French Desperate WindChild

yep and that why i asked (not for the trolls, I m on the same line than you) but for others : when you put so many "human" (or not) gods and goddesses I was a little bit disturbed as the only hell-s I "know" (so few) is the greek one, where you can meet your ancestors or anyone you know. I know you are ruthless and I will never try to upset you, your honor, for sure 😛 however does that mean that hells are "before" Styx ? (no I m not lost, I repeat !, and I have money to buy my ticket ) Or what you mean by "cross the Styx" is the capacity to be judged by Daka Fal, who is able to send you anywhere (even in one of these hells), but if you try to escape his judgement, at some point, you will "fall" randomly or not in one of these hells ?

In my opinion they will not meet him but the mask he wears (or someone else wears) so will they be able to recognize who is behind the mask ? still in my understanding (or my glorantha perhaps… probably…. Of course ?! ) if as all good initiates they believe they are now more their gods and less themselves there is a few chance to recognize him (if it is délecti) if they have built another perspective of what the heroplan / heroquest is and then know they are themselves and not their gods, they may have a better chance to see behind the « picture » Again that is just my idea/glorantha and I may change when I will read the rqg rules

I imagine that dead trolls souls may be met here but what about others ? Humans, merfolks, elves… in fact except darkness creatures and « heroquestors / gods » who will you meet ? Are all (part of) souls sent to some hell ? Or just bad people (Daka Fal’s judgement) ? Or … ?

Styx is able to defeat any god i would be surprised to see even a god learner doing anything with her

and a big one. I think the only solution is to be disguised / hidden (magicaly or not) or things like that to avoid a lot of options Murders should exist in glorantha and some should not be considered as "suicid mission" so there are some workaround to avoid the so powerful we (as irl people) see with the spirits or the spells

in my opinion, any "permantly" spell could provide from a gift of a deity (with geas / auths of course). I consider any deity could provide it, of course the spell must have some relationship for the god, but I don't consider that the spell must be proposed by the cult. For example I could propose a truesword for a a great orlanthi hero, not because Orlanth provide trusesword spell or because any subcult or anything else but just because Orlanth is a war god and uses a sword. In another hand there are two categories of deity there ... those who propose gift and geas as any [initiate / Rune lord / Runepriest ] by default (aka in the rules) those who don't (aka no gift in the rules) so I have in mind a kind of matrix : first dimension : does the god propose standard gifts or not G / NG second dimension : is the gift at the same level of a standard level (what yelmalio or humakt propose for example) or higher L / HL and here the result : G+L => even if not in the rules list, accessible by the same process (every year, etc...) G + HL => high devotion (like Solanthos story I just discovered today) or heroquest NG + L => high devotion or heroquest NG + HL => ( high devotion AND heroquest ) or very hard heroquest Note that heroquest could be some mundane activity but very very hard and important to the god, enough to let the God "open" the gate by itself and create a "very local heroplan" just the time to transform the weapon (or anything) into a gifted one

the shaman know where : in front of them as they are investigating the victims bodies (or murdering), and they know them, for the same reason !

the big issue, at least if you play with a GM like me : the summoner of a malia's spirit IS the ennemy Markets or Wards will target, even before the spirit is here. in the same way I don't - as a gm in "my" glorantha - see any community where a lot of people would enjoy to sacrifice pow for one baby. Or for a very specific campaign when ONE of the pc is the future hero of the prophecy but the others are then only normal guys (or a little bit more than normal) to serve and protect the "Hero". the issue then is would other players accept to have characters with -50 characteristics ^^ ? I already decided to not roll anything during the creation process, so having an unbalanced team would be only for one specific campaign and not a long one I thought the max of enhance INT was around 35-40 ? don't remember who did the calculation ( @Joerg maybe ?), of course for human people with the race max (21)... After what is able an heroquestor to obtain is another question but I don't know how we get the result (if it is Joerg, I just trusted him ^^ , I m a bit lazy ) so don't know if it is possible to get the 95 INT (or why it is impossible)

