Sir_Godspeed

I think this is one of those things that can only be decided on a table-by-table basis, YGWV and all that. My impression is that Chaosium is attempting to present a Glorantha that is a bit more straightforward than, say, the Stafford Library makes it seem at times. Ie. stuff either happened or it didn't. There is, when you dig enough, a singular truth to things, even if no one in-universe knows what it is. Most emic gods can be mapped onto a limited number of etic Runic archetypes. The Monomyth is *mostly* correct, etc. etc. I could be misrepresenting Chaosium here, but that's my impression based on the messages left on this board, and it does make a lot of sense in terms of newcomer-friendliness (even if I am a relative newcomer who loves esotericism for the sake of esotericism, but then I suspect I am a massive outlier). But yeah, in my Glorantha at least, the mythic reality is highly contingent and mutable, and perhaps more importantly - not something you can just put down an explanation or mechanism for. It's not just a Pratchettian "belief equals real", it's more complex than that.

Thanks for the comprehensive reply! I was of the impression that the horse warlords were largely kicked out of Peloria by the end of the Second Council, but these people are clearly sticking around for a longer time/have gone "native". Interesting!

I'm not sure if you mentioned it explicitly, but doesn't the hill itself have a subtle luminous quality?

Yeah, she's got a lot of hats, so to speak. I didn't initially mean for it, but then different tasks logically fell together and after a while I came to like her a lot as she is. The trickster aspect is externalized to the arctic fox, though it is "bound" in a somewhat similar fashion as Eurmal is to Orlanth, however as you mention, the relationship is less fraught with tension, and considering the importance the Muskoxi place on their arctic fox companions for trapping and hunting, I think you assesment of a less malicious trickery is probably right. That being said, it's also possible that the fox is a less purely-Disorder being, since I'm toying with the idea that the Arctic Fox sort of covers the same tropes as Eurmal, Yinkin and even Orlanth to some extent. So, a somewhat unreliable, moody, prank-y, and seductive being. Unlikely to murder anyone, but shapeshift into your spouse to make you commit adultery? Hide in the snow and steal your hunting catch? Drink all the milk of the Musk-cows? Rub its rear along the skis to make them stink to high heavens? Quite possibly. (Just brainstorming here). Love it! Maybe Muskoxi men, in particular, have a soft spot for a woman who can outsmart them in some way. She's a keeper, you see. (Now my brain has started spitballing joking relationships, for example between in-laws or something.) Very good too. As you said, the loyalty is not unconditional. (But reliable enough to be largely worth it.) I like the idea of normally stolid, stoic Muskoxi men suddenly getting a raptus of cheekiness or mild malevolence and blaming it on the Arctic Fox spirit/Western Wind possessing them. Perhaps the joking relationships are a ritualized way to prevent this from happening? Remember to verbally spar with your mother/father-in-law, lest the Trickster make you do something untoward, like putting poop in someone's shoes, or something *really* bad, like throwing out meat to lure polar/grizzly bears close to the herd.

Yelm couldn't handle Orlanth's spicy rub.

Aside from blood purity arguments (like Xeotam's arguments about Hsunchen magics requiring undiluted Hsunchen ancestry which I personally find dubious), I think one of the main factors here are inheritance rights, to be honest. It was Sartar who made the arrangements with the mortals and the gods to create and sustain the fabric of the Kingdom of Sartar. Thus the magics that come from these arrangements are (at least nominally) the claim of his heirs. The Orlanth Rex cult as it manifests *specifically* in the context of the Sartarite kingdom is tied to Sartar's heroic exploits. It's not just some ambient magic anyone can tap into. Now, whether the Orlanth Rex cult require literal blood descent is another matter, and personally I'm skeptical to this as well: in a significant part because many cultures practice adoption quite freely, and Orlanthi in particular have marriage forms where children born to a mother will become the legal heirs of a specific man regardless of who impregnated her, so locking adopted children, or legal children, or children born during sacred rites etc. out of the magical inheritance chain seems like a modern genetically-minded worldview screwing with the importance of emic understandings of descent. Of course, an in-universe Sartarite would really only know if they made the brazier flame up or not, and whether they pulled off the rituals or not. If it works, it works.

