Joerg

I am wondering whether the City Rex proxies of a prince can use Orlanth Rex magics like Summon Followers for the city muster. Did any of the three tribal confederation mayors/C. Rexes survive the Dragonkill? How did Kallyr get to appoint Orngerin in Jonstown? Boldhome should have its own head magistrate, who may share the same job title as those of the three tribal confederation cities, but that worthy has "only" the citizens of his city under his legislative. (That number is still higher than the Alone confederation...) The capital ought to be able to muster two militias, though (one foot one horse), as warriors may be somewhat over-represented in the capital city. Duck Point used have something like a mayor, Polgo Hoarfoot, but the city only really has durulz under its authority. In 1613, the durulz were represented by a shaman rather than that noteworthy, but then there was only one mayor on the High Council, from Wilmskirk. Garastal Flatnose, mayor of Wilmskirk, did have the vote of confidence from his urban population at Sartar High Council 1613, but little support from the four tribes of the confederation. Sartar Kingdom of Heroes gives us Polgo for Duck Point prior to 1613. Sartar Companion names Lyserian Goodspeech as mayor of Jonstown. What happened to this worthy?

Other Suns has BRP mechanics. The "upright mammal" aliens are similar to Space Opera, though.

Regarding Vareena, she obviously was born with a silver spoon (parent's social rank lesser noble) but chose the path of the adventurer as soon as she came of age, taking more or less permanent leave from her clan and tribal membership, transferring both allegiance and worship to the temple of Torath Manover. 15 years or so later she returns, a hardened veteran adventurer (more so than mercenary) with experience and high-ranking connections in Trilus and Jonstown (where Joh Mith is about to settle down and take over a very high rank, it seems). Those Jonstown connections via Joh Mith would count for more if she has maternal kin among the Namoldings. Joh Mith obviously knows Vareena from his visits at the Lightbringer Temple in Trilus. The expat community there is small. It isn't quite clear whether Vareena would have gone under the name of Dronlansdotter. From her description, she could not leave Apple Lane fast enough, and her father may not have been her significant parent (or so much so that she felt a professional rivalry). Joh would certainly have learned about Gringle packing up his remaining belongings and leaving Sartar, and the death of Dronlan would have come up in that tale, too. We don't know whether Vareena still was a follower of Torath at the time of Dronlan's death. If not, not even Joh Mith's news to Trilus would have reached her within a year. It is entirely possible that she had already set out to make a name for herself as the leader of a party like Torath Manover's at the start of her career - possibly escorting Bluebird back to New Crystal City in the course of him clearing his name. That would bring her into the vicinity of the Grazelands. Yes. It is the typical atypical hamlet in Sartar. We have several more hamlets around an inn run by an Issaries innkeeper or administrator now. The detailed map of the Colymar tribal territory and surrounding places has more than a dozen places called Inn, quite likely similar in appearance to Farfield, the setting of The Rattling Wind in Pegasus Plateau. Another one (without any farmers around) between Alone and Herongreen. There are other places where people with some merit have a claim to a piece of land inside the tribal area, for instance Alebard's Tower in or near Antorling lands. Alebard was a companion of Londra of Londros. As the seat of a triaty, it probably has a Rex Oppidi, or City King. Nowadays a sub-king of the Colymar king. The Tree Triaty of the Lysang, Namolding and the predecessor of the Antorling clan possibly had one, too. Possibly Fairjowl in Antorling lands - the Colymar kings of old appear to have had a habit of destroying one clan in a triaty and then reforming it around a direct descendant of Old Man Colymar. Arnoring, Antorling - they even sound similar. Tarkalor's Keep would be an appointee by the Prince of Sartar, I think. Those three towers named after Saronil's sons were supra-tribal keeps inside the northern border of the principality. Odd Tower may be a well-preserved ruin from before the Dragonkill, but then the same probably goes for Alebard's tower. Given the shape of Clearwine, some of those ruins may be structurally more sound than the newly built Lunar mansions, or what remained of those. Asborn is, as the chief priest of Orlanth under Leika. Probably wasn't under Blackmor. Alebard is to the Colymar tribal kings what Gringle was to the Princes of Sartar, I suppose. These things sprung up after Blackmor returned from Exile as a Lunar turncoat, which is why I think that Blackmor assigned steads, inns or hamlets controlled by the office of the tribal king as partial repayment for the Lunar support to back his claim against Leika. Who on the Lunar side took the bribes to actually assign the manor sites to Heartland families is a matter inside the Lunar administration, at that time run by Fazzur and his deputies like Gordius Silverus.

The RQ3 era text (e.g. Elder Secrets Box Secrets Book p.11, The Fading Lands) mentioned the Hidden Castles alongside the Hidden Greens, magical pastures that fade into and out of existence in the Wastes, but that term seems to have been re-interpreted now as cyclically fertile areas of the wastes that allow grazing every few years. The Egg of Erangalos Karastomabor (same source p.10) might be a special case of such fading into and out of reality, too. After 1616, the City of Wonders effectively became something like a Hidden Castle, and after 1624 possibly even more so.