The way that reads to me, the soul sets out on its journey through the Underworld more or less immediately; it just takes seven days for it to reach its final destination (whereupon resurrection is no longer possible). yep probably I am now "tainted" by the knowledge in this forum another point hard to understand is that your soul as a lot of parts so my (own) interpretation your soul needs one week to travel to the next part But this travel is not just a move, until you are totally in the "afterlife" *, a part of you (spirit) are here near the body and the rest, the part who will be "judge" is in the x place of the travel. Once this part of the soul is at least "judged", you start the rest of your life in the other worlds, and the spirit, last trace of your mundane disappear (or become an empty / unnamed spirit without any memory of you, as everything is beyond . that's a reason why there is this trauma, too many changes, and parts are forgotten * or after - lives it seems but not sure that you may be found in different places

our glorantha may vary : yes first week the soul is near the body depends on you, the time, etc... but first week... now... if the murder(s ?) are made with a shaman (or a shaman among the murderers), it is easy to no let the deads speak: the shaman sees them, bind them, and now they are off until your pcs find the enchantments... Of course it is a blasphemy (some would say chaotic) : the spirits cannot join the death places so a lot of people would be at least angry, the family, the clan, the victims cults, the death cults (imagine a team of both humakti and ty kora tek, of course protected by bab'sisters... a nightmare !) so , there is an indication if you cannot join the spirits : find the shaman ! (other options are possible, but it is even fewer in my opinion). as you say, it is for a specific "boring" cult (2nd degree if you see the white bull campaign in youtube) now what could say the spirits of the dead ? remember they are in the other side... passing the frontier is a big deal, that is not just a travel, you lose one "dimension", your body. You see another one (or more) If you ask /summon them, they will be angry: angry against you because you force them to pass again the frontier, against the murderers probably... so they would like revenge against against.. but what have they seen ? a shadow ? a disguised person ? a lot of people so many (> 3 !) they are unable to describe any one ? so if you want to roll, try a INT roll, maybe a POW roll to, to see if the spirit is confused or not. If you want the spirit to be more or less confused... the spirit is more or less confused. that is another reason to not resurrect people... people don't want to come back and if they are back, they are not the same, so you don't get back the lost, you get back a new one, with memory, for sure, with same shape of course, but with some trauma. If you(the clan/tribe/...) decide to resurrect someone, it is not for the dead, not for the family, not for pleasure. It is because that seems the best choice, in your opinion, to "save" the clan/tribe.

oh I make a big difference between religion and reality / presence of god(s) 🙂 there is no reason than gloranthan couldn't have faith and believe in gods even if they can't join them (for any reason, new compromise, because they aren't any more, because the god plane is now severed from the mundane world, etc...) another option I have* is there are "new gods"... not the same nature than the previous one but "just" some mortal who achieved during the big change ( 3rd -> 4th age) or before to get some "resistance to time in mundane world" and other powers a god may have... Zzabbur (with his name or another one), could become one of them (after all he is not a god like the previous were, so why not be venerated as himself, or as a kind of nature force, or as a old god name ) * If I succeed to write my "novel" (i m not a writer 😛 )

yep mortals cannot see/interacts with gods so they think they are "dead", but they may just be too far, elsewhere

of course yes ! with , I think a difference : "violence is always an option" is not "violence and corruption are always two options " 😛 but of course that's hypocrisy i understand Arachne Solara as the organizer of this. And of course a lot of things may be consider as myth (not "history") or metaphorically ( was a net a real/magical net or just "seduction / love" ) and all options are open : was AS a chaotic agent luring the gods ? was AS a non chaotic god who was lured herself ? was AS really convinced it was the only way to save the world ? was the result what she expected ? Was she corruped when she ates the chaotic god ? Was it a voluntary sacrifice (by both parts) in all cases some "things" from both "sides" (if we may consider there is a chaos side, or even a "gods" side) were needed to be "consume"/"sacrifice"/ ... to change the world. did each side negotiate or were forced to do (or part of each side, nothing say everyone had to experiment the same way) ? were there other possibilities ? or do even negotiation or obligation make any sense at this "time" ? what I like in glorantha is this mix between fate and will. We fought I won (not a mistake 😛 )