Well, they could clear fields of boulders, or dredge ditches pretty well!

Back when I read the Entekosiad, I think I mostly read about Naveria as a goddess. Now I'm reading the Fortunate Succession, and Naveria appears in the periodical maps as a seemingly rather large (though not dominant) polity. Does anyone know anything about it? It occupies the Darsenite core areas, so I associate it with the Darsenite mother goddess complex (helps that Naveria the goddess is a part of that whole deal too, I think), but beyond that I know jack all.

In the Witcher, you can only take a certain amount of potions before they become toxic. This is a game mechanic to avoid players binging potions before a battle to become stupidly overpowered. Not sure if a toxicity dosage thing could be worked into RQ. Something like your character being able to heal a bit, and get something that increases hearing, but taking more than that would be harmful for the body. Admittedly, this could perhaps also just be balanced by making stuff scarcer, which would be up to the GM.

I was going to post this yesterday, but forgot: In terms of pro-social questlines and problems - and I know this is going to sound daft - I got to thinking about the stuff my nephew and niece watches on TV. PJ Masks has dozens of episodes emphasizing the importance of utilizing the skills and powers of all the groups' members together to synergize, and how striking out alone is doomed to fail, including lessons about irresponsibility, overconfidence, jealousy, etc. While it is series about child superheroes, it is perhaps just as much a series about how to do consensus decisions (and how difficult consensus governance can be). Vampirina has story upon story humorously bridging the gap between immigrants and locals, and working to create understanding between them, and how both newcomers and locals can benefit from each other and integrate, and how personal efforts, dedication and trust is needed to make this happen, but it is worth it in the end, even if the immigrant is initially seen as repulsive, horrific and a literal monster from the cultural view of the natives (make me think of trolls and humans in Glorantha. Vampirina is clearly an AA adept, y'all). There's for example one episode where Vampirina has to juggle her grandparents' desire to have a traditional Vampire celebration, while also having humans attending and not having them have a bad time. Hilarity ensues - but honestly it's kind of a great display of trying to integrate different groups into the same ritual without diluting the meaning or potency of the ritual. Pretty good Glorantha-fodder. Paw Patrol exhibits the importance of teamwork as above, and also the rewarding nature of doing one's duties well, with situations specifically designed to make each specialist come off as uniquely useful. (It's also the story of how Chase is a f***** brown-noser, but that might just be me). Additionally, it also emphasises, though interaction with the civilian population, how the work of the pups is directly beneficial for the community they are sworn to help (an element often lacking in most other "hero"-themed fiction, come to think of it.). Dora the Explorer is honestly like a modern version of the Ashlad ("Boots"), which highlights the importance of treating the people one meet on one's journeys with respect and fairness, and how this will come around and help you in the end. Especially if these journeys are into trippy, otherworldly fairytale landscapes. These are basically mini-heroquests, where the focus is on applying the correct aid to each encounter, so that their boons may be granted in order to fulfill the quest at the end. Kindness, honesty, cleverness (and sometimes subterfuge) are the keys to victory here. Childlike innocence can be replaced with a more mature sense of "strength of character" for that touch of virtue ethics when it comes to protagonists, for example. Maybe your character isn't as innocent as Dora, but a principled Issarite, empathetic Chalanite, or incorruptible Ernaldan does the trick too. --- Now, I know that some of this might come off as slightly condescending, but I truly do not intend it to be. I've given this some thought, and I sadly can't think of more "adult" examples for these kinds of narratives. I know real events that reflects the lessons above, but not a whole lot of games or blockbusters, as it were. And yet I think they can be made exciting and high-stakes, and dare I say, filled with enthusiasm and wonder in addition to thrill and peril, of course (and probably a good deal of frustration because Harmony Is Hard).

