Ernaldan manipulation at the largest scale

[Charles]

recently, I've been thinking about the claims that Ernalda was/is Arachne Solara/Ginna Jar. To me, this smacks of seriously large scale manipulation of the Hero Plane and God Place.

Ernaldan temples and priestesses do seem to be far more organised than Orlanth's, with more communications and mutual recognition between them. If they have 'recently' decided to spread the message that Ernalda is actually the goddess Glorantha, then the myriads of of Orlanthi rural clans will incorporate that idea into their Ernaldan rituals. These many small and not so small worship ceremonies will change the God Place. My speculation is that the Visionaries of Enervi foresaw the HeroWars and took action to plant this new truth after some trigger event, such as the Cradle or the rise of the Boat planet.

Thoughts?

[Bill the barbarian]

Careful Gustaf, you may be accused of being a striking grognard (I hear they are as popular as ducks in these parts).

Hmm, query. Where would I go to find a beginning to ponder this question; the Stafford Library, KoS, or?

citations are your friend!

Edited April 18, 2019 by Bill the barbarian

[Bill the barbarian]

Quote

in the GtG v1 on page 255 I find one line and its index citation in v2 for Enervi

One of the most famous temples here is the Cave of Serpents, where the Sibyls of Enervi interpret the visions of Kev. The priestesses receive gifts both great and small from supplicants from all over Glorantha.

and this is the only quote I can find in the GTG after searching electronically.

Quote

The SKoH provides this for a search for Enervi on page 114 under the heading Ezel

Thirteen great temples, each with orders of priests and priestesses, are dug deep into the earth. One of the most famous temples of Ezel is the Temple of the Cave of Serpents where the Sibyls of Enervi interpret the visions of Kev. They receive gifts both great and small from supplicants all over the world. At any given time thousands – sometimes tens of thousands – of pilgrims worship the Great Goddess at Ezel

Obviously there is a rabbit hole asking me to dive in...

[Sir_Godspeed]

A lot of Gloranthan cosmologies appear to be based on magnitudes of transcendence/emanation/degradation (pick your preferred term). The Malkioni are very explicit about this, of course, but Earth with its age-progression view of the Goddess might also tap into this kind of perspective to a degree. The Land Goddesses are local instance of THE Land Goddess. Ernalda is a particular "refraction" of Gata, and so forth.

In that sense, the idea that Ernalda is some kind of higher deity, indeed Glorantha herself, or Arachne Solara does not really have to be so much a manipulation, as it is a logical conclusion drawn from the already underlying logic of their worldview.

[Joerg]

8 hours ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

A lot of Gloranthan cosmologies appear to be based on magnitudes of transcendence/emanation/degradation (pick your preferred term). The Malkioni are very explicit about this, of course, but Earth with its age-progression view of the Goddess might also tap into this kind of perspective to a degree. The Land Goddesses are local instance of THE Land Goddess. Ernalda is a particular "refraction" of Gata, and so forth.

In that sense, the idea that Ernalda is some kind of higher deity, indeed Glorantha herself, or Arachne Solara does not really have to be so much a manipulation, as it is a logical conclusion drawn from the already underlying logic of their worldview.

There is Ernalda's participation in the Lightbringer's Quest, too. Her going to sleep (or deepest meditation) and emanating Ginna Jar to join the questers may have been a transformation beyond just taking on the role of the owner of the Earth Rune.

[EricW]

Suggesting there is only one Earth goddess is like suggesting their is only one air god, that Orlanth, Storm Bull and Humakt are all expressions of Umath. 

Ernalda has daughters who are likely chaotic (Dorasta), even undead (Ernalda's undead grotto). 

Granted there is a close connection, a progression. Perhaps daughter is an anthropomorphism, the different land goddesses could be what Ernalda would have been if she had travelled different paths, now frozen in time. But for whatever reason, there are differences between the Earth goddesses, in some cases as profound as the differences between the air gods.

The God Learner Goddess Swap was attempted because the God Learners thought there was only one Earth Goddess. The Goddess Swap failed because they have were wrong.

[soltakss]

6 minutes ago, EricW said:

The God Learner Goddess Swap was attempted because the God Learners thought there was only one Earth Goddess. The Goddess Swap failed because they have were wrong.

The God Learner Goddess Swap worked because the God Learners proved there was only one Earth Goddess. The Goddess Swap failed because they were wrong.

[Sir_Godspeed]

7 hours ago, EricW said:

Suggesting there is only one Earth goddess is like suggesting their is only one air god, that Orlanth, Storm Bull and Humakt are all expressions of Umath. 