I don't consider Time as result of compromise like "before Time there was no time" maybe for the same reasons than @JRE just because I want to not become unsane so for me Time is the period we know : there are regular cycles, as you describe (day/night, season, etc...) and probably, before "Time" there was no cycle, so what means "time", even irl in a bronze age society if you are not able to have any evidence of "hours", "days", etc.... how hard it would be to determine "what time is it" when the only reference you have is the birth and the death of people you know ? probably the same than sending you in the deep space, somewhere there no "near sun", "no near planet" nothing you can see rotate (-> the cycle). Easier for me to imagine it as I even don't recognize any star, unable to see if this one has "moved" or not and maybe time before "Time" is not a linear thing (but again what does linear mean if there is no regular cycle ?) but there is another point I have been considering very interesting since some months. Something I didn't notice before.. It was Jeff who said (i paraphrase sorry) : " the great compromise was a compromise between the gods and the chaotic gods" that wasn't only the gods (aka non chaotic) who decided on their own side to do something and there is one of my character (scholar) hypothesis... the great compromise was a trick from the chaotic gods. What is the result ? 1) the world exists 2) the gods are not anymore free in the world 3) the chaotic gods exist. "where is the trick ?" some may ask what if there were no compromise ? Why did the god the compromise ? to save the world, right ? So if there were no compromise, there would be no world. If there were no world, everything would have joined the chaos, the oblivion... everything... EVERYTHING... even the chaotic gods... so a compromise is something where all parties lose something... the gods lost the leadership of the world... but what did the chaotic gods lose ? You may meet cacodemon and see him doing what he wants.. So yes a weaker cacodemon... perhaps... but what he lost is ridiculously few compared to the gods... And see age after age... chaos is still here, and strong... but not the "full chaos", not the "oblivion"... just those chaos, refusing any authority except violence, doing what they want when they want if nothing more powerful is present... And the most powerful entities, the gods, are now partially "out of the game" Considering we save the world every age is just a lie. the world is safe because it is what chaotic gods want.. They don't want to lose what they have, they don't want to join chaos. If we want to change the world we have to remove from the world the chaotic god... and maybe... to do that... we have to remove all the gods from OUR world

yes I have something like that, but for the lunar cults (the "new gods" : seven mothers and affiliate ) not all the population (lodril, river, earth, etc...) but nothing more precise, and nothing I would bet on

I talked about the redmoon cultists as exception 🙂 but even 1% of HeartLands seems to me very high : how many (%) farmers (or any workers even warriors) in the heartlands ? how many (%) would be illuminated (near 0 ?) how many (%) nobles / scholars / priests ? then how many (%) would be illuminated (5% ? 10 % ? not so much ?) note that I have no real idea, I ask about your figure but I have no source to demonstrate anything I think that illumination (as "the power breaking the limits of the pc" or "the power calming chaos" - or not - ) is too quickly the main point during our irl discussions. Should be an addendum (" and there are few illuminates who may have another option" ) more than the first focus on our analysis.

in my opinion, there are thanatari and krasht human supporters in the empire, as you may find them anywhere the only difference I see with anti-chaos policy country is some may be convinced by the Empire policy so we have secretive people you may meet - some considering the empire must be helped because the empire serves the cause - some considering they can take advantage to the empire for their own benefit (or their cult benefit), being "officialy" identified as "licensed" chaos worshipper (of course officially does'nt mean "hey I am a chaos worshipper" when you introduce yourself to anyone...) - some considering they can take advantage to the empire for their own benefit (or their cult benefit), hidding what they worship, but not trying to corrupt ?! the empire until the destruction. - some considering the empire is like any other country / community / society: it is just their "prey" I don't see smart chaotic people following all the same path. They have their cult goals, but for the rest, they may have different perception, strategy, etc... and i don't see illumination as a key word in the situation (some may be illuminated, some no) In fact I don't see Illumination as a key word at all for "groups" (except arkati, and red moon cultists) Of course you may meet individuals, but pretty sure there are more thanatari than illuminates in any location

that's why I now use rqg material I have (not the gods, unfortunately) to understand the glorantha I play. What was written decades ago may be still good or should be forgotten (to understand rqg background I mean, of course some may stay in antoher version if it fits their taste better than rqg) in all cases, for me, if two "rules" contradict themselves, I take rqg as primary your vinga has a big story probably, she did not start with all her powers and gears. You may meet a odaylan with a lot of experience, some heroquest powers and tattoos, enchants, spirits, ... that grants other advantages it is hard to compare two characters at different steps of their experience, , with differents companions able or not to buff the pc, and with different GM more or less generous, interpreting the world differently

I follow others, "demon" is some "not friendly otherworld entity" and may have a lot of shapes, elements and powers. If I had to manage a sorcerer like that I would : - create a race of demons "the darkest river-claws are some children of Styx" with powers I want - create the spell [ summon(darkest river-claws) ] = - let the sorcerer invoke the good size depending on the opponents ( 3d6 ? 4d6 ?...) to have the challenge's level you want. If it is a climax, a smart sorcerer would have time and opportunity to summon an entity stronger than rules allow pc. the sorcerer may have some apprentices (maybe killed by the demon before it was dominated, ) or some friends (a hook for another scenario, later... "you killed my friend !!! "). There is always an explanation. and at the end, decide if it is good for the story to give them name and even spell (is there some book to learn the spell or killing the sorcerer brings of losing the knowledge ?)

my point is not to fit exactly with the background there but if you consider that your player can see her character being a sorcerer after 7 years (in game) you have only one acceptable choice : propose your table to not play these 7 years. I'm not able to say a player "in 7 years (= 35 adventures ?) you will be able to cast one spell, now let's play the next season..." 😛 so i try to simulate the "waste of time to study" with one year (aka 5 adventures ?)

