davecake

There are three Lanbril gangs in Pavis - the two largest (the Hole Lords and Harli's men) seem to be made up of adult gang members (only the third largest, Knobbys Nippers, seem to be youths. The street gangs are different, but more bored youths not yet established in their own lives with a strong sense of territorialism, rather than career criminals. Most gangs are too small. They are organisations, not communities. To the extent that they do, this is more like a spirit cult than a wyter (and, of course, this is exactly what Black Fang is). Orlanth the Thief is a pretty well established tradition. Works for both small groups of Orlanthi exiled from their clan lands for some reason, and individuals. Dark Walk is of course a fantastic spell for a thief, but they also have plenty of spells that will help them get into places they shouldn't, and make getaways when necessary. An ancestor worship clan makes a pretty good magic for a criminal gang related by blood. Discorporation is quite handy for casing a target, and ancestors can have a lot of knowledge of thief skills and special spells to pass on, and there is a strong sense of loyalty. Shamans can add a range of spirit cults for other magical purposes.

Peter, you had an entirely different theory about Iffinbix and the Agipith root in 1997! I like the psychedelic Mee Vorala connection myself! Apparently in the same era, I thought Iffinbix was the city magician 'cult', and that they officially died out (but actually became corrupted by vampirism, and are the source of the vampires in Blind Kings Hill, with knowledge stolen from Delecti, and connected to the vampires in Dyskund Caverns), but these days I would (in light of Ian Thompsons excellent Masks of Pavis material) associate that whole plotline with Potonis. Celestial Empire sorcery connected to a weird misguided mysticism and Kralorelan alchemy sounds a fruitful avenue of exploration.

In the Guide, it says about Androgeus and the coincidence of Goldtooth and Goldentooth seems suggestive, and of course Jaldon Goldentooth is otherwise weird and has unknown origins. The Yellow Bear is presumed to be the same Yellow Bear that lives in the Yellow Bear Hills in Fronela, a petty god from the First Age, which has no connection, but Androgeus has lived since long before the dawn and wandered all over Glorantha. I have no idea who the other three are. I also have no idea why Androgeus would be linked to Sheng Seleris.

Yes. There are still differences, but if you try to treat one cult as the other, such as by trying to regain Rune Points in the 'wrong' temple, you will likely succeed, because it is the same entity. But then, the same is true of many pairs, or more, deities that are treated as different by their worshippers (Dendara/Ernalda, Veskarthan/Lodril/Balumbasta, etc). There are still difference in cultural context, 'mythic history', religious context. An example of the cultural context is the Yelmalio cult, being closer to Dara Happa, is, among other things, a bit more patriarchal, a bit less connected to the Heortling clan structure and more connected to a cult hierarchy, and a bit more about collective action (and in particular, fighting as a phalanx). The Elmal cult is a bit more integrated to a standard Heortling clan structure, fits into (adapted) clan hierarchy, and a bit more about individual heroism, and fighting mounted. Halamao is a bit more into... photosynthesis? Also being an elf, not being human, and defending forests, etc. This reflects within the rules mostly in the societies they form, and the skills they teach. An example of the 'mythic history' is that their mythology does differ a litte, but also different heroes and sects have shown different ways their god can be approached, and related to other powers. Elmal rejects Yelm and accepts the friendship of Orlanth, and as a result major heroquests play out a bit differently. This manifests within the rules mostly in *minor* changes to the core cult spells etc. I think these are pretty minor - IMG Elmal gets better magic as an individual initiate, because they were aided by Orlanth at the Hill of Gold etc and so didn't lose as much power to Zorak Zoran - which mostly means they still have access to Fire Arrow and Fire Blade and Ignite spirit magic (and use them enthusiastically). But in doing so, they lost the active connection to Yelm, so when it gets to the higher levels of the cult, their connection to Fire/Yelm is weaker - they have no access to Sunspear. Also, the Elmal version of the Hill of Gold HeroQuest might get them better Fire magic and/or let them defeat Inora or fight of ZZ, but at the expense of the physical immortality that Yelmalio gets, which is frankly a pretty poor deal (mind you, possibly still better than Antirius, who personally gets badly injured (but saves the Emperor from his own folly)). What exactly this means in Runic terms, is a mystery argument that really doesn't matter much - I think their access to eg Fire elementals is much the same. On the other hand, the Beren the Rider tradition has a lot to do with the history of Elmal, and has lead to a lasting link with the Redalda cult, which gives Elmal better access to horse magic. Which ties in well with their cultural role within the Orlanthi of specialising in horse raising and mounted combat. Also, IMG, the Gifts and Geases are a lingering remnant of the various mystic traditions that were a core part of the Yelmalio tradition in the first and second Age, and the Elmal cult is less excited about them. But there is enough cultural cross over that if you want your Elmal guy to have them, no problem. The religious context is really the cultural context in religious terms - in game terms, which associated cults are available. Some things are relatively constant. Almost every Little Sun variant acknowledges the connection to Ernalda. Many acknowledge Aldrya, but only a few have an active connection to elven communities - except elf Halamao cultists, for whom this is the most important associated cult by far, and active cross membership is common. Most have some acknowedgement of the Vrimak/Bird connection, but only in First Blessed is there an active Vrimak cult that enables cross membership, and more exotic bird connections such as maybr ridable hawks or mounted avilry. And of course Elmal has the horse connections. And Yelmalio has the Yelm connections - which are far more significant in areas were the Yelm cult is common. There are always tricks and subtlties - Yu-Kargzant and Yelm may be mythically the same, but that doesn't mean they religiously have the same relationship to Yelmalio. The relationship with Yelm the Father in Dara Happa, and Yelm as worshipped by the female elves

