Sir_Godspeed

I was thinking more of hands, feet and face over beards, as the extremities of travel, touch and observation, but it's largely speculative and just suggestions for players anyway. A wealthy family may have a slave wash their guest's feet before they are allowed any further then the outer courtyard. In a poor family, the female head of the family, or a daughter, might offer to do this for an honored higher-ranking guest (although if the social rank is too different, it's likely they wouldn't be entering a lower-class domicile to begin with), and a low class person visiting another low class person's house might just take a ladle from a pot and splash a bit on each foot for propriety's sake. Removal of footwear might also simply be enough, if such a thing is used. I admit I assumed non-hostility, as the point of giving enemies hospitality is a bit moot. Hospitality to enemies would be a parley or some other extraordinary occasion (like receiving an envoy), imho outside the scope of a discussion on ordinary hospitality practices. For more low-scale conflicts (feuding families, or families just quarreling), the refusal to offer ordinary hospitality rites might be all they need to do to initiate or make their quarrel public. Scandalous, I'm sure - although exactly WHO turns out to be the humiliated part is probably up for debate (being a bad host isn't good PR either, as much as it probably stings to get thrown out of a rival's house/yard). Fair dues on the presentation of drink though. It may or may not be considered essential: some cultures see the presentation of victuals or even food as preceding almost anything else (not necessarily as a show of friendship, but also as a show of superiority), while for others it is something only done with confirmed friendlies after formal introductions and an affirmation of the host-guest contract. Cleansing may also be done with ash (which can be thematically tied to Fire, if you want to play up the Cultic/Runic aspect), which with its small particle size is useful for removing surface grime (like sweat, dirt, etc.), although it will in turn need to be removed - with water or a scraper of some kind. Oil will also have to be scraped off, as the Romans did before entering the baths with a strigil.

As Joerg mentioned above, given the highly stratified structure of DH society, the answer is probably less straightforward than with Orlanthi. I would suppose, however, that it might be common to offer visitors, a) the ability to wash themselves in some manner, with the possible addendum that it is expected for them to accept this wash (this seems in line with Dh aristocratic obsessions with cleanliness, if not Lodrili ones) and possibly b) some ritually significant drink, either wine or whatever is socially appropriate/feasible.

Interesting! But not entirely unexpected - given that the sea deities are defined to a large degree by being hermaphroditic or genderfluid, which is expounded upon to some degree in the new Sourcebook. The Green age, with Gata emerging from Saramak/Ssramak and her subsequent begetting of Genert and Pamalt may be the birth of this dichotomy you speak. Maybe Aether versus Gata are better candidates. Maybe the conceptual split of the Great Horned Serpent into Hykim and Mikyh is another. Who knows - food for thought at any rate. I do wonder what Heler's cosmological role/place was in the grand scheme of things before he was integrated into the Orlanthi pantheon and aligned with Air by becoming the god of rain, though (or atmospheric waters, as it were). Answering my above question - albeit vaguely. All right, keep your secrets then. A Black Age would be a hypothetical primordial Darkness Elemental age preceding the Blue Age of waters, then? (As opposed to the Darkness after the killing of the Sun immediately preceding Time). So, does this mean that darkness and water emerged at the same time, or something else? Is this the same era where Draconic activity is at its most vigorous? The primordial sea deities are so often described as dragons, for one thing, and draconic origin stories seem to coincide with the origin stories of other pantheons (cosmic eggs, self-duplication, conquest-of-Other-turned-ally, Emanationism, etc.) Interesting that these Darkness deities, supposedly remnants of an age preceding sexual dichotomy are so clearly sex-identified in modern Troll religion. An innovation that happened after they emerged from Wonderhome, perhaps? Did something happen to Kyger the moment she stepped on Gata's upperside, or is this mono-sexual identity another "wound" from Chaos as with Heler? Interesting stuff, nonetheless.

This isn't too specific for the Rubble, but Santa makes me think of a resurrected Varnaval the Shepherd King flying around on a chariot drawn by eight Ordeeds.

Slang isn't limited to teens, as mentioned above. Professional jargon is a type of slang, like when carpenters refer to a jigsaw as a "rat's ass" (in Norwegian at least. ). The line between slang and just a dialect or local expression is a vague one, though. And once you start putting slang into poetry, it suddenly becomes kennings and metaphors.

