Sir_Godspeed

I really liked that publication, I forget where it's from, it might be an appendix to King of Sartar, where you have texts from different cultures where an elder explains their way of life to a younger member. It's a very nice way of getting into the mindset and worldview of those cultures.

Do we know if Praxians use peyote? It's bit of a tangent to addiction in itself, but I just got to think about it.

This is interesting. Would we say that mammals may be a result of Hykim/Mikyh (or a descendant) pairing in some way with Umath (maybe in a beast-aspect?). I wonder how this influences the presence/identity of Hsunchen. What made it so that some mammal-paired people ended up as Hsunchen, and others as Storm people pastoralists? It's the Golden Age, so the difference between humans and animals still is relatively fluid, I suppose, if not as fluid as the Green Age. It's an interesting parallel to how in Time so many Hsunchen have become Orlanthi, though. Moreso, it does explain to some degree the various wandering people in different directions - although this is the God Time, so space and distance isn't a huge issue anyways. I guess this interpretation would also mean that the Praxians were (a) people of Storm Bull, who were in some sense "adopted" or submitted to the rule of Genert in his garden, as opposed to the other way around. I'm not entirely sure how I feel about it. I always got the impression that the pastoralism was a Storm Age/Darkness innovation for the Praxians, after Genert's death forced them to organize into eater and eaten, a major feat achieved by Waha. I suppose you could argue that at the point of downwards migration, none of the storm peoples, neither Praxians nor Orlanth's kin had yet really organized into "eater and eaten" the way we think of pastoralists now, given that so many of their gods and godesses were (as literally as the God Time permits) food animals. This is a major thing for me. Entekos' position and ancestry has always fascinated me, but making her a sister of Umath is kind of baffling, since it means that the creation of Storm/Air was not a one-off event, but occured twice. Or maybe they're twins in some sense. Maybe Umath and Entekos are the results of two Golden Age versions of events that got mashed together with the Compromise. Lots of stuff to think about.

Orlanth Suavement, whose torc is in the shape of a turtleneck sweater.

What about all the relatively nameless air elementals around? Speaking of which, how does theism explain elementals in general? So he had some following at least, if not a people. A band of loyal co-adventurers?

Maybe Crom is the very reason he can start off with all those high stats though. Heck, maybe he's not really a god in Glorantha, but some kind of cultural echo of Vadrus. ("God's dead, better manage ourselves now!")

