Logician - seriously OP???

[Shiningbrow]

Back to annoy again....

As per the RAW, surely the sorcery spell is the most OP spell in the game? Sure, it's only about *any* knowledge skill, and you don't have to specify which skill when you learn the spell, but surely it would mean that any LM initiate is suddenly fully knowledgable in *any* cult lore, and thus has access to every single cult secret on Glorantha. That's on top of the more mundane uses it has (which, realistically, would also include doing the rolls for seasonal income, for skills like Read/Write, Bureaucracy, Manage Household... and previously mentioned, Battle).

"Does anyone know how to sail this ship?"... "yeah, give me a minute...".

"50L for this lovely ring - pure gold!".... <chant chant, zing>... "rubbish - it's fake and not worth 10".

"Help help, I've been bitten by a snake!" <mumble mumble> "No problem I know exactly what to do...".

 

Perhaps a rewrite of this spell is in order??? At the very least, it would make sense that it can only be applied to knowledge skills you have already taken, or are over the 00 base.

(really, this post should be in the munchkin thread...)

[Joerg]

Any one knowledge skill, for all the duration. Works only on the caster. Sounds to me like becoming a variable one trick pony.

The munchkin will ask what is to stop him from having this on for all knowledge skills.

But no, this doesn't give insight to cult secrets, as those are deep magics that require the initiate bonds.

 

[Shiningbrow]

4 minutes ago, Joerg said:

Any one knowledge skill, for all the duration. Works only on the caster. Sounds to me like becoming a variable one trick pony.

The munchkin will ask what is to stop him from having this on for all knowledge skills.

But no, this doesn't give insight to cult secrets, as those are deep magics that require the initiate bonds.

 

I don't think it's too munchkinny... it's actually the intelligent thing to do (multiple castings of the same spell, for different skills. One could argue about the 'same casting over-writes' rule... but that just means having only 1 skill at 160%... still pretty big!)

Cult Lore includes "...myths, beliefs, Heroquests...". I'm actually shocked/surprised that Cult Lore (insert) isn't a required skill for any of the levels of Initiate and beyond. Sure, you have to be passionate about your god/temple, but in theory, you don't actually need to know anything about it! (House Rule would be to include it as mandatory).

Another easy option - as Spirit Lore is a Magical skill, move Cult Lore to Magical as well (which would make sense for the Heroquest knowledge!)

[PhilHibbs]

Yeah it's pretty toasty. But if you want to see a really silly spell, look up Moonburn.

[Kloster]

The way I read it, you specify the skill with the bonus at casting time, and you can change at each casting. As all spells that give a bonus with the number of MP spent, it is powerful, but what really limits logician (and makes you wonder if you have it cast or not) is the impossibility to use any rune or passion while the spell is in effect: 'While the spell is in effect, the caster cannot attempt a roll using any Passion or attempt to augment any skill with one' (RQG p396). This is surely a spell that I will not cast with a long duration.

Even if not written, I would limit it to Knowledge skills already known to the spell recipient (i.e. with a skill value over 00%, either as base value or through experience).

49 minutes ago, PhilHibbs said:

Yeah it's pretty toasty. But if you want to see a really silly spell, look up Moonburn.

Yes, this one, as already shown, is very powerful. It makes you wonder how the lunars didn't manage to take Whitewall earlier.

[PhilHibbs]

40 minutes ago, Kloster said:

Yes, this one (Moonfire), as already shown, is very powerful. It makes you wonder how the lunars didn't manage to take Whitewall earlier.

Dismiss Magic.

[Austin]

3 hours ago, PhilHibbs said:

Yeah it's pretty toasty. But if you want to see a really silly spell, look up Moonburn.

Or Steal Breath! Though Moonfire's definitely more dramatic.

[Kloster]

3 hours ago, Crel said:

Or Steal Breath! Though Moonfire's definitely more dramatic.

As attack, Steal Breath is easily countered, not Moonburn.

