - RQG p.195

(emphasis by me)

I think these two paragraphs helps a lot when trying to understand SRs. With that (and the rules for fleeing) I would say #3, usually the opening that Ella is looking for presents itself on SR6 but in this case David turns to flee at SR3 and Ella, already looking for an opportunity to strike, makes the attack emmidiately.

[Mechashef]

Thank you people.  Some very helpful answers.

 

 

Now I have the image of an old veteran clan warrior training some of their young warriors:

Veteran: "It is important to always remember that warriors of our clan never flee from battle"

Young warrior: "Is that because it would bring dishonour on the clan?"

Veteran: "No.  It's because we can't work out how to do it!"