Ernalda has daughters who are likely chaotic (Dorasta), even undead (Ernalda's undead grotto). 

Granted there is a close connection, a progression. Perhaps daughter is an anthropomorphism, the different land goddesses could be what Ernalda would have been if she had travelled different paths, now frozen in time. But for whatever reason, there are differences between the Earth goddesses, in some cases as profound as the differences between the air gods.

The God Learner Goddess Swap was attempted because the God Learners thought there was only one Earth Goddess. The Goddess Swap failed because they have were wrong.

The idea of multiple differentiated units being part of a undifferentiated whole should not really be too hard to imagine to someone grown up in the mostly Christian West: The Son is God, the Father is God, the Spirit is God: but the Son is not the Father, is not the Spirit.

In other words, Ernalda is The Goddess, Seshna is The Goddess, Asrelia is The Goddess, Maran Gor is The Goddes: but Ernalda is not Maran Gor, is not Seshna, etc.*

Or, put into some phenomenological form: my left arm is me. My right arm is me. But my right arm is not my left arm.

The question "thea-sophists" of the Theyalan Earth Tradition are going to disagree vehemently on, probably, is what exactly the deeper nature of the The Goddess is, and what the limits of The Goddess is. This is an area very fertile for some great plot lines, where players are probably free to declare this or that as incorrect or correct. 

As you mentioned, I'd imagine plenty of orthodox Earth Priestesses would find "pseudo-pantheistic" argument heretical and self-evidently wrong. Others might bob their head from side to side and admit that there are deeper truths into the identity and workings of The Goddess, and us mortals can only ever spy a little of Her. Some might take this further. Who knows.

(*The Voria-Ernalda-Asrelia trinity is already pretty obvious, and might even be considered a trinity-within-a-pantheity, or more simply put, comparable to the differentiation of the fingers on a hand versus the differentiation of all limbs to a body. Still separate, but more closely linked.)

Edited April 19, 2019 by Sir_Godspeed

[scott-martin]

1 hour ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

The question "thea-sophists" of the Theyalan Earth Tradition are going to disagree vehemently on, probably, is what exactly the deeper nature of the The Goddess is, and what the limits of The Goddess is. This is an area very fertile for some great plot lines, where players are probably free to declare this or that as incorrect or correct. 

I like the thea-sophical (theya-sophical?) note for raising the question of whether there were Goddess Learners circulating out of the Jrustelan academies and if so, where they went to ground. MGF as you point out, even if it was only a trouser role. For all we know "the historical Menena cult" is a political reconstruction engineered by some very smart and very brave witches and that's great. Ditto esoteric feminism in Esrolia and places like that.

I suspect part of the friction between the Lunar Empire and Theyalan esoteric feminists is that while the Entekosiad and similar arguments are compelling, the conclusions aren't always comfortable. Old Tarsh violently rejected the Hon-Eel argument, etc. This provides a narrative opportunity for thea-logians to determine whether all "women's spirituality" converges or whether the girls can be as fractious as the dudes despite the reductive Earth Rune left over from Robert Graves.

For me I love a world with as many women as possible and I adore variety but I have a hard time following more than one local land goddess at once. That said, she has a crowd of friends, all ages, attitudes, shapes and skin tones. Some of them get a little mixed up in my head because I'm not paying perfect attention. Others distinguish themselves constantly. The one who runs Zoria isn't the one who reigns in Nochet or even the one up in Cliffhome, for example. That's great.  

Thankfully "Orlanthi all" of them are obsessed with yarn, which is how the weaver goddess stays in the picture.

[redmoongoddess]

I wish there were more stories in Glorantha about Ernalda being a sneaky piece of shit then there are currently.

[Joerg]

18 minutes ago, Redmoongodess said:

I wish there were more stories in Glorantha about Ernalda being a sneaky piece of shit then there are currently.

You mean like "The Making of the Storm Tribe"? The "Wooing of Ernalda"?

[jajagappa]

4 hours ago, Redmoongodess said:

I wish there were more stories in Glorantha about Ernalda being a sneaky piece of shit then there are currently.

Ernalda stole them all and gave them to Asrelia for safekeeping.  And the folks who knew the stories were all sent to Ty Kora Tek's Caves of Silence.

[Sir_Godspeed]

9 hours ago, Joerg said:

You mean like "The Making of the Storm Tribe"? The "Wooing of Ernalda"?

In the Wooing of Ernalda, at least, she's dealing with Orlanth who is basically being a temperamental, insecure teen.