My point is that she, as an individual, cannot file a legal claim. She needs some kind of community to take her in and back her claim for the current thane (who has the backing of King Leika, one would assume) to even get into a legal case. While it is possible that Dronlan's children were born into their mother's clan rather than Dronlan's, that would be a highly unusual case of Esrolian marriage where the male is clearly the socially superior (a tribal thane beats about everything a clan's thane can be except for chieftain or chief priest). If he cohabitated with the mother of his children without marriage, the children would belong to the mother's clan. Dronlan (as a thane) can still have personal followers from wherever he wants to (one of the perks of being a thane), so he could have instituted his sons as companions. Alternatively, Vareena may be a pre-marital child, therefore belonging to her mother's clan even if her mother did marry Dronlan later on. If Vareena cannot provide clan provenience, she can still apply for status as tribal follower, but that would at best make Leika a neutral party, not a supporter. She might be able to get her temple to back the case - possibly old Torath Manover, but how much influence can the Trilus temple exert in Colymar lands? Possibly Asborn Thriceborn, if he had a hand in helping Vareena join the mercenaries which ended up bringing her into Torath Manover's band. Sartar Companion p.169 states that Dronlan hails from the Ernaldori clan, and was installed by Dangmet, the predecessor of Kallai. I doubt that there is any new canon that supersedes this info, so for the while I would treat this as the official information until officially contradicted Possibly even still has brothers, although of unknown status. The other folk would be in-laws, without much of an obligation to take her into their clan and into a legal dispute that could cost them dearly. The current thane would have to be in their bad books already for either clan to take this risk. Since we are talking pre-1613 for Vareena's disappearance, both the Namolding and Lysang clans were from the Colymar tribe at her departure, too, so she might have maternal ties to the Malani tribe now. That could open a much bigger can of worms. Full agreement there.

It almost looks like your chances at getting to use sorcery as an adventurer are better for non-Malkioni than they are for Malkioni. For the Rokari, we know that only boys selected at a young age, with high intelligence, will get introduced into the zzabur caste and taught sorcery. It isn't known what happens to those who drop out. Perhaps dropping out is fatal, perhaps dropping out means a future in monastic isolation. There are bound to be female sorceresses in Tanisor and Ralios, and also boys with the talent and the will to learn sorcery who did not get picked by the selection of the wizards. Some variant of Chalana Arroy teaching a restricted canon of non-aggressive sorcery may actually be tolerated by the Watchers, but possibly also strongly regulated and cloistered. I don't think that Lhankor Mhy would find such acceptance, not even in monastic isolation, given the kind of scholarship that led to the God Learners and which is anathema to Rokarism - no idea how they treat magic-adjacent guilds like e.g. alchemists. Naval sorcery is acceptable in the Quinpolic League, whether brought by Dormal, resurrected from Debaldan School documents, or acquired from the Waertagi. (The Rokari scene in the Guide shows at least one descendant of Waertagi among the bearers of the sedan.) In Loskalm, your character needs to become a Guardian, then a Man-of-All, and finally graduate from that as a full-fledged sorcerer supported by the state. It is still unclear whether Guardians who show a potential for sorcery already get taught some of the prerequisite skills. Also, there may be ways that are not approved by the Ecclesiarch that still may allow an adventurer to learn sorcery. There is contact with Sog City, ruled by Brithini (provided they have at least one Talar in the Brass Citadel, otherwise advised by Brithini Zzaburi), and branches of the ancient schools of sorcery outside of the Brass Citadel where useful idiots can learn to be assistants for the sorcerers inside the citadel. As they are mayflies, it isn't clear whether their Brithini masters really notice when they abscond, unless they take something along which can be traced (like the manuscripts in those branch libraries, or other magical tools). Jonatela has an unrepenting academy of Makanist sorcerers, established by the founder Jonat Bigbear when he brought a monstery worth of fanatical sorcerers to his homeland. These sorcerers will have influenced the other wizards in eastern Fronela. There may be Waertagi sorcery - probably mixed with stuff inherited from the Kachisti and then corrupted by the Vadeli - surviving in the heavily depopulated Janube area, possibly only surviving in musty tomes or architectural inscriptions that emerged from the Ban when the people who wrote or built them (or their descendants) did not. As a Waertagi, sorcery may be your birthright, although you will still have to bring the talent for it, and you need the education. Sog City may be one place to get a higher education. (Offspring of the riverine Waertagi on the Janube, Sweet Sea, Poralistor and Oronin may have secret access to some, see above and below when the Lunars are discussed.) As an Esvulari from a Zzaburi family, sorcery is your birthright, too, again with the need for the talent. The education should be something guaranteed in your upbringing. There will be Zzaburi cast folk who cannot learn (systematic) sorcery according to the rules due to too low scores in INT. It isn't clear whether the Esvulari talars and zzaburi have retained (or ever had) Brithini skin coloration. The commoner caste is indistinguishable from their Theyalan neighbors, but then a mix of red and brown would be indistinguishable, too. Even less clear is the case for God Forgot. We know about actual Brithini in the place, and we know about Ingareens. I suspect that some of the Ingareens may be centuries old - it isn't clear whether Belintar's overseer is of Ingareen or Brithini stock, although orthodox Brithini might be shocked at his style of garment, and old Leonardo may be of Dronar caste rather than Zzabur caste as his forte appears to be mechanical construction, although he is in all likelihood extremely well read and educated. There are Trader Princes in Maniria who keep their own sorcerers as retainers. It isn't clear where these sorcerers come from and what Schools they represent, if any. Many probably look to Ralios. Ramalia has a ruling caste suspected to use sorcery. Possibly of a Vivamort bend, if you believe nasty rumors, possibly inheriting Vadeli knowledge that somehow did not get requisitioned after the fall of the Vampire Kings of Tanisor by the Brithini bringing Arkat, or by the Return to Rightness crusaders three centuries later. Ramalia is (weirdly) the most functional survivor of the Archduchy of Slontos, which appears to have been one of the most productive areas supporting Malkionieranist experimentation. The rulers may be a form of men-of-all similar to those of the Castle Coast. Safelster and adjacent Arkati-influenced regions, and Arkati in Maniria and North Esrolia, are easter eggs. Parts of Safelster follow Rokari ways, even when they don't necessarily accept any influence from Segurane on wizard appointments. The non-Rokari parts are where things get interesting. Most of the neo-Arkati forms of Malkionism (and sorcery) were founded with the aid and influence of Halwal, who was one of the foremost Makanist sorcerers but whose role in the conflict with the Malkioneranists (the stereotypical God Learners in most references to God Learners or Jrusteli, except for the earliest successes like the burning of Vralos or the summoning of Tanian) may have given him insight in and even knowledge of Malkioneranist magics. Halwal never succeeded in unifying the various Arkati schools that he had guided, but he got them to fight alongside him against the Seshnegi Makanist orthodoxy that Halwal blamed for the failures of the Middle Sea Empire. Then there are the "heretic" schools of Safelster, like the Galvosti and Boristi. The Galvosti apparently were at large in Korioni lands prior to the emergence of the Chariot of Lightning sect and Erengazor's Proven Appearance of Arkat movement as popular movements away from Galvosti teachings. The basic education of Argin Terror may include Galvosti magics. We know that the Galvosti are a group with Hrestoli roots, which suggests to me that they have an inheritable zzaburi caste and men-of-all who get taught at least basic sorcery, much like the Castle Coast Hrestoli do, and like certain groups in Pithdaros, the Quinpolic League and the southern provinces of the Kingdom of Tanisor prefer to do when they can avoid the scrutiny of the watchers reporting to Segurane. Probably including individuals who report as watchers to Segurane. Genuine Arkati teachings may be available to the trolls of Guhan, but those would be selective in scope, possibly avoiding magics like or similar to those of the Chariot of Lightning sect which has sorcerers. Carmania apparently restricts its sorcery to their vizier caste. If Syranthir had magical men-of-all regiments among his 10,000 followers of Irensavalism or groups tolerant towards those ways who had fallen afoul the Arimadalla dynasty and their Jrusteli/Seshnegi zealot allies, there doesn't seem to be anything left of that in the Hazar or ruler castes. More than half of the heartlands of Carmanos and his successors now are regular satrapies of the Heartlands - Oronin and Doblian. The people of the West Reaches are culturally very similar to those in western Oronin or northern Doblian, but are a part of the Dara Happan overseer-ship that came with the overthrow of Bisodakar in the wake of the Red Goddess. There is a strong "Lodrilite" element in the local nobility, as the Eel-Ariash clan which is (as far as I can make out) of Lodrili (or Turosi) origin left its Lunar imprint on those lands, even after losing the Doblian satrapy to a loss in a Dart Competition. Lunar sorcery as taught by the Imperial College of Magic has taken all the stuff left behind by the Bull Shah sorcerers, including Spolite teachings that seeped into their ranks during the turnover from the (strongly anti-Spolite) Lion Shahs. Then there are the older Waertagi and YarGan (=Vadeli) teachings that underly the West Reaches and the Poralistor cities. The sorcerers of Orathorn are an unknown quantity, as would be any slaves of theirs who might have acquired some of that knowledge and managed to escape. Kralorela and the East has its own traditions of sorcery, probably related to the Kingdom of Logic (the common source of the sorceries of Zzabur, Vadel, and Lhankor Mhy) by their SherAdpara god Martalak, and later infused by God Learner era sorcery like that of Valkaro or the companions of Guiliam D'Estau in Kralorela, and whatever sorcerous knowledge remained in Teshnos and on Melib. We don't have much in terms of RQG information yet. The JTC Kralori primer makes an interesting stab at retaining stuff from RQ3 Gods of Glorantha and Genertela box which might be compatible with RQG sorcery, but I doubt that its conclusions will be the same as the manuscript currently back-logged until we see the Nochet book and an expansion into the wider world. Umathela and Fonrit both have sorceres, and at least Fonritian sorcerers might make playable characters. Especially those hired (or bought) by the Maslo folk. Zzabur's Brithini sorcery is the dark, somewhat known underbelly of sorcery almost everywhere. There is an even darker underbelly of Vadeli sorcery that is present in almost every Malkioni area, based on Zzabur's teachings but leading them towards depraved new lows - and then perhaps refined to even lower lows by their human disciples in Fonrit. The Waertagi-inheritance of Zzabur's sorcery plus a strong element of ancetral, Sea-only secrets may have spread to the ports they frequented, but then at least since the Opening, those same ports have been frequened by Vadeli, who are all too willing to teach some of their sorcery for a steep price. The RQG occupation of "Philosopher" is an approach to sorcery which doesn't exactly mandate initiation to Lhankor Mhy or membership in a Malkioni school. Where might such individuals be found, what would be their background? How likely will you meet anybody from God Forgot in one of the other Sixths, and may there be sorcerers of any kind among them?