The Doraddi kings are unusual in Doraddi society, because while Doraddi in general are semi-nomadic, the kings are associated with a specific geographical area, usually a specific river valley or oasis. They get voted in or out (in Jolar and Kothar anyway) but (from GtG pg 22) They aren't specifically war leaders - most of the time, they are more or less the opposite, as they must please the women, who mostly shun warlike cults and mostly (as members of the Faranar or Aleshmara traditions) are far more interested in wealth and trade (and in Doraddi society, war is usually a fairly poor way to generate wealth - the Kresh may, however, have changed that). Of course, they may also coordinate responses to other threats, such as bandits and monsters and angry fiwan or non-humans, so the warriors usually have jobs to do, but a true (as opposed to symbolic or ritual) war is unusual. Note that besides being voted out of office by the women, kings also have to consider that many of the inhabitants of their land are semi-nomadic. If there is a shortage of food, or if a nearby valley is obviously doing much better, entire households will just up and leave. War will, of course, attract some people, but it also puts of others - and the people it attracts, mostly young unmarried Vangono men of the warrior societies, are generally considered trouble makers. I think the King of the Arbennan, a sort of king of kings/overking, is usually a position of limited practical importance, consulted to organise the settling of disputes between lesser chiefs and kings. Only in unusual times of war do they become really important in day to day matters.

Lanbril gets a little rune magic, but a lot of unusual skills and some minor magic. They not only teach alchemy (which is unusual), they have different specialties from other cults (especially poison, but also smoke bombs, etc). They also know how to create unusual devices. They may be able to teach some unusual, not widely available spirit magic. And they should definitely be able to use their Illusion and Disorder runes to augment their thiefy skills. They are not as cosmically significant as Eurmal, but they instead have a wide range of subtler and directly useful powers, and are far more able to conceal their nature than Eurmal (who usually ends up outcast or bonded quickly). It is really less about getting good magic, and more about being part of a useful secret fraternity, And then, there is a possible connection between Lanbril and Eurmal, which for solo thieves might be more than they care to admit. I wouldn't be surprised if a few Lanbril thieves have picked up the Lie spell from Eurmal.

I think it very much depends on the unit, some magicians will be complex and covert similar to what you suggest, some will be all crash and thunder. Being attacked by the Thunderbird is going to be unsubtle, being attacked by the Snakepipe Dancers might be quite confusing and hallucinator. But we do know the 'wyter' or oversoul is an important part of the process for the Lunars and the SMU. So there will be a central spirit of significant power, usually not subtle, rather than just a bunch of magicians acting together.

Yet 15m tall giants exist, so these things are obviously not an issue for a mere 4 m tall giant. Let us not bring science words like oxygenation into it. That much is clearly true though. Everyone knows the smart way to deal with (at least a moderately sized) giant is barrages of missiles from a distance until you get a few criticals. (the brave way is a lance charge, but you better not miss or role low damage dice).

Yes. Deploying the Bat to Prax becomes extremely problematic if all the nomads simply do the sane thing and run far away. There are only so many oasis folk.

