Yelmalio again or Why I Ruined Your Glorantha Redux.

[Karlak One-eye]

On 2/14/2024 at 9:45 AM, radmonger said:

That's a consequence of saying Elmal is a subcult of Yelmalio, when it would be just as metaphysically valid to say Yelmalio is a subcult of Elmal.

Kind of like saying America to mean the USA, so America is one of the countries in America. Which does rather bring things back to the Monrogh Doctrine. Establishing the principle that all those different temples, even the ones we don't politically control, should share a name. And therefor are all rightly considered independent from the old Yelmic Imperial cult.

 

Many plus points for “Monrough Doctine”!

[Darius West]

On 8/24/2019 at 3:26 PM, Jeff said:

Greg once told tell me that to keep the goddess Glorantha alive and eternally youthful, he needed to be an Arkati Trickster Shaman. Now that that duty has fallen to me, I've donned my coyote mask and taken on the role. It is fitting that I've decided to revisit Greg's heroquest to discover Elmal, only this time to reject that god in favour of restoring the god he had supplanted - Yelmalio.

Good decision.  About time too.  Elmal never went away, and is specifically attacked by Yelmalio in a hero quest as sunny boy lite wanted to steal some of Elmal's fire powers.  Elmal is a Thunder Brother too.  They are more than just Orlanth subcults.

[Mao]

20 hours ago, Tatterdemalion Fox said:

spittin fax

I'd like to point out how in explaining the appeal of Elmal versus Yelmalio, at no point did you reference the difference in magic or Elmal having 'fire' where Yelmalio doesn't have it. We don't just like Elmal because we want to use fire magic, there is a very clear difference of worldview and psychological outlook that makes them attractive to different types of people. Which makes the idea that 'But Yelmalio is more true and complete and that's the way it is.' so frustrating.

I also like the idea of Elmali being among the Orlanthi, as it provides a modified worldview that can still be in concert with most of Orlanthi life. Every redblooded Orlanthi male (or Vingan) potentially being a riotious blustery blowhard who just can't wait to rustle themselves some Cattle can be contrasted with the more sober 'Watchman' like Elmali who can be just as necessary to a stable Clan/Tribe life. I see it as being a different path of Masculinity in Orlanthi society that really appeals to me personally. (Not that this will matter too much because I'm going to be the GM and not a player so I won't get to RP this but well you don't always get what you want). Though I should stress while I know Women can be Yelmalians I have no idea if Female Elmali were or are a thing.

I do prefer Elmal over Yelmalio. I don't hate Yelmalio anymore but I don't like how his adherents are presented in a distinctly unsympathetic way. To make Yelmalio more sympathetic you really have to emphasize the 'suffering God' aspects of him and how his purity and justice and truth are things people can grasp onto to keep them going rather than just something that makes the Sun Domers super culturally arrogant. That just makes them extremely lame and unattractive. Maybe there's some funny joke buried in about hypocritical cultural arrogance or something but whatever the joke is I don't find it that funny. It just makes them un-cool.

Also I do know about the Sartarite cultural context that led to the Sun Dome Sartarite County being a thing and part of that is Elmali breaking with the Orlanthi and that Yelmalio was the solution to the trouble to prevent Civil War and Kinstrife. Nevertheless, I think the idea of the loyal Elmali Watchman is a powerful Gloranthan Archetype that could be VERY EASILY presented to the players as something to slot into as opposed to 'Phalangite who doesn't fight in a Phalanx'. It's really just an open goal there to be taken.

[Tatterdemalion Fox]

4 hours ago, Mao said:

I'd like to point out how in explaining the appeal of Elmal versus Yelmalio, at no point did you reference the difference in magic or Elmal having 'fire' where Yelmalio doesn't have it. We don't just like Elmal because we want to use fire magic, there is a very clear difference of worldview and psychological outlook that makes them attractive to different types of people. Which makes the idea that 'But Yelmalio is more true and complete and that's the way it is.' so frustrating.

I’m glad you agree. I personally am fine with presenting Elmal as having “bled out his heat” while defending the last people; the archetype, and the twist on Yelmalio it represents, is more important than the fire.

4 hours ago, Mao said:

(Not that this will matter too much because I'm going to be the GM and not a player so I won't get to RP this but well you don't always get what you want). Though I should stress while I know Women can be Yelmalians I have no idea if Female Elmali were or are a thing.

The secret of being the GM is that you absolutely do get to RP this, just through the lens of the Glorantha that you present to the players. Your take on Sartarite sun-worship might matter immensely to the tale you choose to tell.

(According to the now non-canon Sartar: Kingdom of Heroes, Elmali can only be men, though women can worship him through Redaylda. I think there’s space to explore Heortling gender roles there. To stand guard is an inherently Air-gendered action; to care for the horses, Earth-gendered.)