The Sartarite farmers (and other occupations) are members of a warrior culture, and odds are high that some "ancestor" (unmarried aunt or uncle, whatever) brought home a weapon you would not expect in the militia if your household is not destitute (which may mean that desperation can outweigh pride and such things are sold or pawned off). Is that so? In a warband, leaders may distribute weapons or other tools of the trade to their followers. On the other hand, the description for the criterion to vote in a tribal moot in King of Sartar seems to be possession of a warrior's implements (however temporary a possession). Athens had a plutocratic assignment of status - if you could afford to field and maintain a hoplite armor, then you had the prestige, duties and influence of a hoplite citizen. If there are young or coppiced trees around and the javelineer owns a decently sized knife or an axe he won't run out of ammunition easily. Point quality may vary, but even a timber only spear will wound animals that have a 2-point skin or fur in the Bestiary. At least on an impale (but then the difference between an impale and a normal high damage success is that removing the missile doesn't damage you any more than you already have been damaged). Crafting and affixing points may take a little more time, effort and costly material, although stone blades can be knapped by a somewhat experienced knapper in reasonable time, bone or horn points can be carved from suitable material, and getting some sinews from butchered sacrifices or beasts you brought down with other javelins on the hunt shouldn't be that hard, either. My personal experience is with arrow points rather than spear points, but my experience is that as long as you can recover your missile, even if the shaft may be broken, a metal point will be salvageable, at least for recovery of the metal. A bent bronze point may be hammered back into shape, or in the worst case melted as scrap metal. No idea whether the concept of the Roman pilum as a missile that cannot be picked up and thrown back because the point is bent beyond immediate reuse upon impact on a shield is part of Gloranthan equipment. On the other hand, nothing a field smithy can't straighten again. Stone blades may very well be one-use items when penetrating something hard or impacting on hard things (like bones). But then, there is also an archaeological record of metal points embedded in bone. Thrown javelins don't usually need to be adjusted for hardness - the thrower grabs them in the center of balance, which usually also is the stable point in it vibration. That requirement changes when you use an atlatl or similar device to enlarge your throw radius, as now you exert all the force on the end of the shaft, bending it in a different way - the same way an arrow thrown by a bow gets bent into a half wave upon release. Now you have to fiddle with tensile strength of your missile and possibly add guiding fletching to the spear, and yes, you get a high tech missile that may take a craftsman a day or so to create. (Or more likely, a dozen such missiles that took the craftsman two weeks to produce, including all the preparatory steps.) If javelins and arrows sod a the prices in the rules book, picking a battle site for salvageable ammo (alongside salvageable equipment dropped or removed from casualties) should be a major industry. I guess that Glorantha will have its share of Nobbys (certified human) or Thenardiers (if you know Les Miserables). As battlefield archaeology proves, the salvage endeavors of such vultures are rarely complete. On the topic of salvage, and somewhat returning to the topic of the thread - what are the chances for losing magical stuff in the heat of battle, and for recovering such stuff? I imagine that Narmeed Whirlvishbane wouldn't spare any effort to reclaim those iron arrowheads he received from Biturian for his wedding. Quite possibly he went to Pavis and bought a "Detect Iron" spell, if not for himself then for a trusted follower. RQG character generation has a decent chance to provide your adventurer with a magical heirloom, whether a dead crystal or an enchantment. These things must get lost, or taken away upon capture, quite a lot. If they have a restriction of user condition on them, they are likely to be ransomed back to someone who can actually use the item, or such a person might assist in an enchantment process that adds another restriction or exemption from restriction to that item. What are your thoughts on expanding user conditions? On adding exemptions from user conditions? And how would that play into the price of an enchanted item that needs such an "attunement" to its future owner? Another thought on missiles: Many GMs like to create scarcity situations for players when it comes to long distance combat instruments, whether missiles or magic. There is a lot less heroism in sniping, and even less in saturation missile attacks, and it makes it harder for the PCs to have a chance to survive heroism in melee attacks under missile saturation situations or sniper coverage, too, when the opposition uses such tactics, unless you allow a weapon's race where those melee tanks can soak up any damage thrown at them without breaking skin very much, and that healed faster than the follow-up attack.

