Sir_Godspeed

It's my understanding that Tarshite Lunars are still culturally Orlanthi. That is, they organize in clans, hold tulas, have thanes and chiefs, form tribes, have hospitality rules, etc. Now, granted, the cities might alter the equation a bit, I don't know, for example, if Tarshite cities would be organized like Sartarite cities/towns, especially given that they are under a larger imperial hierarchy.

I get, but that doesn't seem like the general impression people have. Admittedly, these forums don't necessarily represent most folks (most of whom likely do not give a rat's tail about all of this, if fandom in general is anything to go by.)

As seen in previous threads (oh dear, here we go again) I think a lot of the reluctance to let go of Elmal is in a large part due to that Elma is a total bro, whereas is Yelmalio is often presented as a prudish dick. (pardon my French).

I honestly love all of them.

Apparently this will no longer be true in upcoming publications. It's been discussed A LOT, so I don't want to start this discussion again, but that's basically Chaosium's take on it nowadays, from what I gather.

That's fine and all, but there are still interesting ideas with regards to virtuality, such as the Buddhist anatta, which I've mentioned before in a Mystic-themed thread (basically it's the refutation of an essential or core self. Rather, it holds that the self is just as ephemeral as everything else, just a constellation of thoughts and impulses just as loosely tied together and fleeting as anything else. The soul and mind are delusions.), or Zhang Zu's butterfly conundrum (ie. the inability to differentiate real from sufficiently accurate virtuality - in his case a dream). A mystic might say that the sufficiently convincing nature of the "virtual" Glorantha as an ephemeral bubble in the Void (structured by Runic categories) is one of the main obstacles to achieving Illumination, for example. A mystic teacher's job might be helping their students experience the "cracks" of the cosmos, ie. the inconsistencies, faults, etc., so as to bring them further to Illumination, and to give up the intense obsession with the limited self as the core and centre of everything (in essence, the opposite of solipsism, perhaps having to do with Unbeing or Unbecoming or whatever it's called in Revealed Mythologies, I forget) One can spin further on this, of course. Or, as you say, you can go into the different direction and emphasise the rigid rules and mechanistic nature of it all for a more Mostali perspective (though I suspect that if you go far enough in either direction, one will find that the difference is a bit of a false dichotomy, but that might just be me).

Well, it depends on which aspect you focus on: if you focus on the fact that it's a logic-determined script that controls everything, then yes, it's clearly more sorcerous and Western. But if you focus on that it's showing that material reality is actually only virtual then it can lead to a mystic line of thought. There's a reason why the Matrix draws on Buddhism and Taoism so much.

I mean, Mysticism isn't necessarily too far away from that. Not literally, but virtualism, etc.

I speculated earlier that they could be using their winter-time pulks as boats during summer. Generally speaking, most of them will be landlocked, so boating will probably be mostly in creeks and rivers, with probably some flooded plains during spring and such. There IS also some large bodies of water north of North Pent. These bodies are not visible on the closeup maps in AAA, but on the large-scale Genertela map they can barely be seen. I don't know if these are saltwater and connected to the White Sea, though it's certainly possible, perhaps even likely. EDIT: Troll marsh also likely has some open bodies of water. Not sure how dangerous/hostile that area is to outsiders though. Eyh, no worries. I'm glad you enjoy it. I'm not sure how much of what I'm putting up is really interesting to anyone except myself, but I thought, what the heck, I'm in the company of esteemed worldbuilders, so might as well.

Very well put on the difference between Pelorian/Dara Happan and Kethaelan mother goddess appraches. I think my only caveat here is that our sources skew towards the upper class urban Dara Happan perspective, where Dendara is, as you say, strongly separated from the physical processes of agriculture and such. However, I am not sure if the opposite is true for Oria in the eyes of the rural/villager Lodrilites. This might just be my own bias, but I think Oria is not just limited to agricultural work for them. She is the village goodwife, the household administrator, the mother, etc., just as Lodril is the village husband, headman, father, etc. Basically very relevant as behavioral models for most "common folk", in that unflattering, everyday way that's only possible when neither deity needs to be Super-Perfect-Never-Even-Farted-Just-Trust-Me-On-This-One kinda gods. I could be wrong, but that's the impression I get of the subaltern perspective. Noble Dara Happans probably do not pay her much mind. And I agree that Dendara's lack of earthly association - if she is an Earth goddess, which it seems she is of *some* kind - is conspicuous by its absence. Sneaky sneaky DHs.