I kinda like the idea of the Red Moon at least being partially a long built-up smack back at Dara Happan patriarchy and chauvinism. I mean, clearly not JUST that, and clearly it's gone far, far beyond that - but certainly it can be seen as a very useful source of pent-up power and alternative knowledge - not to mention alternative means of proselytizing, communication and finance early on. The Provarian Age strikes back, except it's changed and embittered.

Zorani flyting is reknowned for its highly creative take-downs, death-threats and glorious cacophony. Well, either that, or Troll music would seem cacophonous and unappealing (or, conversely, just boring droning) to humans, but be perceived as a complex and laudable skill among trolls. Let's not forget that Death Metal is a thing in real life, and it can produce similar results in fans and detractors. Sea Trolls are a thing, and sound travels farther underwater, so I guess this is pretty possible.

Now THAT is a moment I'd like to see covered in some sense. My mind immediately went to some "high drama" moment when both Vadel and Viymorn went into the deepest recesses of the Underworld, but only Vadel came out, with new and transformative insights. The Vadeli might even celebrate the patricide that is implied.

Well, that certainly adds credence to Tolat/Alkor* as fertility (or rather, *virility*) deities in some sense - which the whole Tolat, Blue moon thread which was resurrected a bit earlier discussed in depth. (*But possibly not Shargash, as I've come to understand.)

I haven't seen anything to the contrary, so... yes? Presumably there's something about the moon there in some of the older cultures. Earth probably has some important myths. There may also be connections to Hykimi traditions. Maybe someone knows if there's anything in the Esrolia book on this? I can't off the top of my head remember whether the Entekosiad mentions it, though it would make sense if it did, as a major gynocentric text.

I agree with most of what davecake said. They are, from my impression, pretty much the closest you get to an utterly irredeemably evil race of humans in Glorantha. This does sound plausible, and you bring up some good points about caste law predating many of the bad stuff humans would later have to face - however I'm not sure if I agree with the assesment that the Brithini follow the spirit of the law. Everything I've read about them has presented them as rules-lawyers and sticklers for literate interpretations themselves - hence why they still wear Ice Age clothing even in subtropic conditions to fulfill zzaburite caste conditions and such. I would rather argue that the Vadeli either discovered or realized *something* in their journeys in the world, something that would forever alter their caste laws - or indeed implement them differently. Perhaps it goes even back to Viymorn himself: the Six Original Peoples each having their own endemic caste laws, with only the Brithini (Enrovalini) and possibly the Waertagi having survived, and us only knowing the Brithini caste laws (to my knowledge). Or maybe they discovered or deduced some amoral aspect of one of Malkion's stages, some mental state or logical "gotcha!" about the nature of the world that allows them, or even compels them perhaps (through self-interest, not genuine compulsion as such), to do all these horrible things. I don't have a lot to present as evidence, it just feels thematically consistent with them as traveling out form Danmalastan, and returning altered, changed, and very, very wrong. As I said above, interesting points. This is clever, I like it. "TRIGGERED BRITHINI OWNED WITH FACTS AND LOGIC!" They are the very model of affable psycopaths: willing to play along with social customs and mimick ideas of conscience and remorse if it serves them, like a race of Hannibal Lecters. Well, the Browns anyway: the Reds are probably more like classical sociopaths: they don't give a toss about you, and they also don't care whether you know or not.

Same here. Did a bit of a double-take.

As far as Hero Wars possibilities go, this one is pretty positive!

On a grander, more formalized scale, that's the logic behind the Mandate of Heaven as well. EDIT: Speaking of fate: what is interesting is that both the ancient Greeks and the Old Norse stories about heroes tended to have downer endings, often. It wasn't so much that they were deliberately negative, but rather a sort of admission that a life time of adventuring, fighting and raiding builds up enemies and you're almost bound to get some powerful enemies, among them possibly gods. Life was hard and facing death was just how things went. In retrospect, it's honestly quite refreshing to see how nuanced they are about the ends of heroes when compared to our modern day obsession with giving action heroes happy endings. So it's not just that doing the wrong thing would anger the gods, but also that by doing great deeds, pissing off some deity was almost a given, and there was always a price to pay for having a heroic destiny.

No joke, that sounds like an amazing combat ability, or ambush tactic.

