Sir_Godspeed

I had a look in the Guide, and it seems that both Tor Balur and Tor Vara has this description, although not using the term "Old Earth religion" there, though I'm sure I've seen that term used elsewhere. I'm not sure how much to say with certainty, but it seems that the settlements being focused around (comparatively) large temple complexes, either of Cyclopean architecture (ie. large stones fitted closely without mortar) or underground caverns is a common feature for most Earth-focused sites in Kethaela/Kerofinela and the surrounding areas. Additionally, the highest authority would've been either a priestess or queen (or both in one person) who may or may not have been an embodiment of the Goddess (or many goddesses). There would probably have been male companions, who may or may not have been seen as sons (like Verhil), or perhaps "tamed" foreigners, possibly. More than one companion is perfectly possible, even likely, though a prime companion among these is also quite possible. Human sacrifice is mentioned for the Balurgans, but for what purpose, and to what extent is a bit iffy. Fertility purposes is probably a good bet. Keep in mind that human sacrifice in a context of less than a 1000 people in the area means it's no small matter. May have been used even to "renew" Verhil, but that's just me spinning a bit of a yarn. Complex agriculture is also a likely aspect, though I wouldn't necessarily say a required feature.

Judging by Belintar's recollections from his life as an elf on the Glorantha site, there doesn't seem to be much thought given to Chaos or any good, clear Chaos analogy/synonym. What IS mentioned though, and given a good deal of space, is the IMBALANCE between Grower and Taker. Hell, it's even implied that the Green Age was imbalanced too, imbalanced towards Grower. With the Storm Age and Darkness Taker became imbalanced. Judging by that text, the elves Belintar merged with, at least, saw the world of Time as a world where Grower and Taker were balanced at last. In this sense, the "Taker that doesn't leave anything behind" seems an apt understanding of Kajabor or the forces of Chaos in general. However, it still seems the aldryami perspective is different. This would be fine, except that Argrath nowhere seems to end *time*, the result of Solara's supposed treason, thus continuing the world's doom. Way to break it, Hero! Chaos, or "Void-inside-the-Cosmos", might not always have been evil, and indeed may have had its necessary influx into the universe through the Chaosium to fuel creation as fundamental to Glorantha as the sun's rays are to life on Earth. However, on the other hand, as I mentioned above, regardless of intent, it might simply be that Chaos is by its very nature so inimical to life and existance as we mortals know it that it's difficult to see it as anything other than harmful. Soap isn't inherently evil either, but it's difficult for it to coexist in the same space as conventional bacteria, as it dissolves their very structure and renders them formless and unable to live - to use a belabored metaphor. It'd be interesting to know their intentions and thoughts, beyond "angry at the other gods" and "insane", which is the usual impression I get by their description. As I mentioned above, Chaos is perhaps best understood as "Void/Predark-inside-Creation". To quote the famous anthropologist Mary Douglas, it is "matter out of place". Its not dangerous because if its own nature, but because it's where it shouldn't be (like soap next to a bacteria - from the bacteria's perspective, of course!) Mathematically, this is interesting. In a context of infinite potential, then everything will at some point both exist and not exist. So in other words, Glorantha was inevitable, as was every other possible infinite permutation of existance and non-existance. If you're into that sort of musing, anyway.

The Death of Stone was instrumental in making the invention of iron possible? We might've stumbled over a dwarven secret here. Everyone hide from the gremlins!

It was my impression from the Guide that the Mostali just straight up invented iron, and create it much like we would create a synthetic substance IRL (well, not the same methods, but you know). "Natural" veins around the world might be God Time deposits lost by the dwarves, I don't know. It status as the metal of death is interesting when combined with the idea of it as a synthetic substance and the story of death as a late Golden age innovation.

The lost secret of Lodrili mysticism!

It does sound a bit like some kind of mystical secret as well. As in a metaphor of an additional means of performing work/doing stuff.