For a legal claim against you, your opponent must be backed by a different clan (tribe, guild, temple) than you. Vareena might go all Lawstaff on the current thane, as the situation has some similarity with the claims for (the high pastures of) Arrowtop Mountain. But what kind of backers could she bring? There could be an interesting story in Vareena and her followers rounding up the old band from Trilus, with a grizzled Torath Manover barely able to walk but still a zone of death with his sword (possibly the Windsword). A story like Joe Abercromby would write... Did the current thane deal with Pig Hollow all the way through? If not, Vareena and hers could match the current holder of the office by going against Redeye. Or possibly challenge the Thane to a race against this stain on Colymar honor? Vareena could renew her claim for Ernaldori clan membership. Her Grazer marriage would have to be acknowledged by the clan, too. She might appeal directly to King Leika for acknowledgement of her tribal identity - after all she was born to a tribal thane's household. One question I have is what exactly it is that Vareena wants from this recognition of her claims. Is it noble status? Or does she really wish to lord over an out-of-sight hamlet full of odd people, few of which she would remember from her childhood? Is she looking for retirement? Does she want support to take revenge on Erinda? The Dragonrise may have robbed her of that opportunity. Does she have children that she wants to leave in a secure place before seeking her fate in the upcoming Hero Wars? (BTW, what happened to her brothers, who had managed the farming of the Thane's stead, after the death of Dronlan? Disowned by Blackmor? Sent into slavery, possibly to the New Temple?) She may not even have learned of his death until recently, and may have started her journey in the expectation of meeting her family here. But, out of curiosity, what exactly would have happened to Dronlan's family after he died or retired from the post as the Thane of Apple Lane? Or any other (tribal) royal appointee's family? Dronlan was a direct follower of the tribal king, or the tribal temple. While he was born as an Ernaldori, the first legal affiliation would have been the tribal temple headed by the tribal king. Now from the events in Sartar Companion, it looks like King Blackmor wasn't much of a personal friend of Dronlan's. The Thane of Apple Lane would be one of several such appointees any new king of the Colymar would inherit, take a renewal of their oaths of allegiance, and leave in place. How many such tribal thanes do the Colymar have, and where? There are the heads of the major cults, representing their respective temples. (And the temples would be their primary legal backing, not the tribal king.) There are the personal cadre of bodyguards/armed companions of the king, and any odd magical companions who may not hold any tribal office but may have been instrumental in their heroquests (like Leika's Crown Test into Snake Pipe Hollow). There would be administrators of tribal owned steads with tenants, like Apple Lane. Where would these have been? Would the destroyed Lunar Manors have been in such places? I tend to refer to Apple Lane as Gringlestead. There is a thane appointed by the Colymar king in place, but all the weird folk assembled here in the original description of the setting are here because they have some companion relationship to Gringle - maybe not direct. The Ulerian temple may be past the original priestess who founded it. Such an indirect duel would be interesting, and might serve as the motivation behind the adventures in The Smoking Ruins. Or, to quote Friedrich Schiller, "I would, allow my intention, Become the third in your union." (The rhyme is better in the original version, under the link.)