If you believe in the High Shamanic Ideal, then yeah, sorcerers are like less than half a magician. The sorcerers disagree. I wasn't trying to make a general statement, rather one about Doraddi attitude. Well, sure, but if you only talk about what they do not why, you'll miss some important stuff. After all, almost everyone comments on how the Doraddi could do things very differently, and choose not to. Well, the rules status and the social status get a bit mixed up. They have people who are part time magicians who also take an active party in daily life, whatever you want to call them. Sure. If it makes you feel better, call them Spirit Talkers - but they get Rune magic from Great Spirits (that in RQG aren't distinguished from Gods), rather than being apprentice shaman types. They do get plenty of spirit magic, though, as you'd expect with a lot of shamans around, including a few weird things that you only get if you travel to special places. I don't think they have much in the way of Rune Lords as the Genertelans do, though - a Pamalt Chieftain is more like a priest than a Rune Lord, they get their extra magic from their social status rather than the other way around. They lead a lot of the big dances and other adorations, very social things, rather than spent time messing around with sacrifices - they deal with the communal relationship, rather than the individual relationship with the god. I think the sort of 'define your identity by how much you are like your god' thing that Rune Lords do is very much not a thing that the Doraddi think is healthy. So you have Chieftains who learn from Pamalt, craftsmen who learn from Balumbasta/Lodril, warriors who learn from Vangono, Nyanka midwives etc. The magical position, whether it be a part time role or a full time one, is integrated into daily life, not about becoming a holy man separate from day to day life. They probably do have a lot of minor spirit cults and such, especially of various animal spirits and landscape spirits, and dealing with them is part of the Shamans job (probably the Pamalt shamans job, the Noruma shamans etc have other roles). Their equivalent of wyters are often landscape spirits that the local chieftain talks to. And while most of the public rites are fairly cheery things that provide solutions to shared problems provided by the 'priests' of the Witnesses, there are plenty of shamanic rites that are much more private, and for more personal solutions to problems (like getting rid of tricky ghosts or offended spirits, seeking personal advancement or fame, finding a lover, etc). And the Doraddi also definitely have the concept of the 'bad shaman' who talks to the spirit world, but does so for their own selfish reasons not for good communal reasons (hey, bad shamans like that who killed the sun once!). Now, Illuminates, like the Near Ones, they aren't community oriented. Mysticism is very personal. But then, mystics in Pamaltela would also be quite outside the normal social patterns - and every knows some shamans do weird things that no one understands, mysticism is just another one.

They'll mix rune magic and spirit magic, but a magician that can't deal with the spirits directly is only half a magician. So they mostly have shaman-priests, as you say like the Animal Nomads or the Grazers. They do have the equivalent of God-Talkers, people who have some good magic but are not dedicated magicians, usually people who manifest the gods power on earth and so have earthly responsibilities - like the Chief or a (female) household leader, or a great warrior. And, of course there are plenty of people around who have good magic but don't aspire to the High Shamanic Ideal at all, the Pamalt shamans might say they are foolish or wicked but they are still there.