If you can get your hand on Sweetness and Power by Sidney Mintz, the first few chapters might offer some really good insights into the pre-sugary Classical and Medieval world. The later chapters deal a lot with colonization and capitalism, but even there are some worthwhile points (sugar as a preservative and cheap calories in a plantation economy enabling increased work exploitation and stricter schedules might be of interest if you're dealing with slaver owners or feudal lords in a tropical region, like Fonrit or what have you.) https://books.google.no/books/about/Sweetness_and_Power.html?id=_pefwak9cPAC&redir_esc=y

In terms of names, purely? Maybe, though I don't personally know of any specific instances where they associated Dendara with any Orlanthi goddess. The only thing we have to go form is the story of how the promiscuous goddess Erlanda was kicked out along with her husband Erlandus. So "Ernalda" is obviously not a name they'll view positively - but that doesn't mean they'll associate Dendara with Esrola, though, at least not that I know of. But, in terms of function, Oria is definitely the Fertile Earth. If anything, she's performs the functions of Esrola AND Ernalda, at least for commoners.

I don't think that's right. The more obvious Esrolia analogue in Peloria is Oria, Lodril's wife, and mother of plants and animals and goddess of agriculture. If Dendara is any Earth deity, I can't easily couple her with any other than Ernalda, tbh, although she's clearly a more "neutered" (power-wise) version. That being said, I kinda love the idea that she's actually Heler(a), even if there might not be much canonically for that.

