Shiningbrow

The Discorporate Others is a nice ability, which would mean that only a dedicated tribal shaman is likely to have it (especially if it's only given by the tribal totem for tribal taboos), and thus means you wouldn't have lots of pseudo-shamans running around teaching others how to discorporate (e.g., Discorporation spell). The issue I see with the one week of fasting, meditation etc is that the proto-shaman then only knows how to do it after a week of fasting and meditating under the watchful gaze of the teacher. IRL, some people will have an Out Of Body experience first time, and then never again... others will spend months (years) and never have one. (Sure, Earth is less magical). So, one single week *alone* isn't really sufficient to make one an expert who can discorporate at will.. The mechanic of it being an ability works well both thematically and for the rules lawyers. And, without the time and cult limitations the Rune Spell brings with it.

I thought that was the purpose of the spell...

It could be an ability given (free of charge) after the apprentice has done the cave thing... Or perhaps the actual ability is that the Shaman can get Discorporate Others as a paid ability, and discorps the apprentice and takes them up to the Horned Man, and then the appreciate continues alone, getting the ability to discorporate themselves along the way. In.that way, a tribe can have multiple shamans, but only a few able to effectively teach all the new ones. A tribe with only one capable shaman is a very poor tribe. And losing that one person who can fight (and talk with) the spirits would be very bad. But, having lots of people doing it also isn't helpful to the tribe. (And runs the risk of one of the apprentices leaving with all the knowledge) But again, not being able to take other tribe members along on a journey seems to be not quite right... So, Discorporate Others makes sense, and fixes multiple problems in one go (and can thus allow for Discorporate Self)

Unless you're a well-trained alchemist with access to Moon Flowers, that means a strong likelihood of getting a drug addiction... At least for some time in your training.

The one thing I disagree with here is the idea that the skill/ability to discorporate only at the end of the year.. I think many are saying that it should either be a skill learned a lot earlier in the training, or an ability given by the Bad Man... (or at least on that quest somewhere). Achieving stable, regular discorporation is a skill in this world... Drugs initially help with unstable spirit journeys. Getting out is easy. Controlling it is not.

I'm sure you're trying to look at it from a Humakti perspective, but that's a total logic fail.

This is why I think it should be the skill that allows them to discoporate, not the spell. Or, a new shamanic ability that allows them to discorporate others.

Both of which still leave open the possibility of being able to traverse the spirit world without being a "full" shaman, including the ability to discorporate as a skill/ability. Having a fetch isn't required. Nor is having fought the Bad Man... The fact it's more dangerous is irrelevant.

This really all comes back to why I started the "What.is a shaman?" thread. Is it the ability to discorporate without use of spells or hallucinogens? Is it having a Fetch? The simplest fix (if it needs one, and if you're so deadset on stopping your young apprentice from being able to do so themselves) is actually to.make Discorporation the first shamanic ability acquired ... And possibly for free. However, personally, I'd just use Spirit Travel as a base discorporation ability. The apprentice can use it, just very unreliably. Also, nothing says the shaman needs to teach the skill....

But does your fake POW regenerate MPs? The others were somewhat obvious. (Not letting me double quote. )

Ummm... Obviously I mis-remembered (or ignored 😛

Yeah, I thought about writing that in at the time. Related to this is people's perplexity at the Enhance INT spell... It was always in RQ3, but not clearly easily available. Now it's specifically around, and easy for at least 1 cult to get their hands on... What's the problem here? If you have it at max (with max easy** munchkinnerry, then you'll have an INT if 27... for a short time). For me, the real question is what will be the effects of Enhance POW? (** easy meaning not including HQs or other divine gifts/intervention)

Make it an ability they can gain.

Because INT is a lot harder to raise than your other stats, and affects almost all of the skill categories (often at double the other stats). And unlike POW, it has no downside. Personally, I'd be inclined to put some caps in based on low scores. We already do for STR & DEX - weapons. (Yea, I'm more simulation-ist).

