Basic Strike rank questions

[klecser]

1. Melee strike rank is always DEX SR+SIZ SR+Wpn SR ? (assume readied)

2. Missile weapons are DEX SR ?  (assume readied)

3. Spell is DEX SR + 1 per MP beyond the first? (assume readied)

4. SR appears to be pre-calculated for Pre-Gens/Scenario Adversary Stat Blocks? But assume a readied weapon?

 

[Kloster]

15 minutes ago, klecser said:

1. Melee strike rank is always DEX SR+SIZ SR+Wpn SR ? (assume readied)

2. Missile weapons are DEX SR ?  (assume readied)

3. Spell is DEX SR + 1 per MP beyond the first? (assume readied)

4. SR appears to be pre-calculated for Pre-Gens/Scenario Adversary Stat Blocks? But assume a readied weapon?

 

As far as I see (there can be mistakes), yes to all your questions.

[Bill the barbarian]

Poor editing led me to many mistakes in the last post can be deleted. if the management should see this please make it go poof. Correction follows.

5 hours ago,  klecser said: 

1. Melee strike rank is always DEX SR+SIZ SR+Wpn SR ? (assume readied)

 

When moving, number of MOVs replace SIZ strike rank modifier (SRM) in figuring weapon SR pages 193 and 194 RQ RiG

 

   5 hours ago,  klecser said: 

 2. Missile weapons are DEX SR ?  (assume readied) 

 

Simply speaking correct. See page 211-214 for full tale but mostly 211 for simple SR. There is a sentence on firing multiple times worth a look 

S/MR: As many missiles as can be fired as strike rank permits, assuming 5 strike ranks to reload.

 

   5 hours ago,  klecser said: 

 3. Spell is DEX SR + 1 per MP beyond the first? (assume readied)

 

Correct for Spirit magic ( pages 194 RQ RiG) an near correct for Rune Magic (same page and on Page 214 and 215 of RQ RiG).

 All (? Thats what it says...) Rune Magic with no or one point of magic points added is cast on SR 1. This is on Page 214 and 215  of RQ RiG . 

forget adding " add one SR per point of spell added after the first point to SR 1 I do not see it adding DEX in anywhere so it could be assumed you add MP cost above 1  to SR 1."

  

   5 hours ago,  klecser said: 

 4. SR appears to be pre-calculated for Pre-Gens/Scenario Adversary Stat Blocks? But assume a readied weapon?

 

Have not checked out the pre gens since mistakes were found I refer you to PhilHibbs who seems to be in the know.

Note I have seen surprise preparation movement (noted above) and picking up and placing down (not dropping) all mentioned as modifiers and the number mentioned is a universal and easy to remember though very inaccurate 5. I am sure there will be more added in the future.

Cheers

 

 

[PhilHibbs]

7 hours ago, Bill the barbarian said:

Have not checked out the pre gens since mistakes were found I refer you to PhilHibbs who seems to be in the know.

I think the weapon stat blocks are all correct, although I was mainly focusing on skills and runes. The only mistake I found in weapons was the missing half damage bonus for thrown javelin. That is also missing in my spreadsheet, must fix that.

Edited May 27, 2019 by PhilHibbs

[klecser]

10 hours ago, Bill the barbarian said:

 

5 hours ago,  klecser said: 

1. Melee strike rank is always DEX SR+SIZ SR+Wpn SR ? (assume readied)

 

When moving, number of MOVs replace SIZ strike rank modifier (SRM) in figuring weapon SR pages 193 and 194 RQ RiG

 

 

 

Thanks, as always, for your support Bill! I'm struggling to find the book text on those two pages that corroborates this statement and it may be that I'm just missing your point.

194: "..Movement: Any time two fighters meet in melee,
no matter how long they’ve traveled to get to
that meeting, strike rank should be figured out
normally for them [emphasis mine]. However, the gamemaster
should consider the time taken to get from point
A to point B when an adventurer joins an ongoing
melee or charges across a distance at a foe using a
spell or missile against them."