I'm not sure what timeframe you're working with here, but these things are unlikely to become a problem within the first couple of generations. And by that time they've likely found some external marriage partners -OR- the clan has grown so large that some part of it leaves through fission and so becomes a new, viable marriage partner! (And if they haven't? QUESTING TIME! Send your best and brightest out on a Wooing Journey. ) It should be noted that in real life, the typical arrangement is not a triaty, but a relationship between two exogamous groups, called a moiety. So different configurations are perfectly viable... and riddled with complications.

Peloria, perhaps more than any other region in Glorantha, has an absolute mountain of cultural strata layered above and below each other, with names, rituals and titles being reused in different contexts, and cross-imported/exported across the bowl as polities rise and fall. (Un-universe, perhaps this might have something to do with a relatively high population density and many different literate groups - but that's neither here nor there.) Couple this with a kind of "uncanny valley" syndrome of the region, where many cultures are sort-of-similar, but-not-quite (unlike the Orlanthi Lightbringer cultures, which while obviously different, have a more recent unifying mythos layered above the pre-Dawn local substrata - I'm simplifying here, obviously, but still), you end up with the (likely) extremely long-lived traditions of urbanized Pelanda, matriarchal Naveria/Darsen, the Avian Northeast, the mixed Storm-Sun southern plains*, the Imperial pretenders of central Dara Happa all kinda overlapping while still retaining various unique myths or practices or beliefs. The Feathered Eagle Lords possibly being a true empire unto themselves in their own mythos, but being reduced to a dynasty from a central Dara Happan viewpoint, the Darsenite goddesses being largely marginalized outside of that region until Valare Addi came along (that marginalization possibly being a change from a former state of Green Age preeminence, even), etc. etc. It is, imho, *extremely* difficult to know which traditions are deliberately (re)constructions and which arose organically. While it is tempting to throw everything Plentonic aside as a one big propaganda piece to essentially "invent" a Gold Age Empire that may never even have existed, his writings still remain our primary sources, and it's equally possible to overreact in the other direction (maybe the Empire was more pluralistic, dynamic or even more of a religious/cultural hegemony that also included the Golden Age Solar East under Vith and Govmeranen, with Peloria being one surviving extremity, for example, and it's not like the Vithelans' stories about universal Solar Emperors were also invented to help out Khorzanelm's propaganda machine). It's enough to drive you nuts. And hence very realistic, ofc. (*I'm not sure if anyone else views Saird, Vanch, Imther, Dara-Ni, Terarir as "mixed Sun-Storm plains", but it was the best generalizing term I could come up with off the cuff) Anyway, got a bit carried away there. I definitely wish we had more comprehensive knowledge of the different traditions, and how they were utilized, but even with what we got, it's difficult to keep things straight.

What's a bludgeon matrix? The boinky bit?

This is totally new to me. Very interesting!

Now I'm imagining Soltakss breaking into people's houses at night in a scary bat costume and holding folks up against the wall: "WHERE IS IT???"

It's possible that the Lifebringer Quest was a more ancient myth, told by the Grey/Dawn Era Heortlings. It's possible that the Lightbringer Quest was a mythic innovation or just re-orientation (by focusing on slightly different elements, ie. the Sun instead of Ernalda/Earth/Life) done by the Heortling-Pelorian synthesis of the Bright Empire (that's also probably when we see Rebellus Terminus being identified with Orlanth, and the Bad Emperor being identified with Yelm for the first time, with them previously having been unidentified, or even different entities entirely. Myth is weird). This all depends on how much you believe the God Time has a central core of "true" events, and how much you believe the God Time is more a reflection of the myths that people tell, believe and performat any one time. (It's entirely possible that both are true at once. Once again, myth is weird.)

Shame we never got the Emperor taking a female Mask. That would've been fun. But maybe there's something cosmic balance stuff what with the Great Sister and all. (But then maybe the Emperor taking a female body would still count as a man ritualistically and socially).