Well, that's Glorantha for you. You come in with a conviction, then somebody pulls up an oblique passage or asks a question, and all of a sudden you find yourself in a very different situation. The Sunstop (and the Golden Age) was a situation when the sun was directly overhead, so nobody had much of a shadow while standing upright. I wonder whether having acquired a second shadow would have been seen as beneficial by a devout Solar. Sure, they would have gained another source of light. But they had increased Darkness around themselves. I wonder what Tatius' Assiday family did during the Dragon Sun Emperor's reign in the EWF. A Dara Happan tenet seems to be that having an Emperor is good, no matter what kind of emperor. Throughout Dara Happan history there have been families siding with the Horse Warlords whenever those were powerful. There were Dara Happan families happily cooperating with the Carmanian emperors, and there were Dara Happan families taking advantage of the shift in power when the Dragon Sun sat on the Footstool and the Dragon Throne. These latter families may very well have acquired some draconic insight or artifacts and passed them on. Could Tatius have gotten into contact with the Dragon Sun, or Sun Dragon? I have this crackpot theory that the Silver Shadow and its extension, the Glowline, is actually the invisible part of the Red Moon beyond the Crown Mountains, which (IMO) look like the mirror image of the Crater Walls because they actually are the backside of the Crater Walls. Thanks to the Temples of the Reaching Moon one doesn't notice this any more, but from what I see in the descriptions the Silver Shadow has had the Glowline effect ever since the formation of the Crater. Yara Aranis' first temple did create a Glowline which lay entirely inside the Silver Shadow, though, but it looks like it created an additional barrier against the magics of Sheng's Empire. A bit like mystic one-upmanship. Kallyr definitely was involved in a plot against the dedication ceremony of the New Lunar Temple, and she had taken advice from Orlaront on draconic energies there. That much is factual, as is a rite performed by the new Feathered Horse Queen and Jandetin the Avenger to deal with some revenge. I wonder whether the previous FHQ was at the dedication ceremony, or whether the Dragon Dance of her successor and her new Stallion King caught her elsewhere. So at least one other major player was mucking around with draconic energies to overcome a rival. We have no idea what went on in Kralorela at the time, but I don't really think there can be a huge draconic event without Kralorela seeing some repercussions. (But then, how did the Dragonewts Dream event play out in Kralorela?) Elsewhere, the fleet of Waertagi from Hell with its Dragon City-ships re-appeared on the surface Seas. Anybody want to bet on an arrival date different from the Dragonrise? (Sure, the first rise of the Boat Planet since the Closing is a good rival.) And who knows what dark rituals went off in Fonrit in the struggle between the Artmali rebels and Afadjanni establishment that enabled or influenced the stellar distortions of the Dragonrise? Was a return of the Blue Moon into the sky thwarted by how the rites turned out? You cannot actually "know" this, as much of this hasn't been written down in publications, and possibly not even in the unpublished notes and marginalia from Greg or the writing process for the Guide, which saw a good deal of elimination of available but not too relevant information, too. Glorantha remains a journey of discovery - sometimes of facts you find in writing, sometimes of extremely cool things that come up in your game or in your preparations for a game. Just like science.

Oh well, more thread drift to discussing spell specifics, and sorry about that. But discussing the events in detail would be spoilers for the scenario, and you made a point about using RQG as true to the RAW as possible. The spell description say that woad gives armor and magical protection, not magical armor and protection. The rules lawyer in me says that the enchanted woad is a treasure similar to Rhino Fat, hence allowable against stuff that ignores magical armor. Or would an enchanted Iron plate arnor be useless against a Sunspear? The magical protection is weirdly different from Countermagic. It discerns between friendly and hostile magic. Does it sense intent?

Big secret... the Morokanth still have those original Godtime humans who are incapable of speech. The other beast riders were uplifted by Waha Heston.

This makes a baboon initiating to Daka Fal extremely hard. What's the work-around for that?

Back when he still advocated the strict division between the three Otherworlds, Greg said that martial arts are "Something you know", hence could be treated like sorcery. So maybe there could be techniques and possibly runes you master by spending POW after some sufficient meditation, and actual skills (i.e. spells) that you release upon striking. Perhaps using something like RQ3's Godunya's Magic, aka rune power to power sorcery spells, which would excuse the extremely shortened casting time compared to Western sorcery. For another way, maybe revisiting the Ki skills from Land of Ninja, but starting them at a much lower level than 100% might be a way to do this and have magical martial artists upon character creation or at least shortly thereafter. Some form of purification through meditation might be necessary to call upon these abilities. Possibly with failure punished similar to failing a Runic Inspiration test. But then, all of this still sucks compared to a Weapon Trance spell unless the damage effects get really cinematic.

They ruled all of Genert's Garden, or how else do you explain the ruins of Kang Luway's palace on the Teshnan border? (Guide vol.2, p.433) And given the 'rilla population in Caladraland, probably even beyond the area now called the Wastes.

One form of draconic magic I have been advocating for decades is the manifestation of dreams. Not necessarily the core being of the dreamer, but some troubling aspect that needs to be dealt with. Wyverns originated from dragons' wet dreams (but then got caught up in that spirit and procreated to become an almost mundane species (much like the dinosaurs). In a way, manifesting a dream body can be an avatar to experience and compute emotions - that's what I postulate is what the dragonewt eggs do when they incarnate as 'newts. In another way, manifesting a dream dragon can be a dragon's way to purify itself to advance to total ascension (as Obduran the Flyer did only days after his assumption of the True Dragon form). Manifesting a dragon can be a way to lose bits of yourself (and that's something Robin Hobb's Farseer saga explores, too - looking at the Elderlings in that series might be one way to think of the EWF core region prior to the 1042 mass utuma).