An example that illustrates my confusion:

I'm in melee with someone and I have SIZ SR 3 and DEX SR 3: My tentative SR is 6 (until weapon added).

I move 3 meters to engage an opponent. My tentative SR is (1 for the move + DEX SR 3) = 4? (until weapon added).

"Number of MOVs REPLACES SIZ SR" This doesn't compute. Why does moving nullify my SIZ?

Shouldn't it be: SIZ 3 + DEX 3 + MOV 1 = 7? (until weapon added)

Not trying to be difficult. I need to GM this in less than a week! 😜

Edited May 27, 2019 by klecser

[jajagappa]

49 minutes ago, klecser said:

Shouldn't it be: SIZ 3 + DEX 3 + MOV 1 = 7? (until weapon added)

Yes.

The movement may be combined with readying a weapon (5 SR's), but it does not replace/remove the SIZ SR.

Rather than breaking down all the components, it's easier to just think of your weapon SR + whatever time you need to either move or prepare the weapon. (Where weapon SR = SIZ SR + DEX SR + weapon SR).

[klecser]

2 hours ago, jajagappa said:

 

The movement may be combined with readying a weapon (5 SR's), but it does not replace/remove the SIZ SR.

I see, and that makes sense. You draw your sword as you walk 12 meters. Rather than paying 4 MOV + 5 Ready = 9, you just pay 5 because you are doing those two things simultaneously, correct?

[Bill the barbarian]

3 hours ago, klecser said:

.Movement: Any time two fighters meet in melee,
no matter how long they’ve traveled to get to
that meeting,

This might be what is causing the confusion. This assumes that both parties are moving, ergo, neither are in melee. Again, neither is engaged (c'mon wags ya know ya want to. insert bad joke here... children {sigh}). When one foe is standing pat he uses DEX SRM (strike rank modifier) + SIZ SRM + Weapon SRM = Strike Rank as per normal melee versus our charging foe. His SIZ has no effect on his SR so DEX SRM + MOV SRM* + Weapon SRM = SR

* can only move half MOV (4 MOV for humans) and engage... 1 MOV unit is 3m and equals one SR this is a muddle and I wish I could find all the pertaining rules easily alas... Here goes down the rabbit hole to

page 191

2. Movement of Non-Engaged Characters
Any adventurer or monster actively taking part in melee combat, whether attacking or defending, is engaged in melee combat. All characters and monsters not directly engaged in melee combat may move up to their total movement rate (MOV).

Those moving no more than half of their usual movement allowance may also participate in melee or perform other feats such as throwing a spell. Every 3 meters of movement adds 1 to the mover’s strike rank.

As noted prior, strike ranks are explained fully below.

Page 194

The Minor Criteria

Movement: Any time two fighters meet in melee, no matter how long they’ve traveled to get to that meeting, strike rank should be figured out normally for them. However, the gamemaster should consider the time taken to get from point A to point B when an adventurer joins an ongoing melee or charges across a distance at a foe using a spell or missile against them. 

Page 195

Movement

An unencumbered adventurer not engaged in melee combat may move to their species movement rate in a melee round. A human can move 8 movement units in a melee round, or 24 meters.

For each unit (3 meters) of movement an unengaged adventurer makes during the melee round, add +1 to their strike rank if they wish to take any action.

An adventurer engaged in melee cannot move until disengaged.

A mount or chariot carrying an adventurer engaged in melee can move at its normal movement rate unless the mount itself directly engages in combat (such as a war horse making a Kick attack or a bison making a Butt attack).

Put em all together take two aspirin and does that help at all, no...?

[Bill the barbarian]

Hmm reading this again I do not find MOV replacing SIZ. In RQ 3 it did. Am I bringing my memories forward and placing them where they do not belong? Any experts of RQ 3 and RQ RiG that can tell me?

[EpicureanDM]

@Bill the barbarian has added some important details to the basic answers, except for the MOV/SIZ stuff.

I wrote this guide to RQG's Strike Rank system. It borrows from RQ3, so it's not RAW. The RQ3 additions are minimal and mostly related to quality of life. They don't include the RQ3 MOV/SIZ stuff. You might find it helpful, @klecser.