I've been looking up some visual references, mostly from Siberia and Indigenous North Americans, or circumpolar peoples in general (though admittedly I have some Inuit/Aleut research to do). I think it's becoming clearer and clear that it's not like I can just base their look entirely off one culture, since there's no real culture that clearly matches their lifestyle. Reindeer herders are perhaps the closest. There's a few observations on their material culture I'm thinking about: it depends on the kind of resources and technology they have access to, and to what extent they are able to refine/store/trade, etc. So first off, probably no native metals. I suppose in the RW they could've been able to dredge for marsh iron, but that doesn't feel quite right for Glorantha. So, like the Praxians, the metal they have is traded for with external partners. That makes sense, right? Tools tend to be made from bone, horn, stone and wood, with sinew and other animal byproducts to bind them together and such. Probably not very controversial either, but I'd love some input here in terms of specifics. They obviously have their muskoxen, but what other animals do they have access to, and what can they make from those that you wouldn't be able to make otherwise? A few of them might be able to hunt seal, but I don't think most of them will. Reindeer is probably pretty widespread, with some being wild and others being herded by their neighbors. Mastodons exist in North Pent, and a few of those every year might provide some resources, but it's probably not something you can subsist on. Prestige prey, or for annual feasts or trading perhaps. There are a few rivers around, so fish is available to some of them, but not all probably, though given the nomadic nature it might be a fixed stop on annual migration to get some... arctic salmon? Perch? I'm gliding over into foodstuffs now, I guess, though they're clearly related topics (foxes, wolves, lemmings, groundfowl, beavers(??), otters, etc.). Plant matter is also a good question, aside from sticks, what else is there to use? Dried lichen is useful for tinder and for shoe-fillings, for example. Speaking of fire, I am assuming that most of their fires will be burnt on dried dung from their animals, but if there's a problem with that, feel free to say so. One thing I've been thinking about quite a lot is skins/furs versus woven wool. The reason for this is that most of the circumpolar and Siberian people I can find make liberal use of fur and skins for their clothing, for many good reasons (seal skins are very waterproof, iirc, reindeer skins also have great properties), but for the Muskoxen people, there is one advantage they have that most RW people do not have: qiviut, or the molted Muskox underwool. Every spring this underwool molts off, and can be freely taken and used for clothing. It is perhaps the warmest textile in the entire world, and is extremely soft as well (though it needs to be woven, as it can't be felted). In my mind, this would mean that they're a culture that perhaps wears clothing that looks more like Sami (Lappish) tunic, or even that of the Norse peoples, ie. woollen-looking, rather than skins, like those of inuits. However, it's also clear that there's nothing inherently preventing them from mixing these two products. I'm open to suggestions. EDIT: I kinda neglected the effect of wind, which skins are probably better as stopping than woven wool, however dense. This makes the case for mixed clothing stronger, perhaps, though the exact form it'll take might vary. I've also been thinking about the qiviut (underwool) and how it could form the basis for their trading economy perhaps more than anything else. It is an annually renewable resource, and if there is more of it than is strictly needed for the band to maintain their clothing, then it would probably be a highly valuable good, selling it to the Etyries Caravan (or rather, in my mind, a minor offshoot of it) and local Pentan neighbors, Reindeer herders, and even trolls. This is part of me trying to balance the mix of endemic raiding and hostility with one that allows from relatively peaceful interaction as well, which I think is a lot more interesting than just the former. The latter point brings up their Vadrudi heritage/mentality, and is something I should perhaps touch on more later, but I've been considering how to mix the stereotypical and usually negative idea presented by Orlanthi myths with the realities of living in these conditions, and my general idea is something like this: the Muskox People are raiders, and value strength and all that, and are rough and brutal folk in many aspects, but they usually live in relatively small extended family units where the whole idea of tyrannical despotism is basically impossible. If a leader acts beyond their authority, people will literally just pack up and leave and join another band, and there isn't a whole lot the would-be tyrant can do about it. Their leadership model is based more on personal charisma and evident competence rather than institutionalized descent and the like, imho. I am using the word "band" deliberately, since I imagine these groups to generally be smaller than an Orlanthi clan (though how big I can't say yet) - this is especially true in winter. I imagine there being a seasonal dynamic, where groups split up during winter in order to make better use of the widely dispersed grazing grounds on the higher points which are less snowy (this is the RW practice of Muskoxen), and in summer they can congregate in larger numbers in the river or marshy valleys, allowing for increased social interaction with kin and neighbors and even other Muskox strangers (a bit of an extrapolation and exaggeration of RW Muskox behavior). In winter the weather mostly provides them protection, while also allowing them to do winter raids with skis/snowshoes and their muskoxen, while in the summer their larger, more concentrated groupings allow for increased defense against retaliatory attacks. Of course, there is still the issue of troll or ice demon/giant raids in winter, and that's something I think I need to think about more. I've also thought about anti-horsemen tactics, and I've seriously been considering pairing the RW Muskox tactic of creating an outward circle of bulls with the "wagon circle" tactic seen in many RW cultures (notably Hussites and American colonizers, but also Romans against Huns and so on). This opens up for armoring the flanks or necks of the muskox with pavise-like shields of leather, to stop incoming arrows, stones and javelins, for example. It's pretty high concept, so might not be the most realistic thing in the world, but hey, I'm trying out some ideas. I've also got some thoughts on moraines in the landscape, and their significance (anything to add some diversity and points of interest to their lands which are mostly tundra and steppe). I was considering involving some giant stuff (it's very unformed still, but something about moiraines also being the lost fundaments of giant houses, or giant herd enclosures, or even outlines/cairns of dead giants) or something shamanic (travel lines for fetches, ritual defence against the glacier or even southerners, that sort of thing).

The issue I have with this is that both Babs and Voria are infertile (one due to vocation, another due to status as a maiden), while Eirithia is supremely fertile. I don't quite feel like it evens out. Additionally, I'm not sure if the same divisions would exist at the Asrelia/TKT-level of devolution as it does at the MG/Ernalda/Esrola, but admittedly it does look pretty in terms of symmetry.

Ooh, sugar. I read a monograph on the history of sugar back in uni, and it's a fascinating topic relating to all sorts of sides of society. It would be neat, I think, to make Teshnos an exporter of cane sugar. Mostly because it roughly fits the RW location of where sugarcane is believed to have originated (somewhere in southeast Asia, iirc), but also because... eyh, more Teshnos is good, amirite?

