Mankcam

I really like the notion of a Pueblo such as Old Oraibi as an inspirational visual reference for Adari. Are there any cultural analogies we could use to portray the indigenous inhabitants? For example, are the Adari village folk similar in appearance or dress to the Ancestral Pueblo People? And are they the same people as the Oasis Folk who reside at the smaller fertile spots like Moonbroth and Pairing Stone? Would ancestral people of Oasisamerica be a good visual analogy here as a point of reference for Oasis Folk, or just the original residents of Adari? I suspect alot of Sartarite and Pavic outlaws and such also reside here alongside the original people - or are they not Oasis Folk at all, are they a different ethnic background altogether? Descendent from Theyalans from the EWF era perhaps?

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And these are the kind of discussions that you rarely see on D&D forums

I think the tribal notion could work for Orlanthi cities. The urban cities of Sartar are not all that large, and the tribal confederations would present themselves as aligned political factions (although not always harmonious). People would probably live in suburbs perhaps defined by these tribal associations. These people would be primarily crafters and traders, with direct links to the rural tribal populations who travel to the settlements for their services. The larger Orlanthi cities are in Esrolia, and I think the Faction idea would be equally important here, perhaps it is even more organised. I could envision it being the same notion with a reverse-focus, having political factions governed by the various Grandmothers, and rural tribal regions affiliated with each of these factions. I totally agree that RQ2 did not define Sartar very well, which was unusual given it's implied importance in the RQ2 setting. Then the portrayal from late RQ3 onwards went in a different direction that was hinted at in the RQ2 products, which is why we have the different interpretations we now have.

I think that Orlanthi society operates on a mixture of barter trade goods & services, which exists alongside coinage. I suspect that this hold true for all regions, with barter playing a larger role in rural regions ( which accounts for most of the Orlanthi). However we do know that coins are minted for a measure of value between the various cults and guilds (hence why they are called 'silver guilders'), and as such this would carry over into day-to-day life, more so in the citadels. I believe that some of the officials of the Trade Ring may provide business investment services at Issaries temples in the largest urbanised settlements such as Boldhome, Jonstown, Clearwine, etc. I envision that the Trade Ring would invest in particular business opportunities for a direct share in the profits, so they are considered shareholders in that business venture. I think the concept of open loans (as it exists in the modern world) would be a rare notion in this setting, although I guess that the Trade Ring would occasionally make exceptions. Some experienced traders (who are independent of the Trade Rings, yet still Priests of Issaries) may operate in a similar fashion to modern day brokers, perhaps seeking favours in payment rather than direct cash back from investments (although that would also likely be appreciated). A good example of this is Gringle Goodsell from Apple Lane. In the more recent HQ Sartar books it describes Gringle as having the capacity to sometimes provide open credit loans for those who seek him; inferring that this is an uncommon opportunity to do so, external to the monopoly of the Trade Rings. I think that one's reputation may often have an impact on things like getting loans or basic services provided, so Status itself should not be ruled out as another form of currency in such a society. Also the notion of Orlanthi Hospitality could be further extended to include a system of Favours, which would also translate itself into a currency of services at times.

Yes, and I also read that the term Keltoi was a derivation of the name of a Nymph whose union with a demi-god (?Heracles) was the origin of the people living in the northern wilderness beyond Greece. The Greeks may have used in a derogatory fashion to describe the Persians as well, hence the 'uncivilised' negative concotations. So it gained a meaning that equates to 'uncouth other'. I guess my point is that the word 'Barbarian' is derived from these meanings, and really is a problematic term when describing a cultural background due to its subjective context.

Interesting...

Well it wasn't clear in RQ2, but yes I think some of the more isolated rural and rugged Sartarite clans could certainly fit the description of 'Barbarians'. However the vast majority of Orlanthi villages and steads would be from the Peasant background. Logically the larger the settlement, the larger the numbers of Townsman and Noble backgrounds. The more rudimentary one's background, the more relevant the Barbarian background would be. Remember you rolled background first in RQ2, then worked out where you were more likely to be from after that. So if you rolled a Barbarian background, it was very unlikely you grew up in Boldhome. Even if you were from a small agricultural village like Apple Lane, it would be unlikely that the Barbarian background would be relevant. The majority of people here would fit the Peasant background, with maybe the Blacksmith, Tin Inn publican, and possibly the Sheriff fitting the Townsman background; Gringle possibly presented himself as a Poor Noble. However an Orlanthi from an isolated Far Point clan north of Alda-Chur may possibly be more appropriate to be considered a 'Foot Barbarian', or an Orlanthi Pol-Joni raider could be a 'Mounted Barbarian' - they were even in the region of the aptly named Barbarian Town. So it is possible that the more isolated the location of origin, the more likely the background of Barbarian may be relevant. Perhaps Barbarian would be a relevant background not only for Orlanthi from geographically isolated clans, but perhaps also for those from socially alienated clans. An example of this could be if you play a character who grew up amongst a roving band of outlawed Sararite rebels, as the background of Barbarian could easily work well with this concept. I guess in RQ2 it was not so much a Cultural background, it was more like a Social Class background. This was where RQ3 significantly deviated in regards to character generation and background. However some cultures were definitely more dominated by the Barbarian background - eg: Praxians, Bazalorings, Grazelanders, Tusk-Riders, etc, whereas in other ethnic backgrounds (Orlanthi, for example) it may have only pertained to those from very isolated or alienated origins. So yes by this reasoning you could have Orlanthi barbarians, although I don't think that it pertained to a large number of Orlanthi. Certainly not enough to redefine the entire Orlanthi culture as 'Barbarian', which is what the RQ3 rules did.