Link: https://www.dropbox.com/s/sqmq88ratu5s6go/Newcomer's Guide to Runequest's Strike Rank Combat v0.5.pdf?dl=0

 

[Bill the barbarian]

30 minutes ago, EpicureanDM said:

@Bill the barbarian has added some important details to the basic answers, except for the MOV/SIZ stuff.

 

Very true! Bill the barbarian may well have screwed up. Oops.

I have found the rule in RQ 3 that I was quoting...

Attacking on the Run Page Page 59 of the Player's Book in AH RQ 3 Box Set 

It says the same as I did, and also limits you to an attack or dodge or parry, only one and move, SIZ neither penalizes or benefits. but oddly enough movement is not mentioned here. Of course it is mentioned as mod earlier with surprise and preparation, etc... as it is in RQ RiG.

So, sharp eyed people, did SIZ not effecting the final SR when moving, like in RQ 3, not make it into modern RuneQuest in any of the places it might hide in the half dozen or so pages mentioning  strike ranks?

If not sorry klecser, seems I might have boned it up. We will see.

Edited May 27, 2019 by Bill the barbarian

[g33k]

SIZ should still affect SR, even when MOV is involved.

SR is largely an order-of-action, so MOV before an attack does indeed delay the SR.

HOWEVER... when the MOV'ing parties (either/both) finally come to blows, the larger person will still have a bit of reach, still have a SR advantage; regardless of which (or both) were MOVing.

MOV cannot simply /replace/ the factor of SIZ (and weapon reach); we need to figure relative SRs of our newly-engaged combatants.

I find the /intent/ of the rule to be clear on this -- I'm confident in my reading -- but the RAW to not make my understanding explicitly clear and unamiguously-correct-by-RAW.

[SDLeary]

44 minutes ago, Bill the barbarian said:

Very true! Bill the barbarian may well have screwed up. Oops.

I have found the rule in RQ 3 that I was quoting...

Attacking on the Run Page Page 59 of the Player's Book in AH RQ 3 Box Set 

It says the same as I did, and also limits you to an attack or dodge or parry, only one and move, SIZ neither penalizes or benefits. but oddly enough movement is not mentioned here. Of course it is mentioned as mod earlier with surprise and preparation, etc... as it is in RQ RiG.

So, sharp eyed people, did SIZ not effecting the final SR when moving, like in RQ 3, not make it into modern RuneQuest in any of the places it might hide in the half dozen or so pages mentioning  strike ranks?

If not sorry klecser, seems I might have boned it up. We will see.

I'm not sure this is the case, as in the Chaosium games I played in, and Sandy's campaign, SIZ was always factored in, as it has been for every other game I've played in... I assume due to the fact that it is supposed to somewhat represent reach. I suppose this could have been an in-group artifact of playing so much RQ2, but they were playlets sessions for RQ3.

SDLeary

Edited May 27, 2019 by SDLeary

[jajagappa]

57 minutes ago, Bill the barbarian said:

So, sharp eyed people, did SIZ not effecting the final SR when moving, like in RQ 3, not make it into modern RuneQuest in any of the places it might hide in the half dozen or so pages mentioning  strike ranks?

I don't ever recall SIZ having any impact on movement, just in the calculation of the weapon SR (and I ran RQ3 10 years).  If there was something there, I never noticed it.

3 hours ago, klecser said:

I see, and that makes sense. You draw your sword as you walk 12 meters. Rather than paying 4 MOV + 5 Ready = 9, you just pay 5 because you are doing those two things simultaneously, correct?

Correct.

[EpicureanDM]

23 minutes ago, g33k said:

SIZ should still affect SR, even when MOV is involved.

SR is largely an order-of-action, so MOV before an attack does indeed delay the SR.

HOWEVER... when the MOV'ing parties (either/both) finally come to blows, the larger person will still have a bit of reach, still have a SR advantage; regardless of which (or both) were MOVing.

MOV cannot simply /replace/ the factor of SIZ (and weapon reach); we need to figure relative SRs of our newly-engaged combatants.