[Austin]

11 hours ago, Kloster said:

As attack, Steal Breath is easily countered, not Moonburn.

Oh yeah, Steal Breath's kind of whatever as an attack spell. The more useful part is getting effectively-infinite magic points. Getting 1D6 MP per round for five minutes at base casting cost of 2MP is insane. And you get to hold overflow until the spell ends! Cast it for 10min, get a bewildering amount of MP, then drop some insane spells with your last few minutes of duration--and get to end with full MP, and probably all your MP matrices full as well.

If it wasn't an active spell, you could do even crazier stuff.

[styopa]

Peace, 3 pt Rune Spell

This spell causes all persons not of Rune Master status within a 1-kilometer radius to lay down their weapons and forget all violence and war. For the duration of the spell, they prefer
rather to listen to the wonders of peace and love which the spirits send ringing through their minds.
 

Doesn't say anything about a resist, so essentially 1 rune point can defeat an army (except it's Rune masters).  3 points of extension mean it works for a week. 

Unclear what it does to sorcerers and shamans.

[metcalph]

I think comments that certain sorcery spells are overpowered miss the point IMO.  Sorcerers aren't interested in learning a system of magic that puts them on a level footing with priests and shamans.  Sorcerers aren't interested in playing fair.  If they find or discover a spell that gives better results, they will use that spell.  Why some spells are more effective than others is a better question to ask but one that is slightly beyond the scope of this forum.

[David Scott]

On 4/19/2019 at 6:55 AM, Shiningbrow said:

As per the RAW, surely the sorcery spell is the most OP spell in the game?

Not in my experience. Sorala (one of the pregens) has it and I use them when running demo games. Sorala has a 55% chance of casting the spell and as she doesn't have the summon technique it costs double magic points. She has 17 Free Int (3 spells in memory) and 23 Magic Points. Players always bumped their skill to 100% so that they couldn't fail (although 96-00 is always a fail). So the costing for an unknown knowledge skill to 100% is 2mps (spell cost) + Strength 10 (9mps x2) = 18mps = 20mps already. She can increase the duration to 20 mins (+2 mps) if she wants. In this case all her mps for the adventure are gone. Admittedly if she knew the technique, it would only cost 11mps, still nearly half her total gone. What actually happens is that the player normally uses it to boost their cult lore at 35% for particular part of the adventure. Most add about 5 strength levels to get it over 75% so it cost only 12 mps to cast for 5 mins. The real barrier is the no Passion part. Most don't use it as Passions are an instant bonus in stressful rolls and loosing them for 5 mins is often not worth it.

Your

On 4/19/2019 at 6:55 AM, Shiningbrow said:

"Does anyone know how to sail this ship?"... "yeah, give me a minute...".

is very costly even if you know the technique. Shiphandling is a 0% skill, so 2 + 9mps (Strength 10) is the basic magic point cost. I'd not get on a ship with a 5 minute expert, so extending it for the journey is a must. A day is (level 9) is another 8mps and you'd need a high Free Int to accommodate the spell, at least 19...

The biggest limitation is that it's an Active spell, so any time extension means you can do little.

[Joerg]

28 minutes ago, David Scott said:

A day is (level 9) is another 8mps and you'd need a high Free Int to accommodate the spell, at least 19...

The biggest limitation is that it's an Active spell, so any time extension means you can do little.

Actually, this being an active spell makes abandoning its effects and returning to the use of passions (though losing the ability).

In practice, I would call a skill of 70% a decent chance at success with the knowledge skill bonus a sorcerer necessarily has. As soon as the skill is 0%+Nx10% (N being the intensity of the spell), the skill category bonus ought to apply.

Does the use of Logician allow skill checks for the magically acquired skill for those 0% knowledge skills with a checkbox?