Actually I realised I was wrong in that last post, and I was about to edit it, but you replied before I could amend it. My fault RQ2 and RQ3 were pretty different in this regard. In RQ3 the Orlanthi are clearly described as being Barbarians, and thus use the Barbarian Character Background. This was quite different to RQ2 in hindsight, where 'Barbarian' was a random background on the Char Gen Table. In the core book it wasn't clear who this was pertaining to, but from the RQ2 supplements it seemed that the Mounted Barbarian background was for Praxians, and the Foot Barbarian background was good for Balazaring clansfolk. The other more urban cultures did not seem to fit the picture of Barbarian, they would just be Peasant, Townsman, or Noble; the more rural settlements would have a larger Peasant focus, but they were not described as Barbarians. This seemed to pertain to most of the cultures described, such Sartarites, the Balazaring Citadels, Pavasites, etc. So the Orlanthi of RQ2 did not feel particularly 'Barbarian'. However it was not all clearly explained at the time, and we had to work with what we had. But I remember being a little surprised when I discovered that Orlanthi were objectively presented as Barbarians in the RQ3 backgrounds. Given that 'barbarian' is a translation from the ancient greek word 'Keltoi' (obscure, other, uncivilised), widely used in a derogatory fashion by the Romans, it really is too subjective to use to describe many socieocultural intricacies. If RQ3 had gone with the term 'Rudimentary' instead of 'Barbarian' it may have been better. However even this may have been problematic at times, but at least it is slightly more objective. I'm glad the term 'Barbarian' is being dropped as an objective measure of culture in the next version of RQ.

Well, I remembered...

All this stems of course from the Anglo-Saxon Celtic/Norse depictions of Orlanthi from the late RQ3 era up until recent years. As well as the fact that they were actually a 'Barbarian' culture in terms of the RQ3 character generation process. Even the RQ3 Glorantha Genertela Box objectively presented them as being from 'The Barbarian Belt'. If this had been presented as a Pelorian slur, or even as a reference stemming from Kralori or Malkioni phrases then that would have been much better, rather than the objective way it was presented as describing the Orlanthi. It is easy to see why these references still show up, as this is the how Orlanthi were portrayed since the late 1980s until recent times. Fanzines perpetuated the portrayal, and Hero Wars / HQ1 were certainly on board with it in terms of artwork. I quite like Celts, Saxons, and Vikings; but these days that is what I will run Mythras for with their Mythic Britain setting. For Glorantha I prefer the more Bronze Age atmosphere as it feels more in line with what was hinted at back in RQ2. The G2G really brought the Bronze Age flavour back. Horses For Courses, but personally I do find real-world analogies a useful starting point when describing fantasy cultures. Google Images comes in very handy. I think images of the real-world influences help form a mental picture quite quickly, and you can make setting specific changes from there. So for my troupe I am quickly summing up the Theyalans as a 'Mycenaean Age' style culture. I would probably use Minoans as a base influence for Esrolians, and use a mish mash of Achaean and Thracian influences for Sartarites. The artwork from the G2G and Red Cow books certainly supports this flavour for the Sartarites. These are broad strokes however, but the players get the idea from the start, and it certainly does not portray the Theyalans as being 'barbarians'. In RQ2 the term 'barbarian' was more commonly used as a reference towards the Praxians rather than the Sartarites, Pavasites, Tarshites, or any of the Theyalan cultures.

I already mentioned RoH earlier in this thread (11th of March) Just sayin'

I'm sure if the new RuneQuest is anything like HeroQuest Glorantha then the core rules will contain a good intro to the setting, and likely to fuse character generation directly to the setting like HeroQuest does in the Sartar and Pavis books. Getting back to topic, for me personally my favourite Call Of Cthulhu rules has been the CoC 3E hardcover book produced by Games Workshop in the 1980s. It had smooth mechanics, and a low pulpy/weird horror atmosphere. It was great having everything contained in an attractive hardcover book rather than a box, and the artwork was also great, with several full-colour plates. Most of the CoC editions since then had a more serious approach to both the rules, setting, tone, and presentation; with hardly any changes in game mechanics. This was up until CoC 7E, and this current edition certainly captures much of the flavour that originally interested me. Most of the rules refinements enhance the game, rather than add 'rule-bloat'. CoC 7E is also 95% compatible with all the previous supplements, which doesn't make my extensive library obsolete. This has always been a strength of the game line since it's inception, although I was concerned that this time there would be compatibility issues. This is certainly not the case, and Chaosium gets my respect for doing this. The company has treated it's fan base with dignity and respect, a quality that should be admired in any business model. CoC 7E is now my preferred edition of the game, especially with the official Pulp Cthulhu options which I can use if need be. If I had to cut back on books in my bookshelf, then CoC 7E will definitely remain, sitting nicely alongside my old hardcover Games Workshop CoC 3E book. As far as Call of Cthulhu goes, I can take or leave the other editions.