1st Century is pretty late though - I guess I forgot that Western Genertela is based more on the late Classical period rather than the actual Bronze age. That does to some extent apply to much of Genertela, but it's more evident in the West.

Well, I guess maybe I'm a bit past that now, but my knowledge is very much based on the newer material that's been published in the last few years, and is mostly centred around the lore-aspect of things, as I'm only just barely getting acquainted with P&P RPGS. compared to many of the other regulars in here, I'm still very much putting out feelers and trying to connect dots.

I suppose, if we apply RW logic, that would depend on what the palate of the trolls themselves look like. Speaking of which - how about some implied sub-sonic sounds as part of the Uz languages? This is something RW elephants are capable of producing, and use to vibrate through the ground for vast distances. One might imagine such a quality being useful for an originally Darkness-dwelling, and currently often cave-dwelling group of beings. While humans won't be able to hear that normally, we might be able to pick up a slight deep buzz, or a vaguely audible rumble, which would probably come off as pretty off-putting, adding to the general air of scariness most Dark Trolls probably have to your average human Joe.

I'm also a newbie, but essentially, the Vadeli are a kind of offshoot of the ancient, pre-Time Malkioni peoples of Danmalastan (the lost continent where the Western people/Malkioni come from). I've always mentally parsed them as the Sith to the Malkioni's Jedi (not that Malkioni in general are as heroic as the Jedi, but they are presented as mirror images, in a sense). The Vadeli are ordered into castes and practice sorcery just like the Malkioni, but for somewhat unknown reasons, they maintain their castes by routinely breaking taboos and performing pretty horrific acts. They are seen as compulsive liars, murderers and betrayers by most other peoples in Glorantha, but they can be powerful, and they are good sailors and traders, so I guess they are tolerated to some extent. Currently, only two of their four castes are seen in the wider world. The Brown Vadeli, ie. their equivalent of the Dronari (worker, craftsman caste), and their Red Vadeli, their equivalent of the Horali (warrior caste). The Blues are rumored to have been seen, ie. their actual sorcerer castes who are rumored to be insanely powerful (possibly rivaling the Brithini, except even more uncaring about mortal lives). Back in the Gods War, they essentially conspired with the Mostali to backstab the other Malkioni, and after that was done, they betrayed the Mostali, trying to build their own empire, which was crushed with the destruction of the Spike. The only real, sizeable population that survived the Vadeli's attack were the Brithini who were protected by Zzabur (and some other, very tiny populations). The Vadeli themselves kinda went into obscurity until fairly recently, iirc. After The Opening by Dormal, they went ahead and tried setting up their old Empire, focusing on Pamaltela in the Fonritian and Umathelan regions, presenting themselves as gods, but they were eventually defeated by a local coalition.

Is bookbinding a thing in Glorantha? Or do they use scrolls, or etched copper plates, fired clay in wood frames, palm leaf scrolls, hide parchment rolls, papyrus scrolls etc.? In short, what is the physical medium people envision these grimoires are stored in? I dunno, actual bookbinding (as opposed to locked-together plates) seems a bit medieval in my mind, but I might be wrong.

With the Mostali land-raising, will that simply eradicate all surface-land, or will it uplift it? To put it more concretely: will it turn Umathela into a barren wasteland of uniform elevation, or will the forests of the Aldryami and Umathelan Orlanthi survive? If they don't, I suppose the next logical step for them is to flee eastwards into Fonrit proper? Unless they cross into interior Pamaltela. The same applies to the Slorifings, of course. Sorry, not strictly Iceberg-related, just co-occuring.

Good point. Divine favor is, in the grand scheme of things, "just" another condition a warlord or general needs to take into account, together with weather, logistics, etc.

Tarins has a combined urban population of ca. 80,000 people, iirc, which coupled with the impression that the Vadeli are mostly urbanites, and your assertion that most of (ie. at least half and a bit) are settled there, means that something like 30,000 of those 80,000 would be Vadeli. That can't be right, can it?

You know what they say: "from the mouths of babes are drunkards come truth". A reaction fitting Eurmal's shenanigans. 😄

Sounds like you're implying that some kind of giant baby monster put the Lightbringers into its mouth to taste them, and Eurmal made it gag them up again. That's just crazy enough to be a real Eurmal story.