I had a bit of spare time in the last few days, and I tried putting some things together. These are summaries of stuff I've written in other threads and earlier post, some stuff I've never mentioned, and some new stuff. Nothing is really set in stone, except the Four Wind Kings concept, which I really like. It's obviously inspired by the Four Winds of the Storm Pentans, and the in-universe justification for it would be something like that the Storm Pentans and Muskox People have had some cultural exchange over the several centuries they've lived in proximity. The Four Wind Kings of the Muskox People don't entirely map onto the Four Winds of the Pentans though, with North Wind not being their analogue of Humakt, but rather their analogue of Valind. On the topic of analogueness, I am following the philosphy that while I am inspired by Heortling, Praxian, and other mythologies, I do not consider myself entirely beholden to the monomyth. There will be stuff here that does not quite fit, and honestly I think that's mostly a good thing. (That being said, I don't think I veer drastically away from it either). The first quoted box is an attempt at summarizing their pantheon. I haven't differentiated spirits from gods in it, so it might be a bit unclear which entities are more or less significant, but I suspect most will intuitively know (if it has to do with livestock, food, clothes, procreation, community, etc. it's probably more commonly worshipped/venerated than if it's not, you know how it goes). The second quoted box is an attempt to outline the beginnings of a mythical cycle for these folks. There are currently only two: the first one is a snippet of an origin myth, one that I don't expect to get too complicated, the sort of thing you tell your kids and maybe there is a more complicated version that's part of initiation rituals - and another that's their Darkness Survival Myth which also lays a lot of the groundwork for their current pantheon and social structure. Anyway, I hope this is interesting to folks. And feedback is always appreciated.

You have ordered...?

This is what I love in a villain - internally consistent, but practically nuts conclusions based on taking otherwise logical premises to their end. You know, like the Agent in Firefly, or Gavin Magnus in Heroes of Might & Magic 4 (wanted to mind control everyone to make world peace), or Thanos. (Granted, the *actual* logical consistency of their plans is pretty brittle, but the point is that they should at least sound somewhat sensical while at the same time triggering a primal hostility with the player/viewer/reader).

Incidentally, this could give us two pairs of Earth: A pair of Physical-Spiritual Fertile Earths ("Esrolia, Ernalda" for lack of a better term), and a pair of Physical-Spiritual Dark Earths ("Maran, Ty Kora Tek"). These dichotomies are obviously grossly oversimplified, and Earth isn't that much into dichotomies anyway, but, well, a square has four sides, so this could be seen as some kind of balance if that were a mythopoeic goal.

Animal Mothers are presented as daughters of Ernalda, but they could just as easily be daughters of Asrelia (especially given that Asrelia-Ernalda-Voria are in a sense a trinity). Animal Mothers obviously bring in the Beast Rune and the whole Hykim thing, but then the Growth/Fertility archetype brings in the Plant Rune and Aldrya/Flamal. Arguably, both Plant and Beast (and Man, or rather, the physical aspects regarding growth, reproduction in them) can be placed together in the Growth/Fertility archetype, so the distinction might be superfluous. This still gives us the "trinity" of Hard Earth, Fertile Earth, and Spiritual/Communal Earth though, and if there is a fourth... a Hidden/Transcendent Earth? (but then how would it be different from Spiritual Communal Earth except by degree?) Immature Earth? (Voria, spring? Feels a bit forced, I admit). Dead Earth? Not death as in infertility, but rather as in the deceased, the blessed dead. To Kora Tek. Rest. EDIT: This would mean pulling Hard/Bloody Earth and Dead/Hidden Earth apart from the kor/gor/tor complex. Not sure if that is the extrication you specifically wanted, though.

Headcanon: Early human settlers throughout Greatwood learnt of the term from the elves and applied it to earth beings themselves, including the goddess otherwise only known as Seshna. So, basically, it was an exonym turned secondary title.

The Xeotam Dialogues uses the term Likiti as a general term for Earth Runic beings. https://wellofdaliath.chaosium.com/home/catalogue/websites/moondesign-com/jeffs-old-blogs/xeotam-dialogues/ Note how Xeotam uses the terms "elemental" differently from how we might use it. To him, "Elemental" appears to be roughly analogous to the Powers(?) of the Cosmic Court, like Dame Darkness, Lord Light, etc. Although not 100%.

Unless of course it doesn't. I don't really see the point in retroactively criticising someone for how their campaign played out. Maybe the spirit took a liking to them or whatever. It's creative storytelling. Stuff happens.

That's what's in video gaming circles is called a "big oof."