I think the idea that it's *only* a skill is the problem. I'd say it's representative of the mind's ability to store magical formulae correctly and persistently. Similar to a skill, but with significant differences. Language was used as a useful analogy because of the ease with which someone can mix them up and get them wrong. Perhaps better might be fully groking the grammar, which even native speakers don't always get right. Anyway, I can understand the designers needing to place some limitations, and sorcery has always been the INT based magic... As for inscriptions... It makes a bit of sense to me for a sorcerer to have a few spells in memory, and the rest they need to "meditate" on, or to have stored in the ubiquitous "wizard's staff/book" (or wand... Or hat... Or robe... Or gaudy ring...)

I think the idea that it's *only* a skill is the problem. I'd say it's representative of the mind's ability to store magical formulae correctly and persistently. Similar to a skill, but with significant differences. Language was used as a useful analogy because of the ease with which someone can mix them up and get them wrong. Perhaps better might be fully groking the grammar, which even native speakers don't always get right. Anyway, I can understand the designers needing to place some limitations, and sorcery has always been the INT based magic... As for inscriptions... It makes a bit of sense to me for a sorcerer to have a few spells in memory, and the rest they need to "meditate" on, or to have stored in the ubiquitous "wizard's staff/book" (or wand... Or hat... Or robe... Or gaudy ring...)

Just for reference regarding something already mentioned: p391 "Most sorcerers learn techniques of memorization that allow them to “forget” active knowledge of a spell by placing it in a recessed part of their memory. It takes about an hour of meditation to try to forget a spell, and the sorcerer must succeed with a Meditate skill roll.Once a spell has been forgotten, the spell can be recalled through meditation. It takes about three hours of meditation to try to recall a spell and the sorcerer must succeed with a Meditate skill roll. The sorcerer must have enough Free INT to know the recalled spell." For my 2cents worth, I don't have a big problem with the Free INT version of sorcery, particularly now we have Inscriptions that are easy to make. I can also bring in Spell Storing crystals, which for a sorcerer would be uber-awesome! They certainly fit thematically. I do understand why having more sorcery spells in mind lowers your ability to manipulate them... They are deep, esoteric formulae that the Gloranthan mind would find difficult to keep straight and untangled. Consider languages - easy to misstep and use the wrong grammar or word. So move that to highly complex physics or chemistry (and keep in mind the magical nature of spells... Manipulating the universe), and you should see why Free INT is important. The fewer the number of formulae you need to focus on keeping in mind, the easier to play (manipulate) with them. As for RQ3... At least we weren't limited in the number of skill checks you get... Now it's a petty little 5/season

Well obviously, she's Notchet done...

😁 Thinking about that, yes, Barntar should be much much bigger than Orlanth in number of Initiates. So, there should be far fewer Wind Voices than Ground Breakers (my newly invented term for Barntar priests ...) (Grrr, posting via a mobile is so annoying for formatting and inserting stuff!)

Ummm, wasn't that obvious? You already have a Healing spirit or 2 commanded to fight the disease spirit first, to take its MPs down to about 2 or 3, then enter into Spirit Combat with it... Option B would be all attacking it at once.

It'll be a soft cap... There will be ways to bypass it, e.g. Heroquesting (add some points to effective INT for Techniques or Runes, it get a "free" Technique or Rune that doesn't take up INT...) ETA: or a new enchantment - Enchant Rune... Which would be like a spell, but gives you access to the Rune if you haven't Mastered it...

Except... Wouldn't the munchkin shaman take a few levels of Soul Expansion, knowing they're going to use this exploit in the future... At least up to POW 24... Maybe a few points higher (obviously, using Pow as the burn stat)

Ummm, I thought not. They are "initiates" of the clan and tribe, but I thought that "Initiation" (big I) into the cult were much lower numbers. Granted, Orlanthi are much more likely to be Initiated, but not sure where your 85% comes from. (And. Even then, whether it's big I or little i) (P269 '"Most who belong to a cult are late members"). Regardless, Ernalda is a huge cult, and my example would have been better server by using a different cult...

What about ducks? And Ernaldans?

Actually, that's a *really* important point!!! It's *Initiates* and above who are required to pay their time and tithes, not the laity... And it's already been established that the rank of Initiate.and above isn't that high in Orlanthi culture. So, who's paying for the Priests and Rune Lords??? (Other than spell teaching....) I doubt there's enough Initiates for a the cults that have a priest (or 3!) except in the bigger towns. (Eg, how many Ernaldan priestesses in Clearwine? All of whom need to be paid for...)