[Shiningbrow]

19 minutes ago, David Scott said:

Not in my experience. Sorala (one of the pregens) has it and I use them when running demo games. Sorala has a 55% chance of casting the spell and as she doesn't have the summon technique it costs double magic points. She has 17 Free Int (3 spells in memory) and 23 Magic Points. Players always bumped their skill to 100% so that they couldn't fail (although 96-00 is always a fail). So the costing for an unknown knowledge skill to 100% is 2mps (spell cost) + Strength 10 (9mps x2) = 18mps = 20mps already. She can increase the duration to 20 mins (+2 mps) if she wants. In this case all her mps for the adventure are gone. Admittedly if she knew the technique, it would only cost 11mps, still nearly half her total gone. What actually happens is that the player normally uses it to boost their cult lore at 35% for particular part of the adventure. Most add about 5 strength levels to get it over 75% so it cost only 12 mps to cast for 5 mins. The real barrier is the no Passion part. Most don't use it as Passions are an instant bonus in stressful rolls and loosing them for 5 mins is often not worth it.

Your

is very costly even if you know the technique. Shiphandling is a 0% skill, so 2 + 9mps (Strength 10) is the basic magic point cost. I'd not get on a ship with a 5 minute expert, so extending it for the journey is a must. A day is (level 9) is another 8mps and you'd need a high Free Int to accommodate the spell, at least 19...

The biggest limitation is that it's an Active spell, so any time extension means you can do little.

You obviously make some good points (possibly even magic points... har har har...). To me, the biggest problem is the 'active' trait.

Personally, I wouldn't go 100% in the skill, because it can be boosted by meditation/ritual, and rarely would it be in a "OMG, I desperately need to get this spell of right now or we're all doomed" situation.

While you lose the ability to Inspire through Passions, skills can still be augmented through other means, including Runes.

RE: MP's to fire it up... there's always Steal Breath.... (second most OP spell???)... one casting at base intensity 1 gets you 1D6 MP per round for 5 minutes...thus, one little 8 MP (at worst) spell gives back 25D6 MPs (chances of not being in a place that has lots of air are... pretty low... (of course, what Orlanth and other Air Rune beings might think of this is another matter)). This leaves the option to drop the spell as needed (see below on re-casting with a full MP pool - unless you're taking from spirits).

I'm sure you wouldn't want to be on a ship with a 5 minute expert... but I'm sure you'd much rather be on that ship with said 5-minute expert (plus extra slots of duration), than be forced to take refuge on a ship with no expert at all for any length of time (but, perhaps your Glorantha varies...).

As for the Active status... very annoying, and thus long durations won't be a good idea... but those with a high INT should be rolling around 60% to keep concentrating (higher if they've got Enhance INT on).

If Solara was a Philosopher (as I imagine most sorcerers will start out), then she'd have 2 Runes and 2 Techniques... (and 6 spells!)

(I'd also strongly consider expending the POW to put this spell into a matrix for the boosts)

 

The question(s) remains then - if this isn't the most OP spell in the game, firstly are there any? And, if so, which?

[David Scott]

10 minutes ago, Shiningbrow said:

Personally, I wouldn't go 100% in the skill, because it can be boosted by meditation/ritual

You can boost the Knowledge skill with ritual, but you could increase her chance of casting Logician. Likewise you can't use meditation

14 minutes ago, Shiningbrow said:

rarely would it be in a "OMG, I desperately need to get this spell of right now or we're all doomed" situation.

Demo games last for an hour or two so this is actually a common situation.

16 minutes ago, Shiningbrow said:

If Solara was a Philosopher (as I imagine most sorcerers will start out), then she'd have 2 Runes and 2 Techniques... (and 6 spells!)

See page 94 or the updated version in the GM Screen Pack. She's a LM scribe so only three sorcery spells, but has all common Rune spells, plus Analyze Magic, Clairvoyance, and Knowledge.

[David Scott]

27 minutes ago, Joerg said:

In practice, I would call a skill of 70% a decent chance at success

in practice players have added between 30 & 60%.

27 minutes ago, Joerg said:

As soon as the skill is 0%+Nx10% (N being the intensity of the spell), the skill category bonus ought to apply.

I didn't allow it if it was a 0% skill as it's entirely a magical effect.