So, after the roaring success of my Earth People thread (the responses to which I'm still very thankful for), I've decided to look into another one of the wider areas I've been thinking about: the descendants of Umath and their respective followers. For simplicity's sake, I've lumped them together as "Para-Orlanthi", but just "Storm peoples" work as well. To start off, Umath, the Primal Storm was begat by a union between Sky and Earth, and claimed a realm for himself, the Middle Air, with violence. He was later killed or maimed and chained, essentially leaving him out of the rest of Gloranthan mythology. Not to dwell on basic mythology here, just sort of setting up the threads I want to follow. Before he was brought down, he seems to have begot several descendants with various entities, most famously Orlanth with Kero Fin. He and his associated deities, in conjunction with allied Earth deities, would give rise to the Orlanthi as we know them today. However, this wasn't always the situation, and this is sort of what I'm looking into. Below I'm going to go through some of the stories and events I know about. They are not meant to be exhaustive (but feel free to add to it and help enlighten me/the question), but sort of put some things into perspective. I'm going to keep in mind that all of them have a source, and few can be seen as objectively true or even particularly reliable, but I don't have the patience to mention that after every story, so I'm just putting up this disclaimer. To start off, did Umath himself ever gather about him followers beyond the scope of maybe a band of heroes, ie. something that could feasibly be called a "people", whether clan or tribe? In short, was there were a "Primal Storm"-people? For his descendants, I'm aware that Vadrus had his "Vadrudings", or "Hurt Everything Clan", which besides being featured in (Theyalan) Orlanthi mythology, are also present in Six Ages to a small extent, and seem to be involved in the creation of either the Danmalstani in general or the Waertagi specifically through Aerlit. I'm also aware that Vadrus had some run-ins with draconic entities, and may have released a Heler-equivalent of some kind (not sure how this tale relates to the near-identical take featuring Orlanth). Any information about how the Vadrudings were organized or who they were would be excellent. I'd inquire about their female members as well, however everything I know about them seem to indicate that many of them were probably abducted and held against their will. Given the Piscoi's origin from raped Niiads, and the emphasis on Aerlit's exceptionality in seeking consent, it seems likely to me that the Vadrudings stood for some of, if not all, of the Piscoi storm ancestry. The Dara Happans seem to have included him as one of two prime deities of the group they labelled the "Erlandings" (with Erlandus being Orlanth), although whether these constitute a separate storm people, or were just one of several migrations I have no idea. In Heortling myths, he is active seemingly even before Orlanth (such as in the myth of the First Ring), perhaps indicating he is an older brother (that story is pretty out there in general though, so who knows). We're also told Vadrus fathered a daughter called Molanni, the goddess of Still Air. To me, this seemed like a way for the Orlanthi to account for Entekos, the goddess of "Good Air", who is an air deity of considerable age and notability in Pelanda and later, Peloria as a whole, but is seemingly entirely absent in the actual Air peoples' stories. This was strengthened by her being mentioned as a traitor. However, since she is mentioned by name in the Wedding Contest for Yelm, and contrasted with Dendara (the other possible Entekos-mask/equivalent) I'm not sure how plausible that is. I'm more tempted to see Entekos as a direct daughter of Umath now, but that's pure speculation on my part. In the Gods War, Vadrus was killed by Chaos, and essentially rendered null and void, beyond reach, thus presumably also ending the Vadrudings as a people unified under his rule, if they could ever be said to have been thus. However, before this, Vadrus was, after an attack on Barntar, defeated by Orlanth, and we're told that Valind was given his father's properties. That's the Glacier of course, which seems to me to imply that Vadrus may have already personified winter winds, however this is not necessarily true, it may have been a novel project started by Valind after his father's disgrace. Curiously, I thought Himile might've been Valind's mother, but Himile is stated as a male, and merely on "good terms" with the god of cold. We know Ice trolls inhabit the glacier, but I assume some kind of semi-demigod people of Storm descent inhabit it as well. Do have any canon mentioned of anything along the lines of "Valindings"? Valind's son, Ygg, is the first case were I can find a clearly stated, presently-extant people of Vadrudi descent. The Yggites reside on the Ygg islands, and are mostly famous for their Wolf Pirates. Most fan interpretations of them I've seen seem to see them as a more brutal and violent version of Heortlings, essentially. To me, it would be interesting to see how their interpretation of mythological events differ. Heortlings see Vadrus as an overly violent bully, Valind as a coward, and Ygg as a nuisance, it seems. Conversely, I could for example see the Yggites viewing Vadrus' death as a courageous sacrifice to protect his kin (or refusing to step down from a challenge, no matter the odds), as opposed to the Heortling