Continuing the idea that we actually have a fair idea how 'regimental' magic works in RQG game terms now, consider She That Strikes From Afar in the RQ Glorantha Bestiary. Now, I'm going to add as a caveat that the rules part of how wyters are described is a bit messy. The MindLink spell is mentioned, even though it isn't in the core rules. We can assume that it is the same as in RQ2 (the RQ3 version didn't differ much). I'm also a bit vague on what 'A wyter spends points of its characteristic POW instead of Rune points when casting Rune spells with a chance of success equal to its CHAx5.' means in practice - for one thing, it isn't clear if this is simply a permanent loss of POW that needs POW Gain rolls to replace (which would make wyters casting rune magic a desperate act that permanently weakens it) or if it is restored more in the manner of Rune Points or similar, for another thing She That Strikes From Afar has a separate number of Rune Points listed in the stats, which is confusing. But ignoring the possibility of mass Rune Magic casting for the moment (though that seems rather the point of wyters). I am assuming that STSFA can use the Rune Points of her priests to cast spells via the Mind Link, and their magic points. MindLink allows the sharing of spells, and magic points, and at least 7 priests of the Minor Class unit are directly linked to She That Strikes From Afar. She That Strikes From Afar has the special ability to cast Madness using magic points, and on multiple targets using multiple magic points, and can take on a material form. So an attack from a Minor Class unit generally probably starts with the Discorporate Lunar magicians scouting the enemy, and then She That Strikes From Afar manifests. The physical form of STSFA appears as a red woman with 14 arms, but for game rules purposes is a huge (3x12x3) Lune. Not only can STSFA use the MPs and probably RPs of her Mind Linked priests, but priests can also cast Visibility on themselves, and manifest in the material world, and then cast spells on STSFA or others. They can probably do this with relative safety as long as STSFA has eliminated any major magical defences. As a Lune, she is quite physically vulnerable, so her Chief Priest will buff her with magical defences - probably something like a Shield 6. And STSFA can also use her priests Rune Points and MPs to heal herself, or they can heal her directly - and also shore up her defences. She is enveloping multiple people per round. Most of those enveloped will fall catatonic (POW vs her POW, which is likely to be either 31 or 46), a sizable minority (special attack) will fanatically attack someone, usually their colleagues. She is also spirit attacking, and slowly MP draining, those who resist the Lune Madness. And is able to draw on her Mind Linked priests for other attack spells. She is also blasting Madness spells all over the place - STSFA can cast these with magic points, and can grab magic points from her priestesses for this purpose. So basically STSFA can hit potentially dozens of people with Madness a round, and a few of those are attacking each other. The discorporate priestesses, at least those that have become Visible, can follow behind the wave of madness (the ones that aren't visible are supporting STSFA directly, and/or defending against attacks on the spirit plane. They can magically attack the few that have resisted STSFAs Madness, hitting them with spells like Befuddle just to stop them taking effective action, or Mindblast for a more permanent take down. And they can cast other magic. I suspect the Lunar minor elementals are popular - a small elemental isn't normally very dangerous, but in a camp full of people that are mostly catatonic or distracted, it can kill a lot of them quite quickly, and wreak other havoc (such as setting fires, or collapsing structures). They may have a few other surprises with them, such as Lunar demons. So what can their opponents do? Well, they can work out a well coordinated response, such as magicians dedicatedly dispelling defences while melee forces rush her, and hope to take STSFA out with hit point damage - but STSFA probably just heals herself if this doesn't succeed very quickly. They can have enough magical counter defences on their troops to deal with the Madness, and hope to fend off STSFA physically. They can desperately dispel or take out fanaticised madmen, and deal with follow up attacks, and hope to just outlast the attackers magic point supplies. Some units may be able to send in their own summoned creatures against her. Most of these tactics aren't great, but they might stop STSFA from effectively destroying or disrupting the unit before her entourages MPs have been deleted - and very soon afterwards the catatonic recover, so there is a fairly short window for STSFA to convert her wave of madness into lasting harm. The best tactic is probably to unleash their own wyter or similar level magical force, but most units will have a weaker wyter than a specialist magician unit. A very well prepared group of sorcerers could make a giant Neutralise Moon Protective Circle or something, and hope to get everyone in it in time, and that the collateral damage isn't too high. So thats what a 'Dragon Pass' magician unit attacking looks like. For other units, consider how much more or less effective the unit is, and who the magicians who make it up are. Other wyters have different abilities, and quite likely a wider range of them. Some will be even less subtle (the Eaglebrowns wyter is Thunderbird, who is going to raining down thunder and lightning, and his support acts will include a lot of Praxian shamans and air spirits, the Earth Twins are going to have a lot of Earth Quakes and malevolent earth elementals), some will require a bit more creativity in describing the magical effect in game terms (the Eleven Lights Starfire power is definitely not standard Orlanthi magic, but the description in The Eleven Lights is fairly vivid), some might be quite subtle, wreaking havoc on the minds of a units troops and morale and cohesion as much as physical damage. Some of the SMU will use draconic effects. Most will have a wider variety of magicians in the attack than I've represented here, in the SMU often including tricksters, sorcerers, a few mad Illuminates wielding unusual magic.

In battle, numbers count. In Prax, the real competition is competition for food, and food for mounts, not battle. Different mounts need different food sources, and different amounts of it. A giant of double the height would surely easily defeat that opponent only half their height. But that giant would also have eight times the mass, and probably require 8 times the food. Would that giant defeat 8 opponents all half his height, and armed with missile weapons? Probably not. It's usually not that extreme, but maybe that is a hint why the Impala people, who often outnumber their opponents two to one, survive in battle. Not only do they require less food, but the type of grazing lands they require for their impala are easier to find. The differences between the animal food requirements, both in type and quantity, determine the balance of power between the tribes as much as anything. And also the shifting alliances, because the tribes are not all competing for the exact same lands. And if you aren't competing for the same exact grazing lands, then if you have the advantage of speed you can usually avoid confrontation if you want to. But yeah, the Ostriches and Bolo Lizards are at a big disadvantage, but mostly because they do not share the same full blessings of Eiritha and so their animals do not thrive, and they must eke out a living around the edges of the other tribes. Maybe their tribes will become extinct in a few centuries, or maybe their tribal magic will keep them from quite disappearing. But its mostly NOT about who would win in a direct battle, its about who thrives in the wastes.

Are you sure Glorantha is for you? There is literally an entire second age Empire based around the idea that magic is logical and can be treated as a predictable technology, and they all died horribly because of it. The message about assuming magic works that way in Glorantha is not subtle. Assuming that magic is logical and predictable works to a point - but only to a point, and then it goes terribly wrong, and this gets demonstrated not only with the fall of the God Learners, but over and over again. It's not that magic is illogical per se, it is more that the rules are both subtler and deeper than is easily known, and subject to creative change, and is as much art and religion as technology.