I find the /intent/ of the rule to be clear on this -- I'm confident in my reading -- but the RAW to not make my understanding explicitly clear and unamiguously-correct-by-RAW.

If I read this correctly (the fault is mine if I'm not), then I don't think I factor SIZ into things when someone's Statement of Intent also contains movement. SIZ is bundled into a character's overall melee Strike Rank (DEX SR + SIZ SR + Weapon SR). It's accounted for there. To recalculate it or adjust for it again once combatants become Engaged is probably more trouble than it's worth. 

 

7 hours ago, klecser said:

An example that illustrates my confusion:

I'm in melee with someone and I have SIZ SR 3 and DEX SR 3: My tentative SR is 6 (until weapon added).

I move 3 meters to engage an opponent. My tentative SR is (1 for the move + DEX SR 3) = 4? (until weapon added).

"Number of MOVs REPLACES SIZ SR" This doesn't compute. Why does moving nullify my SIZ?

Shouldn't it be: SIZ 3 + DEX 3 + MOV 1 = 7? (until weapon added)

Not trying to be difficult. I need to GM this in less than a week! 😜

Your example is unintentionally awkward because you're starting in melee, i.e. you're Engaged in RQG terms. You can't move 3 meters if you're Engaged in RQG without triggering a 5e-style Attack of Opportunity that you can't parry or dodge. That's pretty nasty.

Assuming you aren't Engaged, your tentative SR would be 7 (1SR to move 3m + DEX SR 3 + SIZ SR 3) before your weapon SR is added. RQG allows you to draw a weapon as part of that movement, so you wouldn't trigger what I call "The Universal 5 SR Penalty." 

I deal with most of your questions in the document I linked to above.

[Bill the barbarian]

Kay-o,let me check...

Special Melee Tactics is the sections heading on page 56 Moving and Melee is the next section break on page 59. The only subsection under Moving and Melee  found on page 59 as well is

Attacking on the Run

A moving adventurer may perform one of the three combat actions—attack, parry or Dodge—while moving if that is all he does for the melee round. He cannot perform more than one of the three alternative. He also  must slow down by 1 meter per strike rank (a human would be able to move only 2 meters per strike rank, for instance)... snip of irrelevant...

If the moving adventurer wants to attack he must do so on or after his DEX strike rank plus the strike rank for the weapon, Because he is moving the benefits and restrictions of SIZ do not apply.

Emphasis mine

[drablak]

40 minutes ago, g33k said:

HOWEVER... when the MOV'ing parties (either/both) finally come to blows, the larger person will still have a bit of reach, still have a SR advantage; regardless of which (or both) were MOVing.

Is this (quoted above) a result of that (quoted below), and apply only in cases where both start unengaged?

4 hours ago, Bill the barbarian said:

Movement: Any time two fighters meet in melee, no matter how long they’ve traveled to get to that meeting, strike rank should be figured out normally for them.

 

Edited May 27, 2019 by drablak

[SDLeary]

2 minutes ago, Bill the barbarian said:

Kay-o,let me check...

Special Melee Tactics is the sections heading on page 56 Moving and Melee is the next section break on page 59. The only subsection under Moving and Melee  found on page 59 as well is

Attacking on the Run

A moving adventurer may perform one of the three combat actions—attack, parry or Dodge—while moving if that is all he does for the melee round. He cannot perform more than one of the three alternative. He also  must slow down by 1 meter per strike rank (a human would be able to move only 2 meters per strike rank, for instance)... snip of irrelevant...

If the moving adventurer wants to attack he must do so on or after his DEX strike rank plus the strike rank for the weapon, Because he is moving the benefits and restrictions of SIZ do not apply.

Emphasis mine

Then indeed it must have been an artifact of a pre-published version of the rules, or of playing so much RQ2. Both Steve and Sandy had us working things wrong!! LOL

SDLeary

[Bill the barbarian]

2 minutes ago, Bill the barbarian said:

Kay-o,let me check...