I can pretty much run a HQ supplement with RQ rules no dramas, although the portrayal of magic can sometimes be difficult. I can perhaps see a case for having system-less setting books, but system-specific scenario books.

I have heard this previously mentioned and I think it is a great idea! Not only would this allow GM flexibility with preferred game mechanics (RQ, HQ, D20 13th Age), it also allows GMs from completely external systems to tinker with their own games using Glorantha as a setting. As an example, I have a good friend who backed the G2G who would use his preferred system, HARP Fantasy, and play it in Glorantha. I personally prefer RQ, but buy any HQ supplements to expand my Gloranthan library. In many ways I would prefer a set of system-less setting and scenario books, with pdf resources that adapt them to particular rule sets. I definately would see this as a way forward for Glorantha. The interest in the G2G demonstrates that the setting can exist independently from a defined set of rpg mechanics.

Yeah you're totally right of course, I think I was just stoking the fire when I posted that comment

Except the Theylans are not actually 'barbarians' anymore, although they are probably referred as such by Pelorians. Just sayin'...

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Nope, I'm a kickstarter backer in Australia and mine hasn't shown up yet. However we were warned that it would take a while to get down here, so I'm not overly concerned yet. Will be a good read when it finally does arrive!

So jealous, I am hanging out for these rules - have fun!

and that's pretty much as a GM how I'ld describe it to the PCs as well, unless they have obscure Grey Sage scrolls or rare God Learner texts to help them learn lost lore. Gotta keep that sense of mystery alive!

Great material in this post Jeff, it showed up just as I was referencing the previous one. I like the idea of the Vingoktling culture as an ancient forerunner to the current Theylans culture. Gives a lot of weight to the setting, reminds me a bit of what Tolkien did with Middle Earth, describing scenery occasionally littered with ancient ruins of forgotten earlier empires and such; it really evoked a sense of time having passed and things not being static. Really made the world seem real, which is what you have done here. I need to read much more about the Vingotlings; I find the cyclopean walls and ancient spiral towers to be pretty intriguing. These 'info dumps' that occasionally turn up here in these forums are really great, thanks for posting

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Well I feel that some Nordic references appear to be mixed in the descriptions and tales of the Theylan deities, but it may be just how I interpreted it, given that I also have some texts on Nordic mythology. Another example of art being in the eye of the beholder I guess. I do see the Aegean references as being much more prominent however. The Vedic stuff not so much with the Theylans, but possibly more with the Malkioni. I based much of my views primarily from what I have read in The Cult Compedium (Cults of Prax & Cults of Terror), and also from a mix of things from the G2G, RQ3 Gods of Glorantha, as well as HeroWars & HeroQuest Sartar books. I do see what Jeff means regarding the Nordic references possibly 'bringing baggage'- it could easily evoke too much of a Celtic/Saxon/Viking flavour that used to influence many portrayals of Orlanthi prior to the release of the G2G. The more recent depictions of Theylans do fit much better with the hints that were originally gleaned way back during the RQ2 era supplements, so I'm glad it has all gone back down this path. I will be very interested in seeing some new literature on Gloranthan mythology, it may alter some of my earlier views.

I agree with the advice in the post, although I tend to interpret the more recent portrayals of Theylans in The Guide To Glorantha and HeroQuest (HQG and HQ Red Cow) as an analogy for Mycenean Age people. Esrolians would have a heavy Minoan flavour, whilst Sartarites have a more Myceanaen Achaean & Thracian flavour especially in urban centres. The rural villagers may be more rudimentary, possibly less Achaean and more a mix of Thracian and Ancient Celt (La Tene Period has been previously suggested). Perhaps you could add a touch of Scythian elements to Thracian if you want the Tarshites to feel different to Sartarites, but I feel that a solid Myceanaen foundation seems to be the core analogy for how most Theylan populations are now portrayed. Of course, they are not Mycenaean clones, but the core influences are certainly there. So putting those references into a search engine should throw up a range of images to be influenced by. I tend to think of the Theylan pantheon as a cross between the ancient Aegean deities and early dark age Nordic mythology, it definately has elements of both. Pavis and Prax is a great place to set adventures in. I envision New Pavis looking like a small version of biblical-era Jerusalem, with Pavisites being Thracian-style citizens (Theylan origin) , and Lunar garrisons having a Sumerian-Assyrian-Roman flavour (Pelorian origin). The wild frontier tropes can really play out here in Pavis and in Prax, you could easily convert any dungeon delve sceanrio from D&D and retrap it for the ruins of the old Pavis city-state (The Big Rubble). As well as this you can also retrap any old raw Wild West film as a scenario plot, moving the action to Pavis or the wilds of Prax. Such a rich setting to start playing in. Small enough not to be part of the meta-setting, yet full of opportunities to adventure in for several years!