view that he was just trying to get Wakboth's power. The Yggites are also a great deal more maritime, compared to their mostly landlocked Orlanthi cousins, as befits the people of the Sea Storm. The wiki seems to use "Vadrudi" as a collective term for all Storm-worshipping people of Fronela (including the Orlanthi Jonatelans), but I'm not sure if that's a very accurate and descriptive usage. Personally I'd limit it to whichever culture can seem to be traced back to, or continue to practice, Vadrus-derived social forms or beliefs, such as, presumably, the Yggites. We also have other children of Vadrus, such as Iphanna and Gagarth, but I've never seen any actual peoples being associated with them, so I will pass by them in silence and leave any inferences about hypothetical mist-people or the Wild Hunt to others. Now, moving on to another son of Umath (EDIT: he seems to only sometimes be ascribed a son of Umath, I must admit I just assumed it. Still, he's a Storm deity, so I'll leave him here.), I'm looking at Ragnaglar. He is most known to me, prior to creating the Unholy Trio, through the Initiation story where it is heavily implied that he is driven mad in the Sex Pit, and in the Descent from the Mountain, where he is accompanied by the Great Goat. I'm not sure if it is Ragnaglar himself who is totemic to the goats, or if the Great Goat is Thed, much like the Great Cow is essentially Uralda , the totemic entity/beast mother of cattle - however it's clear that goats are taboo for the Orlanthi due to their association with him, and that the Broos, who by default are goat-like, are his "children" in some sense. From what I gather, the new Bestiary has retconned their origin from the "Primal Rape" of Thed to a previously existing race of goatmen who followed their ancestor deities, Ragnaglar, Thed and their "adopted" mother Mallia into Chaos-worship. In that sense, I suppose that if there ever was a people we could call the "Ragnaglarings", it would be the Broos. I don't have too much else to say about that, really, aside from that I wonder if this means some Broos can reconnect with some Storm-heritage, or if it's been burnt away by Chaos. Would make for a pretty out-there Heroquest for an enlightened Broo or something (or even leading to Old Wind-style enlightenment, as opposed to Lunar/Nysalorean style)(Addendum: Aside from the Storm association, his goat-association is an interesting parallel to Urox, both being animal-associated, and having a massive duel on either side of the line of Chaos worship.) I'm going to pass Humakt by, since it seems he explicitly had no children or amassed no conventional clan or people, aside from, allegorically at least, Arkat (in his Humakti aspect) within Time. He seems to be a pretty orthodox and integrated aspect of the Orlanthi proper. I'm tempted to say the same for Urox, but throughout the time I've been here, people have mentioned the presence of several Storm people invasions across the world, from the Erlandings, Ram People and Andam horde in Peloria, to the Desero Horse, worshipping the storm god Baraku who tried to cross the Fense in Pamaltela, and who knows elsewhere. Some have raised the possibility that these were Uroxi, or Storm people associated especially with him. I'm also tempted to think of the currently-isolated people of Charg. More importantly, it seems to me, is Urox, or Storm Bull's role as a primal ancestor of the Praxians. Now, the Praxians aren't really Storm People (although they acknowledge various different roles for storms in Prax and the Wastelands), but they are Waha's people, and Waha is Storm Bull/Urox's son, unless this is a later syncretization and innovation. Importantly though, Urox isn't just the ancestor of the humans there, but also the herd animals. There seems to be a reoccurring theme of Horned Storm-patriarchs, such as with the ordeeds of the Andam Horde (with Varnaval the Shepherd King as their "horned patriarch", possibly), Urox of Prax and all its myriad herd beasts, and possibly even Ragnaglar and goats/broos. Heck, with the usage of the term "Rams" from a DH perspective and in Six Ages for Storm people in general and Vingkotlings in particular, and Orlanth's frequent depiction with coiled ram horns, as well as one of his sons, Voriof, being depicted as a literal ram, this seems to be a trend continued across the board. It also ties into the idea that mammals were a new introduction to a previously reptilian and avian surface world. Not sure what the many mammalian Hsunchen would say to that, but that's a matter for another time. Kolat is another of Umath's sons, the Spirit Father. The only "people" I've seen overly associated with him, aside from non-hereditary shamans who are otherwise a part of mainstream Orlanthi society are the Wind Children. Their ancestry eludes me, as they are also noted to worship Orlanth himself. Their wings make me think of Sky-descent as well, but I'm wary of taking such things too literally. Either way, it would be cool to see some connection there. From what I understand, Kolatings aren't celibate, but I could be wrong. I'm also not sure if Kolat's spirits can be seen as his "descendants" or "people" in any meaningful way. So, that's about it, as far as I've read and seen so far, and any thoughts about this is very welcome. Anyone I've neglected? Other cultures perspective on Storm peoples? I've not gone into mainstream Orlanthi (Theyalan, Heortling, Talastaring, Alakoring, etc.) pantheons or peoples, since that would be like ten times what I've written already.