 Special Melee Tactics is the sections heading on page 56 Moving and Melee is the next section break on page 59. The only subsection under Moving and Melee  found on page 59 as well is

this again is RQ 3 and the book is the player's book of AH RQ 3 box set. My question is did SIZ rule cross over to RQ RiG?

cheers

[Bill the barbarian]

1 minute ago, SDLeary said:

Then indeed it must have been an artifact of a pre-published version of the rules, or of playing so much RQ2. Both Steve and Sandy had us working things wrong!! LOL

 

Hey it happens, does not make it less funny that the great old ones boned it but...

[Bill the barbarian]

Just now, Bill the barbarian said:

Hey it happens, does not make it less funny that the great old ones boned it but...

I played RQ three better than they... (fades to nothing...)

shuts up... looks up for cloud cover and lighting... walks away slowly at first than quickens pace glancing at the sky with a worried expression every now again.. Finally breaks into a run whilst screaming "I didn't mean it............."

[g33k]

48 minutes ago, drablak said:

Is this (quoted above) a result of that (quoted below), and apply only in cases where both start unengaged?

Sort of ...  It's a bit of a corner-case, but worth noting that "starting unengaged" is... ambiguous.

One (or even both) COULD have begun the round Engaged (to other combatants), gone through the pricess of disengage-and-move, and then ended up Engaged in their mutual new... Engagement.

But yes, that's the passage I was basing my call upon (plus... y'know... common sense?  A big guy just has reach, hard to slip up to him without giving him a shot at you; doesn't matter if the two of you are squared-off, or one or t'OTHER is taking a run-up).  Same for longer weapons, and quicker reflexes.

I figure Dex+MOV to the SR of the Engagement -- they can't come to blows until they've come together, eh? -- then whoever has better DEX+SIZ+Weapon SR goes 1st.

Edited May 27, 2019 by g33k
Clarity, example

[klecser]

Bill, we have confirmed that you are not crazy!

Thanks @EpicureanDM. I will print that guide to have handy, but will avoid showing it to my players if at all possible, lest they run for the hills.  

I think I have the basics. I'm still a bit confused about "Engaged," but I'll do some reading on that. I mean, I get the general concept and comparison to AOO, but not sure I understand yet when it applies in this game. I'm a bit worried about introducing my players to too much too quickly.

 

[Bill the barbarian]

1 hour ago, g33k said:

I find the /intent/ of the rule to be clear on this -- I'm confident in my reading -- but the RAW to not make my understanding explicitly clear and unamiguously-correct-by-RAW.

Unless some one can find a smoking gun presenting a similarity twixt the RQ 3 and RQ RiG,  the rules as written support your logical interpretation. It would explain why the rule would be dropped if it has.

1 minute ago, klecser said:

Bill, we have confirmed that you are not crazy!

 

As I am demonstrating above, I am afraid that jury is still out...

[EpicureanDM]

6 minutes ago, klecser said:

Thanks @EpicureanDM. I will print that guide to have handy, but will avoid showing it to my players if at all possible, lest they run for the hills.  

I think I have the basics. I'm still a bit confused about "Engaged," but I'll do some reading on that. I mean, I get the general concept and comparison to AOO, but not sure I understand yet when it applies in this game. I'm a bit worried about introducing my players to too much too quickly.

 

I shared it with my players, but they also shied away from doing their homework.

"Engaged" might seem more tricky than it is, but what's obvious to some might not be for others. I used the old wargaming "base to base" concept with my players, meaning that if they could imagine the base of their character's miniature touching the base of another, they're "base to base" and Engaged in RQG terms. We don't use minis when we play RQG, but they could visualize it.

Another way to think about it is if one combatant tried to make a melee attack against another (regardless of success), they are Engaged. There's a distinction here between being close enough to engage in a melee attack and actually trying to make one. There could be some edge cases where one combatant is within arm's reach of another and not Engaged. My rule of thumb is that once one combatant tries to murder another with a melee weapon, that's when both become Engaged. It represents a narrowing of the combatants' worlds and options to being in a fight for their life with someone who's in their face.