I see a difference : when the aeolian wizards start (adventuring) they know the runes/techniques AND some spells > 30% those are the standard wizards you may create an adventurer knowing only the theory (runes and techniques) without any practical spells (well without a reasonable chance of success) but this one would certainly not be acclaimed wizard but in all cases before allowing the first technique , I would request maybe one year to learn « philosophy » (any cult knowledge + read/write) of course finding something in some more magical plane (hero / logic / etc…) may « enlighten » the pc (not as a illuminate just oh I understand now)

a difference with me : In my opinion Odayla is not a hunter god, he is a god who hunts, of course, but that is no its "definition" phase 1) young boy, he was teached by his mother how to live and, as son of Lady of the wilds, he provides useful material to survive outside. I think that is his best talents. So there are hunters who follow his path ( without any technology by the way, mum has not after all). For the same reason / right, he partipates to the great hunt. But that doesn't mean he is mainly a hunter. is it the same for war gods ? then why a war god expects some of his followers to no wear armor on random location ? is it for efficency ? no the gods are the gods, they acts as they acts (capacities, passions, value, nature) and they provide "magic" they have. But again, that doesn't mean their followers must do exactly what their gods do, must use exactly what their god used. A bear hunter can use bow, just does not ask the god to provide bow magic, and manage to improve it (if they want) with other people : phase 2) After all Odayla is Orlanth son, and when, adult or strong boy, he went back to his father's community, he was able to discuss with people not like him, and able to learn from them (raid, bow, spear, sword, anything provided by the "air tribe"). No reason his worshippers are not able to do it. They are the wild near / in the civilization, they may merge both, but their "first" power is wildness, they are bear with human face or human with bear skin. We may even seen it as Orlanth was the hunter, Lady of the wild the hunted - in a bear shape - and when they "meet" the result was one being Odayla their son. After all a wise person said :

this point is for me very important to "judge" a cult we should not focus on what provide the cult but more on what provide the culd and its circles / communities / ... we should even not focus on what is the "title" of the god Odayla and yinkin worshippers may be hunters but that is not for that if they follow their gods. That because they have affinities with their way of (wild) life. They are attracted by less civilization than others. And of course among them we may find "professional" hunters. But we may find bandit too, lovers (for the cat), thieves, or just wild survivors. And all of them need to know how to survive alone sometimes, to not be found by wives / husbands / milice / owners... So yes all have sometimes to hunt, but they are not all hunters. But let's focus on our hunters.. And for those who want to use bow (as said I think a lot use bow as secondary weapon, when you are able to ambush from a tree or to challenge a bear with hands, some don't need to waste too much time with bow *). They walk in the wild, they meet the other people who are in the wild too... Of course they discuss, of course they exchange services, helps, news... How many of them will say... "ah sorry I'm a bowman, but I will not ask my friend the shaman to teach me how to shoot multiple arrows. I like her but you know.... no... never" in a wild circle there is no difference to learn spirit magic from your cult or from some friends outside the cult. You make a deal and you get it ** And maybe this bear-guy, who at the end finally love to hunt will join Foundchild in addition to his survival way to be inititated to what provides to hunter * but that's the same with spear (bladesharp..) or other weapons. ** and that's the same in other places, maybe your cult doesn't provide what you need, but there are guilds or individuals, associated or friendly cults, or any "other" community. And you can have business with them, if it is not forbidden, it is allowed.

you don't understand 😛 Yelmalio, by luck, intelligence and skills, survived when the other gods were dead but one day, the other gods came back from Hell and here is the issue and the explanation Yelmalio, the only one, of course seduced a lot of wives, of course as there was no competitor, and life (and lust) must go on. but they came back... on his left, he saw Lodril, what can he do to compete with big oak spear ?! on his right, he saw Orlanth, what can he do to compete with a poet warrior king ?! ... confine his wives so you understand what provide Yelmalio to his worshippers .. ability to keep their wives at home (command hawk, the day, when they work outside to alert them if their wives are suspect), survey them the night (catseye) to follow them if they did something. And sunbright to show the fault to all and obtain a rightful judgement you have even the magic anti-competitor like cloud clear against Orlanth... Yelmalio was a very powerful war god... but too jalous now, he is focused on other affairs

I agree