I mean, they probably have kerfuffles around that in the Third Age too. As much as we tend to think of Arkat being popular in Safelster, it's my impression that there are plenty of anti-Arkat sentiment there too.

I think that was partially the point. Some people will have strong feelings about Arkat, others will not. It varies.

While he did not defeat Chaos completely (which wasn't really his goal as such, but to save the world for his kin and by extension everyone I suppose), he did provide the necessary impetus for Arachne Solara to devour/mate with Kajabor and produce Time, ie. entropy, a kind of cosmos-integrated Chaos. Orlanth is truly the Larnsting.

Love the padded, more heavily clothed looks of the Loskalmi.

About a month has passed, and while I've done some reading and some thinking/noting, I did get sidetracked quite badly. I also waited until I got permission from MOB to alter one of Chaosium's maps. Below is a tentative attempt, or sketch if you will, of the general area where Muskoxi would live - though not over all of it, and certainly not in any compact sense (the population density here is absolutely, abysmally, low.). It's a rather large area too - compared to Southern Genertela, the area showed in the map is basically the equivalent of Kethaela, Prax and Parts of Maniria and Dragon Pass. It's quite big. Inquiring eyes might also spot that it goes further north than the AAA or Guide maps, which has been a great boon for me. The map mixes canonical and fan-made place names, and is a part of the process I'm going through where I'm trying to figure out the world from these Muskox folks' perspective. I've therefore kept the fan-made names mostly straightforward English. Some smaller landmarks might not fit 100% with canon locations. That can be fixed in later iterations. Lots of work remains, such as trying to get a general feel for demographics/social geography, getting a better understanding of the Glacier/Ice Age so as to know where to finalize the moraines, as well as to determine the extent of permafrost (including attempting to distinguish those areas with continuous permafrost from those with discontinuous).

My impression: The "Yu"-morpheme may originally had a prosaic meaning of "Above/Over", and over time the association between this position and divinity melded in the celestially-worshipping culture, so that something overhead was metaphorically indicative of divinity. This isn't too far off from Indo-European languages, where the Latin "deus" (god) ultimately derives from the reconstructed PIE "dyéus" (or something like it) which would most likely have meant "(the day-lit) sky". So Yelm is possibly archaically "Yu-Elm" (Light Ovearhead/Above). Yuthubars might've been "City (of the) Above", and so on. This might mean a couple of things: - If the "above/over" meaning is older, then the *name* "Yelm" might be of quite ancient provenance, regardless of whether the name's usage to denote the chief imperial ruling deity is equally ancient. - Contrary to my above point: distinguishing the "above" and "god" meanings are possibly dependant on context, and in fact coexist in the languages, instead of being a simple case of one understanding replacing the other (a bit like "Sri" in parts of India, which can be translated both as "Lord", "Holy", just "god", or indeed even "Husband"). - I'm way off base and none of this means anything and I'm just making stuff up (which is fair enough., I'm having fun doing so.)

Thank you! This analysis/compilation was highly inspiring to read through, and it dug quite lot deeper than the initial question of "did Yelm only truly come into Time with the Sunstop", to the deeper complexities of the regional and folk- deities of the wider Pelorian basin, the Many Suns, and the idea that the Yelmic cult is a synthesis for religio-political purposes. It made me think of a thread that was linked here by GodLearner: Indeed, I even posted in there, so it was in the back of my mind once I started reading Nick's commentary. It's really cool how people approach similar ideas with so much time and space apart. I, at least anecdotally, adds credence to the ideas, in my opinion. Plus, they're neat. (Now to extrapolate from a synthetic Lunar Goddess, and a synthetic Solar God to the perhaps more controversial ideas of the synthesis of Orlanth and Ernalda, the latter which has been discussed on the forum already....)

But we're also told that Kargzant is Lightfore, while Yu-Kargzant is Yelm/The Sun Disk, so I always assume the "Yu" had a slightly more exclusive meaning than just "god." Maybe "Lord" or "Great" or some intensifier.