29 minutes ago, Joerg said:

Does the use of Logician allow skill checks for the magically acquired skill for those 0% knowledge skills with a checkbox?

Yes if you succeed in the knowledge roll, then at the end of the spell you rub the check out.

[Shiningbrow]

28 minutes ago, David Scott said:

You can boost the Knowledge skill with ritual, but you could increase her chance of casting Logician. Likewise you can't use meditation

Sorry, I meant the spell casting could be augmented by ritual practices - not the knowledge skill itself.

 

29 minutes ago, David Scott said:

Demo games last for an hour or two so this is actually a common situation.

For this spell? (which is what I'm referring to). How often was this spell being used in that sort of situation (Need to do it now, not in 5 minutes)?

29 minutes ago, David Scott said:

See page 94 or the updated version in the GM Screen Pack. She's a LM scribe so only three sorcery spells, but has all common Rune spells, plus Analyze Magic, Clairvoyance, and Knowledge.

I know she is... but I'm saying most players choosing to go sorcerer wouldn't choose scribe. (if they're just using sorcery, then perhaps).

 

29 minutes ago, David Scott said:

Yes if you succeed in the knowledge roll, then at the end of the spell you rub the check out.

Would you inform them of this beforehand? Or just be evil and wait for it to happen?

[styopa]

9 hours ago, metcalph said:

I think comments that certain sorcery spells are overpowered miss the point IMO.  Sorcerers aren't interested in learning a system of magic that puts them on a level footing with priests and shamans.  Sorcerers aren't interested in playing fair.  If they find or discover a spell that gives better results, they will use that spell.  Why some spells are more effective than others is a better question to ask but one that is slightly beyond the scope of this forum.

Meh, I agree with you in objectivist principle, but while RQ makes an effort at simulationism, it is still a GAME (and I'd argue that RQG deliberately tries to retreat from 3's simulationism toward the playable-game end of the spectrum) in which balance, or at least rational power-costing needs to make some sort of sense.

To say nothing of the fact that it's an entirely fictional world; to have any semblance of credibility supporting the fictional-extant of various powers, they HAVE to have some balance.  If a divine or spirit magician can cause 1.5 points of damage at 25m for 1mp, and (all else being equal) sorcerers can do 5 points of damage at 100m for the same 1mp, why wouldn't sorcery have trounced the world?

(The only place where I can see breaking this deliberately is Lunar magic.  The above posits a sort of static equilibrium, and the Lunars are BOTH 'fresh' and 'kicking ass' suggesting that their stuff is intrinsically more powerful...now there may be larger, contextual, meta-limits in the background, but I believe there's a strong argument for giving Lunars better magical kit PARTICULARLY if they're intended generally to be dramatic foils.)

[PhilHibbs]

33 minutes ago, styopa said:

...to have any semblance of credibility supporting the fictional-extant of various powers, they HAVE to have some balance.  If a divine or spirit magician can cause 1.5 points of damage at 25m for 1mp, and (all else being equal) sorcerers can do 5 points of damage at 100m for the same 1mp, why wouldn't sorcery have trounced the world?

The world has many more "balancing" factors than just how a few spells operate. And, from time to time, some cultures HAVE trounced the world. The actions of a few Heortling heroes recently wiped out most of the magical and mundane Lunar forces in Sartar, where is the balance in that? I love RuneQuest and Glorantha largely for the lack of balance. It's bedlam out there, and it's exhilarating.

[Kloster]

3 hours ago, Joerg said:

Does the use of Logician allow skill checks for the magically acquired skill for those 0% knowledge skills with a checkbox?

Yes, there's nothing that forbids.

[PhilHibbs]

4 hours ago, Joerg said:

Does the use of Logician allow skill checks for the magically acquired skill for those 0% knowledge skills with a checkbox?

I wouldn't allow ticks for anything rolled under a Logician bonus.