Makes sense, and is also a really interesting story worth looking into. The patriarchal remnants of western migrants incorporating into a more matriarchal (although not necessarily completely so, cf. Genert) society, finding a niche (possibly more than one, cf. Issaries) and integrating before the proverbial crap hits the fan in the shape of the rising Celestial ambitions.

Any idea how this might coexist with the Kachasti-Zzaburite influence idea?

"Highlands" would make a lot of sense, if that's the case.

The idea that the Red Goddess is a kind of Frankenstein's Monster of a goddess seems to me to be a fairly common perspective for the Empire's enemies, at least from the more learned ones. It also highlights the idea that her very existance is a breach of the Cosmic Compromise, far moreso than lifting up a ball of dirt, as it were. The official Lunar line, of course, is that they were merely putting together a goddess that had existed before Time and had been dismantled during the Gods War, thus bringing the universe back to its rightful state. This is also supported by the dwarves - so even if the Lunars aren't quite right, it's clear that there is *something* going on here that echoes back to the Gods Time. She might still be a kind of Frankenstein's Monster, but one that is essentially a simulacrum of something that *did* exist before. It's a highly complex question without a canonical answer, a far as I know. The point about Illusion is well made, however illusions also seem to be a general aspect of moons in Glorantha, as far as I can tell. Her seven sides also ties into the traditional idea of Six Parts of a person/soul in Yelmic ontology, with the seventh added as a seemingly novel innovation. It's certainly built upon preexisting ideas, even if you don't think she was a literal preexisting goddess, I guess is what I'm saying. Then there's the Nysalorean aspect, with respect to the breach of the Compromise, another aspect Lunars and anti-Lunars have very opposing views on. Another case of Lunars building upon preexisting ideas, at least in a historical sense (although a Lunar might say Nysalor was kind of an inbetweener between the Gods Time Sedenya and the restored Sedenya in Time, I don't know). You might argue, if you're a observationistic anthro-fan like myself, that the Red Goddess appears to be a succesful combination of Yelmic self-ontology, Nysalorean Illumination ideas/mysticism, and a range of disparate pre-Patriarchal Green Age/early Golden Age mother goddess and moon goddess cults and remnants from across Peloria. The closest real life equivalent I can think of is something like Sikhism or Baha'i, except neither of these managed to take over a massive empire. Perhaps Christianity, with its mix of Judaic messianism and Neoplatonic cosmology/ontology is a better comparison. Regardless, the Lunars did not come out of nowhere, and there is a precedent for the concepts they use, which also explains why they've resonated not just with magical rites and cults, but with the general imagination and passion of ordinary people. Now, whether their claims are *true* is a bit of a different matter.

I was wondering - how do you most efficiently quote posts from different pages to put in the same post? I have this issue, that if I quote post from page 1, it goes into my text box, then I switch pages to another one to quote another, and the first one is gone. With another text editor I would've just copied the raw text and been fine, but I can't figure out how to get to the raw text. 😕 I also want to avoid multiposting as far as possible.

The etymology of Sartar is pretty clear: it's named after its founder, Sartar. But what about Tarsh? Ancestral name? Clan name extended to a kingdom? Pre-existing toponym extended over a greater area from a royal core? Or something else entirely?

Snowy conditions might actually make for easier transportation in some cases. Sleighs, skis, frozen lakes and rivers, etc. Now, spring thaw-floods are a mess that makes everything more difficult. This is with a temperate or sub-arctic climate in mind, mind you. I don't know how it's with mediterranean and subtropic climates, or deep continental ones.

Does the weather maps in the Guide show when the temperature in areas rise over zero or go below? That's usually an important aspect of vernacular agricultural calendars. I think the start of spring sowing in my own country was traditionally determined by counting a certain number of days without frost to make sure it wasn't a false spring. Point is, it wasn't a set date, really, but relative to climatic events.

Well, most common weapons throughout history are just repurposed daily tools, after all.

42 is of course the answer to another famous riddle... well, question, rather, but still.