You mean like Plant or Beast magic? I guess, but I don't think I'd equate it with the sort of direct physical effect implied by DP Physical Magicians. And we don't really have evidence of that sort of magic, while we do know of elemental magic used for warlike magic. {on the Stormwalkers_ I agree it is 'exotic' in the DP sense and not to be confused with the sort of physical magic talked about, but I don't think that means it has to be mystic in nature (and I think most DP Exotic magic is not in any way connected with mysticism). I find this image hilarious but implausible.

That is a pretty normal part of Doraddi religious practice for many deities. It's pretty much theism, except the priests are also shamans, IMO. I think the Near Ones are mystics and are able to approach the holy mountain of Um in the spirit world, a thing normally forbidden. This is, of course, a powerful metaphor for mystic attainment. But also an actual thing some of them can do.

Interestingly, the only mention of a flying carpet in Glorantha that I can recall is Ernalda magic (Orane weaves wove Dumela, the carpet that flew her and Durev out of the clutches of Endon the Cruel. I'm guessing it might involve some Storm magic from Durev too).

While clearly there are a lot of augmentation spells, I think "Strike enemy combatant dead" from that spell list strikes me as a pretty flashy direct attack spell.

Fighting is Babeester Gor's job - most Ernaldans do not even own an axe, or have the faintest idea how to wield one in combat. And everywhere but Esrolia, Babeester Gor is a tiny minority cult of miserable fanatics. There are the Maran Gor axe maidens, but again a tiny minority most places (except Old Tarsh).

Their job is also to respond to enemy magical attack, not just buff. But they do have Range, so while they probably want to be in sight of the battle where possible, they don't need to be very near it.

Whenever there is a line of reasoning that is basically 'if you just make this particular weird set of assumptions about how spell casting works then Gloranthan life would be changed forever', I tend to reject those weird assumptions. I think it is implied that Warding stakes are placed by the caster, and it's a Ritual that takes a little time, rather than a normal cast. Not really for open battlefields - all it requires is one well defended leader type (eg with a lot of Shield) to pull out a stake, and it will be pretty obvious (and risky) to have your priests performing Warding rituals in view of the enemy. But for an already defensible position, absolutely. Enough that a crucial job of magicians in any assault on a well defended position is to be ready to take down Wardings.

I've assumed that was the primary use of the spell for ages. Wrestlers who have been searched for weapons also become pretty scary.

Who died at the Dragonrise? I know that Tatius, Scarlet Enerian, Kangharl, all died. I've heard the Seven of Vistur died. I gather Appius Luxius, Head of the Provincial government, dies. Who else? Does Icilius Overholy die? Does Quinscion the Patient die? Which other local Kings die? Which regimental commanders? Anyone have a bigger list?

Never read it. It's unclear whether that incident is quite the same thing, though it is certainly something along the same lines. Why? Do we have the stats of any warlocks? Couldn't the wyter cast the necessary magic? I don't really know what you are insisting on - we have a fairly complete description of the process, plus we know the details vary considerably between groups, so what would one set of stats really prove? They are just suggestions. There are multiple ways it could happen. A shamanic group can already become discorporate, sorcerers could have some form of equivalent spell, the wyter could do it, they could have items or special group ceremonies. I really think the details vary by group and sometimes individual practitioner. There is no real suggestion anywhere that that happens for any of them. But sure, if you want that to be a thing for some groups, write it into your Glorantha. Again, sure, nothing in the material really suggests that, but if you want it for some particular unit. why not write it into your Glorantha? It's pretty much the same as being on the spirit plane, only there is a big collective spirit everyone is linked to (which you already have a description of for most of the SMU). Rules wise, it is spirit combat and magic casting. There is plenty of material you can read for descriptions of vision quests (of various kinds) if you want inspiration. This isn't something the rules are ever going to be able to fix for you.

Totally. Some sorcerers rely on that sort of magic heavily (I always think of Protective Circles as a bit of a Zendamalthan specialty, but it is too classic a trope). I think it could happen, but its fairly rare for sorcerers too. It implies an elemental specialist school, and there actually don't seem to be too many of those about in Orthodox Malkionism. And once again we are back to the trope of sorcerers doing quite well when they are able to prepare and have the battle go according to plan, and vulnerable when they have to improvise. Which seems appropriate. The Loskalmi sorcerers are generally armoured cataphracts. But yeah, I think the Brithini and Rokari don't go in for any kind of tank tactic that I've heard of. I assume the zzaburi mostly stay away from the battle front.