In the Elf Sea region, there is another bunch of go-to bad guys: the horse nomads. Who claim that their ancestors walked the very ground now covered by the Elf Sea, some say. So why not have a crazed Pentan shaman, his bunch of Dothraki braves and earth mother priestesses muck around here, treating everybody not born in a saddle like shit? Darksense could work in dark waters, but might be strongly dampened by the denser other element in between. The Sea Trolls of Choralinthor Bay and beyond have adapted their Darksense to work well in dark waters, but I think that landlubber uz would find the underwater experience of Darksense quite disorienting, much like the likes of you and me need to adapt to how sounds are carried differently under water. (Only we don't use our hearing as the dominant sense for orienting ourselves spatially, and not talking about finding out where gravity or acceleration is pulling us in the middle ear sensors.) On the other hand, Chalana Arroy healers might want a troll assistant for the ability to darksense into a body. Which may be as frightening an experience as spending time in a magnetic resonance tomography tube... Troll darksense might be able to penetrate down to the bones of a living being with an endoskeleton. In a totally unrelated game @Bill the barbarian, the question has come up how to mask ourselves to avoid being recognized by trolls. Perfume might be one way, spices another, to give two senses a totally wrong image. Facepaint (kettle black) may be pretty much a waste of time other than conceiling runic tattoos, and I suspect that Darksense interacts with the slight scarring of tattoos better than a troll's eyes will ever pick up differences in brightness. In addition, Darksense may give the user an impression of the bone structure, and certainly a good image of the teeth. Trolls may very well remember people more by their dental idiosyncracies than by facial features in lumpy flesh. How do you disguise that? Answers to this question and discussion of troll sensory input might warrant a thread away from this one.

Path of Immanent Mastery definitely is one of the Short Cuts used by the leaders of the Third Council, according to p.138 in Heortling Mythology. I suspect Great Lord Burin to have manifested as a dragon using these magics in the Kotor Wars. (We know hardly anything but the name about this individual...) Ingolf's manifestations of his True Dragon powers are described in History of the Heortling Peoples, starting at p.50. His powers were of the orthodox dragon mystics, and those of his forebears who did not use them outside of their questing for self-improvement had a shot at True Dragonhood. Obduran is the only dragon mystic who also worshiped Orlanth but became a True Dragon, but descriptions of the Dragonkill suggest that there may have been other (older) dragon mystics (whose personal ascension quests started when the wyrms' friends still were a persecuted minority) who achieved full dragonhood or at least full wyrmhood and who came to obey the call to the Dragonkill. (There is a two-page write-up of one such individual, post-Dragonkill, in an early three digit numbered issue of Dragon magazine, by Sandy Petersen.) Dragonewt Magic would be a way, too. A significant number of Newtling bachelors acquires such abilities in exchange for menial services at the dragonewt cities, but as most only leave that service (and receive their reward) when it is time to return to their birth ponds to mate and to oversee their tadpole offspring, it would be hard to recruit enough such newtlings to form a force of dragonewt magic enabled warriors. Robin Laws enjoyed using the martial arts riff for EWF in the Second Age book, and mentions Sung Dragonbone armor and weapons, analogous to the dragonewt weaponry already described in Elder Secrets. Greg has written up one dojo of draconic martial artists in Arcane Lore, p.41. With 2000 worshipers, this may be the biggest human draconic congregation west of the Shan Shan mountains, with the central monastery located in (or near) Karse and a major branch outside of Furthest, closer to the actual lair of Krisa Yar, the Red Dragon of Dragon Pass. On the whole, I was so disappointed how the EWF was treated in the first edition of MRQ that I didn't even consider playing the game. Loz did an admirable salvage job for the second edition of MRQ and managed to create them as good antagonist for his Karvanyar campaign in Dara Happa Rising. I have yet to read up about Lorenkargartan aka Labrygon's exploits in Old Pavis. Much of the effort that Greg had put into outlining the Machine Wars failed to result in a playable campaign of that war, despite setting up a great sandbox for it. The material has seen publication in History of the Heortling Peoples, p.53 onwards. Unfortunately, the main EWF hero involved here is Varankol the Mangler, the prototype of the modern Tusk Rider Aramites. Anything but a dragon mystic. But then, this was a proxy war for the Third Ring, and manifesting draconic powers across the Hendriki territory probably would have caused these dragon-sceptic (to say the least) allies against the God Learners to rethink their cooperation. The description of the Kotorsland wars tells us about dragons and wyvern riders involved at the battle of Maretsford (HotHP p.80 onward) and of how the EWF mystics defied God Learner sorcery and logic. A campaign in Ditali lands might unearth "undetonated weapons of mass destruction" left behind by either side, whether secrets of e.g. the Slontan Surprise Battalion (which would make a good addition to the Sartar Magical Union, or possibly already are within the roster of the magical units) or stuff furthering draconic martial arts, draconic transformations, or simply EWF weaponry. Such a campaign could very well be based on the Nochet Knowledge temple, and could see Lunar "archaeologists", too. Possibly stuck here without any support line after the Battle of Pennel Ford and the Dragonrise. A Lunar campaign waiting to be written.

The Dragonkill may have occasioned a great increase in dragonewt numbers. Biggest dragon orgy in recorded history.

The "Dumbest Theory" thread deserves a nomination.

Basically, you would save up going woad-clad for a cloudy day, and hope that your supporters have enough Cloud Call to counter the opposing side's Cloud Clear. Also, for every Sunspear by a priest in golden ceremonial armor, your side will cast a chained Thunderbolt on such characters once the cloud cover is back up again. Does Absorption work on Sunspears or Thunderbolts? Reflection and Castback both fail on Thunderbolts and Sunspears as there is no POW vs POW contest. and so does any Countermagic effect as the magic happens outside of the target's aura (just like it fails to prevent Fireblade or Firearrow). Did any of your defenders use "Suppress Lodril"? That's a nasty piece of magic if you are facing hoplites or Sun Domers.