[Shiningbrow]

On 4/20/2019 at 11:04 PM, styopa said:

To say nothing of the fact that it's an entirely fictional world; to have any semblance of credibility supporting the fictional-extant of various powers, they HAVE to have some balance.  If a divine or spirit magician can cause 1.5 points of damage at 25m for 1mp, and (all else being equal) sorcerers can do 5 points of damage at 100m for the same 1mp, why wouldn't sorcery have trounced the world?

Because it takes good (better than average) stats and years of practice to be proficient enough to be able to cast that sorcery spell reliably enough, versus hours or days to cast the 1.5 damage spirit magic. Also, the Divine magician can get a LOT more bang for buck in a pretty short period of time.

Getting even 1 sorcery to do the 5 points damage at 100m takes way longer than the 100 local clanspeople to learn the 1.5 point damage... so, who's more likely to "trounce the world"?

(RAW, Disruption would normally take 1 week to learn to do 1D3 at 25m for 1MP, at an average of 55% chance. Financial cost might be 50L. Quite a few potential teachers around - priests, God Talkers, Runelords, members of associated cults, the occasional shaman.  OTOH, to get off a sorcery spell effectively, minimum of 1 Rune and 1 technique need to be learned (max 1 per season), then the spell needs to be taught and trained/practiced or cast effectively to grant experience rolls (for a PC, 1/season per 1D6-1 or less). Average stats for a sorcerer (low) would be INT 13, POW maybe 13, CHA 13 (not a great sorcerer, so going higher would make sense - but the magic modifier is unlikely to be 15%... to get to 55% is going to take years! And, not a lot of teachers around...)

[styopa]

27 minutes ago, Shiningbrow said:

Getting even 1 sorcery to do the 5 points damage at 100m takes way longer than the 100 local clanspeople to learn the 1.5 point damage...

Wasn't meant to be a SPECIFIC example, just an example of why sorcery and spirit magic and divine magic and dragon magic and whatever magic DO need to have some sort of meta balance to result in a world where none of them have essentially 'taken over'.

[Shiningbrow]

11 hours ago, styopa said:

Wasn't meant to be a SPECIFIC example, just an example of why sorcery and spirit magic and divine magic and dragon magic and whatever magic DO need to have some sort of meta balance to result in a world where none of them have essentially 'taken over'.

But... Rune and Spirit magic have won that battle (for now!) And, to an extent, Dragon magic (practised by very few, in their own little group). And Sorcery has been shunted to its own little part of the world.

By far and away, the most common magic across the world is Rune and Spirit magic. Sorcery has been relegated to the fringes, and while feared, isn't a serious threat to the populations as a whole. The semblance of 'balance' is only given because a) it's usually too far away for most to really care about, and b) most sorcerers haven't done anything to warrant a pogrom.

When the sorcerers did decide to get more powerful (and, in this sense, that didn't mean controlling the rest of the world, but easily could have), it took divine means to rein them in (and, obviously, they did this to themselves by imposing their will upon the divine). If they were more conquest-oriented (and didn't have the EWF to contend with - again, not focussed on the Rune/Spirit magic), the MSE would have completely dominated the world because of their magic.

Glorantha is a dynamic world... and those 'balances' change... often daily!

RGQ puts us in a time where it looks balanced (maybe), and in one small part of the lands (ie, the Spirit & Rune parts). Just like we're also in the part which is mostly dominated by lawful cults, not overrun by Chaos... but that's elsewhere...

 

The world isn't fair. There isn't balance.

 

(personally, I loathe the need for 'balance' in games like D&D... far too linear and restricted... and thus, uninteresting!)

[David Scott]

4 hours ago, Shiningbrow said:

But... Rune and Spirit magic have won that battle (for now!) And, to an extent, Dragon magic (practised by very few, in their own little group). And Sorcery has been shunted to its own little part of the world.

Magic doesn't equal culture. For example the influence of the main storm mountains means that Storm worship will always arise within their influence, even if overcome by a sorcerous culture. 

I'd have a look at the Guide's population figures, the west is hardly a little part of the World.