That makes sense too. Hence why both Arkat and Nysalor can be said to be either Illuminated or Occluded. What matters, materially, is their ability to surpass cultic taboos and restrictions through cosmic and mystic understanding. One could of course argue that the only objective standard for occlusion is whether one rejects or embraces worldly concerns. But by this criterium, again, both Arkat and Nysalor would be as occluded as Sheng is. You could even argue that Sedenya is, too. Basically anyone Enlightened who did anything worth mentioning would be occluded. The only one I could think of would be that one Vithelan sage who in Revealed Mythologies is said to have done nothing and passed on into obscurity. That guy evidently did it, by this criteria.

Is it that simple though? It seems equally to me that those features were always present, and started "leaking in" when Umath split his parents apart (or killed the World Machine as the Mostali would say), or perhaps even earlier. It's not just about creation and destruction, it's about the breaking down of the classifications and categories that exist within cosmos, making differentiation impossible. This reminds me of some Polynesian pantheistic ideas, apropos of keeping categories apart. In that worldview, the universe is a result of the infinite divine being separated and divided, thus making differences and particularity possible (illustrated by a great turtle shell held up by different pillars, and by the tattoos (tatau) worn by many men). Breaching taboos (tapu) is dangerous because they weaken the very structure of the cosmos, creating indifferentiation which makes human life as we know it impossible. very similarly, Chaos in Glorantha often takes the form of "things that should not be", categories mixing. It's the primordial soup re-digesting a crystallized back into something homogenous, if you will - or to use a modern physics analogy, the spread of heat energy universally across available space, ie. entropy. I suppose you could argue that this "indifferentiation" or "border-breaching" is just another aspect of Chaos' destructive properties, but given that they can in turn take on a long life within Cosmos, it's hard to say if destruction is necessarily the inevitable outcome.

Oh man, that thread was a trip. great stuff. I knew about Duck Point and Wilmskirk, but the rest was news to me. It's not strange Glorantha has always felt like such a communal thing.

I thought this was something on my end. At least now I know I'm not alone.

Oh wow! Are they available anywhere separately? How relevant are they to the lore as it presently stands?

I was once explained the difference between Gloranthan Enlightenment and Occlusion as something like this: both realize that All is One, and that there no objective morality to constrain oneself. However, the Occluded take this to mean that existance is a kind of moral solipsism, where they are the sole arbiter of what can and should be done, and that therefore they are free to act however they like with no regards to others. The Enlightened, on the other hand, realizes that if all is one, the idea of a "self" that oversees others is false, and that harming any others is tantamount to harming the self, insofar as either is real in any meaningful sense*. Now, in hindsight, this is only ONE way one can become Occluded, but one of several logical "traps" along the way to enlightenment, I'd argue. (*This also logically leads to the focus on Inaction, Stillness or Separation which exists in a lot of Vithelan mysticism, and even EWF draconic mysticism. Whether one agrees that it is the RIGHT focus is probably up for debate.)

This is one of those things that sound nice on paper, but it is a hard sell in practical terms. "Evil" isn't really an actual entity or quantity in either Glorantha or real life, so it's essentially a subjective value judgment. Nysalor, on account of his enlightenment (or occlusion, I'm still not sold that he was entirely enlightened) was beyond cultic strictures and other limitations caused by the runic lattice-structure of Glorantha. He understood that there was, on a fundamental level, no real difference between him and everyone else, or any other spiritual or physical entitity within cosmos, and by extension, no real difference between cosmos and chaos. Basically, classical Buddhist Anatta for those who are interested. This is my understanding, anyway. Now, this allowed him to do a number of actions that would probably otherwise be impossible, because he deemed them necessary or because he wanted to. Great, fair enough. However, that doesn't mean that he's beyond another observer's moral judgment. That's how morality works, it's a relational aspect.

Welcome! And good luck.

Is there any mutual contention on whether Arkat or Nysalor were Occluded rather than Enlightened?