Lanbril stands out in another way - he defies categorization. Most deities are children or grandchildren of elemental deities (Srvuali in Malkioni cladistic) or they are the result of the Powers mating and mixing, or with the Elementals, to produce Burtae. The only ancestry we get for Lanbril is that he was a son of Grandfather Mortal. Who may have been a member of the Celestial Court as the personification of the Man Rune, which (weirdly) removed him from being oh so divine and grand as all the other Court deities. The powers Lanbril inherited are only those of the human nature. In other words, Lanbril is a mortal who became a god. Already in Godtime. He is not a Prometheus - that's Eurmal. Born of the Elder gods, going against the unjust ruling cabal of deities (Yelm's Court) to bring Fire to those humans not directly blessed by the Emperor's demand for immediate and unyielding obedience. He is not a Hercules. No divine spark, no elemental power, no power rune in his magical make-up. What runes he calls his have been stolen, or picked up, like the tatters of Tylenea's cloak after her failure to tame the Boggles. Of the three runes listed in the Pavis box, only Disorder and Illusion are available as character runes in RQG. Mastery needs to be acquired by heroquesting. Has Lanbril already shown up in the pre-release of Gods and Goddesses of Glorantha? Does he get a third rune, or does he come as a subset of Eurmal's runes? But then, already the RQ2 rules gave us The Black Fang as a criminal cult, an example of a minor or hero cult. Even the Pavis box gives us the paragraph on non-Lanbril thieves, but that paragraph also suggests that his cult is at large in Sartar and neighboring lands. It is sad but true that we don't have any urban scenarios for Glorantha outside of New Pavis until the theft of Hofstaring's hands from the Royal Palace in Boldhome, and that hardly uses the urban setting. Chaosium did produce some of the best urban settings in cooperation with Midkemia Press, re-printing The City of Carse and compiling the Thieves World box. But while these could be played in Glorantha (and were, by the Chaosium house campaign), they weren't published as such. (Thieves World does have a prominent thieves' god in Shalpa, though - son of the ruling god Ils, whose people and empire have been defeated by the Rankan empire presided over by the sun god Savankala and his happy family, including Vashanka the Ten-Slayer who vanquished his brothers - good approximations of Yelm and Shargash.) We got descriptions of major cities and metropolises in the Genertela Box. and with a little booklet with additional information, the first box of the Avalon Hill RuneQuest series could have been the starting point for a campaign in urban Tarsh, Saird or Dara Happa. Unfortunately nobody jumped onto this when that box came out, possibly stunned by the absence of Glorantha content when it simply followed the publication strategy behind The City of Carse and Thieves World. Much of that is theft in markets. Researching the RQ2 spells Create Market and Warding, all a thief needs to enter an Issaries Market without triggering the alarm and Disrupt is a sufficiently large Detection Blank. Create Market is a 3 rune power spell, but most of those two extra points seem to go into enlarging the area from 81m², whereas the Create Market spell has a range of 160 meters (presumably the side length of the warded area? Total side length?). Alternatively, a large number of would-be thieves or attackers could cross the boundary (marked by a "very dull Lightwall") en masse, either toughing out the Disrupt (Disrupt 1, I assume), or preventing to be hit by a Countermagic 1 (if the Create Market acts like a Warding 1) or Countermagic 5 (if all three rune power points of the spell need to be countered) and then have a designated group of scapegoats running away suspiciously, drawing any gullible guards after them. (Similar questions come up for the necessary size of the Detection Blank. But that really belongs into the RQ forum) Anyway, an Issaries market with its magical barrier, alarm and punishment can be overcome by magic or bravado. Any market is a target rich area for thieves, as are the inns and hostels that provide the traders from further away a place to stay. So are the stables where beasts of burden are taken care of, and possibly unloaded. A Gloranthan mugging can be a lot more pleasant than the physical one with the use of Befuddle. Or Sleep - a Chalana Arroy cultist only has to guarantee the physical well-being of her spell's target, the spell description doesn't say anything about belongings, and taking off the shoes may hinder any subsequent pursuit. Public nudity won't raise that much of a heckle in Orlanthi places. Thieves are attracted by places where mobile items of value are concentrated. They follow trade or salary distribution. Rural markets are as good playgrounds. Few of them will have the seasonal protection of a Create Market, and those that do can still be picked on from the fringes or by subversion. Any situation where you can expect rubbing shoulders with strangers offer an opportunity for a thief. Thieves rings tend to operate like miniature Orlanthi clans. Every haul that cannot be eaten right away is brought to the ringleader and then (hopefully) distributed to the members of the ring. Some will be gathered as tribute (bribe) to officials. Maybe as donations to the local Issaries shrine. Ransom is unlikely for entry level members, but higher ups might actually have something like a ransom. Inside a single clan, there isn't much need for a market. Most transactions are done on a tab, or on a favour economy. There may be an exchange of tokens, or some form of book-keeping, but usually these transactions are done before witnesses, which eliminates any need to carry around valuables. These kind of transactions don't attract thieves, although the person walking away with a new possession might. Tokens indicating the exchange of a favour may be targeted by thieves. Such as coinage, or letters of credit. Or simply an item carrying the stamp of a seal. Exchange of tokens of wealth (such as coinage, actual cows or smaller denominations of domestic beasts, or food) will happen between clans. Not every trade needs authorisation by the clan chief, but many trades need at least authorisation by the stead holder or his nominated deputy. Actual personal property isn't that common while you live with your clan or guild. Much of what you carry or wear will be a loan or a lease by your community or your patron. These items may still attract the avarice of others, including thieves. The institution of cattle raid is the expression of one of the Orlanthi principles of property - only those who can maintain their claim on property have said claim. If you cannot ward off a cattle raid, your claim of ownership (or guardianship) was too weak. This view of ownership can be carried over into the theft of stuff other than cattle. But then, what rules are there to stop an angry clansman to enter the chief's house and take all the regalia of the clan for himself, and demand that the clan accept him as the chief?