This is a pretty old thread, so forgive me for threadomancy, but I was wondering regarding the accumulation of air under the seas: is there any noted interaction between Triolini and Blue Elves? The Aldryami pantheon and mythology we see is heavily land-biased, but presumably water-based plants have been around for nearly as long. Would it be possible for them to be "oxygen traders" for underwater settlements?

You're right, I underestimated the size of the Eurasian lynx (which is weird, since I've seen quite a few of them at a local zoo). They are indeed quite hefty, being comparable to a German shepherd at the shoulders.

It's not really about realism, but verisimillitude. Most people don't understand the principles behind wing-areal and lift vs. mass, and few also understand the biological principles behind spiracles and osmosis. And even if you know, it's pretty easy to just ignore. Most people can kinda see the image of a schäfer-sized stoat-like animal trying to squeeze through a gap in some joinery to get at a small, poisonous snake slithering away, though, and find it jarring. Or conversely, a little ferret-thing running around a herd of 30+ sheep and guiding them. I assume that's why Greg didn't go with a housecat-sized alynx, or even a lynx-sized one. I mean, we're just spitballing here, so anything goes, just putting my own logic out there.

I'm just saying that they seemingly scaled up the lynx to be able to do a dog's job, but scaling up a mongoose to do that would also make it less efficient at taking out snakes, because being small and long-ish is a good shape for that sort of duty. It's what allows a lot of mustelids (like ferrets, stoats, etc.) to live in piles of rocks and weed out predatory snakes that are after their young as well. YGWW. EDIT: I forgot to mention, that if anyone wants a massive mongoose, there is there Ichneumon, from medieval European bestiaries. Basically a souped up version that goes after dragons and crocodiles rather than ordinary serpents. Could be interesting to have it as a kind of mongoose demigod or Hscunchen spirit, that hangs out in the waterways of far western Pamaltela, maybe.

So, I just googled a bit about this, and I came across a Talk page on the wiki, where someone was talking about Serid Yarkassa and a hero called Amphibos. They were unable to find a literary reference for the character, and then said it was more of an inference. This conversation was from 2011. So, I guess I'm wondering, is there a reference for Amphibos anywhere? Sounds like a pretty interesting character.

Not sure how relevant, but most waves in RW are made from surface winds, so there is a very literal interaction between air and water. Makes we think of how Heimdall had "nine winnow mothers". Maybe there's some wave-nymphs who are either Orlanth's lovers or daughters?

But shadow cats fulfill more tasks than hunting vermin, right? I was of the impression that they use them in every niche dogs are used, so guard cats, sheep herding cats, hunting parties, etc. Those aren't really niches that can be filled by a mongoose (mostly because they're pretty small). So you either keep the shadowcats in some aspects, or you substitute them with some other animal, like the dogs or swine mentioned above.

Pigs are highly intelligent, and while adult males aren't necessarily very sociable, they're at least more easy to train that RW cats of any stripe, so honestly I think that sounds like a cool idea. I guess it might conflict with using pigs as general livestock though, unless we're talking noticeably different breeds. I like the idea of mongooses too. Not too useful for herding, but some story about each household having a pet mongoose to keep out venomous animals sounds interesting. Maybe they blended with an indigenous mongoose Hsunchen people at some point during the settlement. Pure speculation, of course, but fun.

The Caladralanders come to mind too - but their reason for not plowing is quite different from that of the ducks, I imagine. But still, maybe they've got some horticulturalist god? They have an ancestor hero, after all. Probably not the easiest to transplant across vast distances, I don't quite know.

Given this story, I'm reminded that "getting horns" is an expression for being cuckolded in many languages. I wouldn't normally have seen it as relevant, but... well.

Maybe, but his is a different kind of slumbering seed: a domesticated agricultural cereal. Elves looking for reforestation might not see him as a relevant deity.

What a story, Mark.

To me, it seems that Baroshi has elements of Vinga, Babeester Gor and even Storm Bull. From the one myth we have of him, he avenges his parents, protects a holy Earth site, and defeats Chaos. His identity as a barley seed and fairly defensive/protective nature makes me wonder if maybe his myth might hold secrets to protecting granaries full of seeds for planting next spring. He very much seems like a "god in waiting", down there in his mother's old earth temple.

Ah, gotcha, thanks. Isn't the Pole Star the center of the *rotation* of the sky dome, and wouldn't this be slightly off-tilt? I'll admit my knowledge of this is sketchy.

Is the zenith a literal, physical place? I know that the Mostal want to "readjust" the sky dome, but that's about what I know about that topic. Is it at the same place as the Pole Star, or at the current "zenith" of the sky dome?

Interesting! So a bit of a case of creative Chinese whispers, as it were. Thanks for the explanation.

Speaking of "Those names", I was quite amused to find a place named after the Coromandel - ie. the southeastern coast of India opposite Sri Lanka. Not sure what caused the borrowing beyond the name sounding good. I can attest that the real Coromandel is anything but windy and subarctic.

Ah, that's where I had the term Old Earth religion from, thanks! I've just recently been reading HHP, so it seemed familiar. It's not in the Guide, but the general gist is the same.