As the rightful place for Orlanth's Ring on that date would have been the back of the sky, and not the visible side. If the ring had already been in the sky, nobody would have remarked on its sudden appearance. Calling in the ring outside of its appointed date, and then tracing the path Umath took on his invasion of the (then still star-less) sky at a speed significantly higher than the normal steady rise, and leaving the northwest to trail stations across the entire sky was something Minaryth had carefully plotted. But then, what exactly was the purpose of the celestial rite (beyond starting another Temple of the Reaching Moon)? A re-adjustment of the relative (magical) position of the Red Moon to the Temple, so that it would become the focal point for another Silver Shadow? Establishing (another) one of the Eight Sons in the Sky, a warm-up for an even more elaborate Sunstop? What kind of celestial alteration would Tatius have wrought? Tatius may have been a visionary (similar to Delecti, an age earlier) plotting to re-arrange the sky. And while he was deeply immersed in Lunar magic, I am still not convinced that the Lunar Way was what he was working towards. I still think that he was a creature of the Empire rather than the Moon, a Solar fanatic willing to use Lunar magic and even Chaos to re-establish a Greater Dara Happa that never had been. The Red Emperor was a sufficiently solar creature, and past masks had shown that it was possible to inject new portions into his being by switching out Egi. As much as that "Alternate Lunar Empire" thread has already grown, imagine a Lunar Empire triumphant at the dedication of the New Lunar temple in bloodily subdued Sartar, with the Middle Sky pushing out the Middle Air. WHat would happen next? And what would become of Tatius and the Assiday family now the Southern Conquest had been completed? Could Tatius have known of the draconic energies? Could he have plotted to become a new Dragon Sun? Would he have made them his throne? The Dragonrise was an event that shook the whole world. It used the energies that Tatius' magicians had stockpiled over seven years, sacrificing thousands. What would Tatius have unleashed on the world?

Or you keep your distance for the remainder of the spell duration and cast your spell then. Removing Countermagic is easy - cast any spell within or beyond 1 point of the CM total, and the CM spirit spell is gone. CM becomes reusable only if cast with 3 or more points. It is nice on top of a Shield spell, but that costs extra points to avoid the CM effect of the Shield. As for incompatible spells or spells cast over spells already in effect, there are various possible outcomes, depending on the metarules used. Let's say your champion received a Protection 3 seven melee rounds ago, but the fight still drags on, and you want to renew that spell without giving the opposition any opportunity to pelt him with missiles in the few moments (strike ranks) between the spell expiring and the supporter casting the spell anew. Would the replacement spell have to be stronger than the existing spell? Would a Protection 2 cast upon a target with Protection 3 remaining for 2 more melee rounds go to waste completely, or would it be layered under that Protection 3, coming into effect as soon as the 3-point spell expires? Would a Protection 2 with two points of Boost push aside the 3-point spell? Or do all these spells hold onto a specific "hard point" of the target's magical aura, with only one magic able to hold on to that target? Does a spell like Shield offer a hard point outside of that it occupies to attach to the target? If so, can that extra hard point be used to attach another Shield spell? Personally, I don't see how boosting MP do not dissipate if they are not part of the spell structure. (I might allow use of a magic skill yet to be determined to make them part of that structure, at the cost of casting time.) To me, they are a penetration aid, a wave of brute magical force without any duration, with the sole purpose of overloading a Countermagic or Absorption or Reflection effect (or Attract Magic, or...). Regarding different rune pools: A simultaneous casting may be desirable if the caster undergoes an elaborate ceremony to augment the chance of success. For a single roll, the rune used to cast that spell should be the same, but being two deities at the same time is bound to be confusing unless you have the mystical or sorcerous insight that these are only expressions of one shared deeper truth. On the other hand, losing that personal touch may make that information rom a Divination a lot more detached, too. If a caster of rune magic is initiated to more than one deity, she can use common spells from both initiations. Can she combine them? If they can stack in different castings, maybe. If she can split her awareness between the two different runic entities, maybe. You don't usually get common magic as an associate spell, if your cult already has access to that common magic. There are cults with limited access to common rune magic - e.g. spirit cults. In those cases, the caster may be limited to associate magic to cast that common rune magic spell.

Just because the urban Dara Happans have other forms of conveying initiatory status doesn't mean that the horse nomads don't use tattoos. The Berennethtelli tribe of the Heortlings and before that the Vingkotlings who are of Hyaloring descent definitely used tattoos in Harmast's time. The Orgorvaltes - another Vingkotling/Heortling tribe whose founder was a horse rider - or at least their descendants use tattoos, too. While that may be cultural contamination by the Orlanthi they married, let me point out that the master layout for the Orlanthi clan and tribal tattoos copies designs found on ice mummies in Kurgans, i.e. from horse nomads. Remaining with real world examples from Europe, while the chalcolithic Ötztal ice mummy shows tattoos, too, those are of a different style and perhaps "medicinal" in nature (apparently on acupuncture horizons). Beat-Pot Aelwrin is usually depicted without tattoos, but he was enslaved while under-age, so he would not have received any tattoos yet - those would likely be gained in a coming-of-age rite if his tribal culture has tattoos. The illustration of Sartar (identifiable by his personal rune on the back of his hand) and the first Feathered Horse Queen on p.8 of the GM Screen Pack Adventure Book shows the FHQ wearing a Mastery rune on her cheek and wrist. The horse-master of Apple Lane around 1625, Hendroste, wears a set of tattoos similar to those of the Heortlings, though no facial tat (a Harmony rune on the throat, though - p.67). The Grazer encounter illustration on p.70 in The Smoking Ruin might have facial tattoos for the male on the left. Both his companions appear to be unmarked, at least on the skin they are showing. The verdict on tattooing among the horse nomads remains undecided in the available art.

That's how I ruled using the RQ3 description of stacking divine magic. The text as written in RQG offers the possibility of accumulating such effects - but maybe it takes a "The Arming of ..." ritual to allow multiple castings of such spells to actually stack. I wouldn't allow becoming both Orlanth and Storm Bull in a single casting of rune magic unless it is a heroquesting or illumination insight (in the latter case, the die roll would have to be below the illumination score to succeed). Saying that a Shield 3 replaces a Shield 2 opens a potential can of worms. Can a Shield 2 boosted with 3 MP take effect on someone who has Shield 3? Will that later spell displace the Shield 3, or will it be there until the Shield 3 runs out or is dispelled? Having an idea of the meta-rules of magic affecting people or tools would be nice. Does the extra damage from Bladesharp add to the extra damage from Kargan Tor's Blessing? There is no mention of KTB being incompatible with Bladesharp, or even Fireblade. There is little info on whether the effects stack.