4 hours ago, Mao said:

To make Yelmalio more sympathetic you really have to emphasize the 'suffering God' aspects of him and how his purity and justice and truth are things people can grasp onto to keep them going rather than just something that makes the Sun Domers super culturally arrogant.

The Yelmalio image I keep circling back to in my own writing is the idea of Yelmalio tearing his red cloak into strips atop the Hill of Gold to use as fuel for a watch fire. That’s sacrificial imagery I’d use for Yelmalions: give up whatever it takes to carry out your duty.

[Rodney Dangerduck]

6 hours ago, Mao said:

To make Yelmalio more sympathetic you really have to emphasize the 'suffering God' aspects of him and how his purity and justice and truth are things people can grasp onto to keep them going rather than just something that makes the Sun Domers super culturally arrogant.

I think that boat has sailed.  There is just too much official-ish material where Yelmalio is presented as lame insufferable pretentious sexist deluded arrogant jerks that few players would want to play.  Like @Mao, I don't get the "joke".

A real shame - in RQ2 and Griffin Mountain their cult quirks come off as sympathetic and PC-friendly. Rurik and Starnia Stormrender are appealing and human characters, not some kind of bad joke.

[Runeblogger]

16 minutes ago, Rodney Dangerduck said:

  There is just too much official-ish material where Yelmalio is presented as lame insufferable pretentious sexist deluded arrogant jerks that few players would want to play.

For example? 🤔

[Malin]

Once we finish editing, me and a friend of mine have a massive Sun County supplement coming out (Life and Traditions Under the Sun Dome) dealing with Yelmalian culture, what makes the people of Sun County tick, and how to play and have fun within that kind of (in many people's eyes) extreme culture.

Quote

Come foreigner, visit Sun County, the only nation in Glorantha that passed The Solitude of Testing. See the living light of Sun Dome, travel the easily accessible road network, enjoy our surplus of food, our stoic unity, and our fully adequate culture. Come for the holy days, witness our drill parades, leave when we tell you to! Sun County - the safest, hardest working and most envied nation in Glorantha. You wish you were us! (Sun County Travel Bureau)

 

Edited February 18 by Malin

[Shiningbrow]

On 2/17/2024 at 11:14 PM, Darius West said:

Elmal is a Thunder Brother too.

?? Where's this?

[Shiningbrow]

On 2/18/2024 at 7:36 AM, Rodney Dangerduck said:

On 2/18/2024 at 12:29 AM, Mao said:

To make Yelmalio more sympathetic you really have to emphasize the 'suffering God' aspects of him and how his purity and justice and truth are things people can grasp onto to keep them going rather than just something that makes the Sun Domers super culturally arrogant.

I think that boat has sailed.  There is just too much official-ish material where Yelmalio is presented as lame insufferable pretentious sexist deluded arrogant jerks that few players would want to play.  Like @Mao, I don't get the "joke".

No offence intended to either of you, but that comes across as a little to 'woke' to me - making cults (including/especially favourite ones) fit into a 'players should like the cult because it reflects our more modern values'. (sort of reminds me of how Babeester Gor has been 'tamed', and the eating of trollkin is sort of overlooked, and how slavery has been reduced).

It makes for much less of the moral ambiguity that RQ was trying to get across.

Obviously, YGWV.

[Shiningbrow]

On 2/18/2024 at 5:22 AM, Tatterdemalion Fox said:

According to the now non-canon Sartar: Kingdom of Heroes, Elmali can only be men, though women can worship him through Redaylda. I think there’s space to explore Heortling gender roles there. To stand guard is an inherently Air-gendered action; to care for the horses, Earth-gendered.)

Just have something like a Vinga situation... (but not the crappy "But it's really a male Orlanth in disguise - because obviously women can't really be warriors" - keep the 'yes - was, is, and always will be, a separate female goddess in her own right!')

[Rodney Dangerduck]

5 hours ago, Shiningbrow said:

No offence intended to either of you, but that comes across as a little to 'woke' to me - making cults (including/especially favourite ones) fit into a 'players should like the cult because it reflects our more modern values'. (sort of reminds me of how Babeester Gor has been 'tamed', and the eating of trollkin is sort of overlooked, and how slavery has been reduced).

It makes for much less of the moral ambiguity that RQ was trying to get across.

Obviously, YGWV.

You have a great point!

I think the issue is that other cults and cultures (mainly Sartar & Prax) have been updated to reflect modern values.

Perhaps when the new Solar books come out, they will also be updated to be more appealing.  Or at least less repressive.

[mfbrandi]

6 hours ago, Shiningbrow said:

but not the crappy
“But it's really a male Orlanth in disguise
— because obviously women can’t really be warriors”

You see, sometimes it is good to be politically correct.

As for Yelmalio, I see him as an anti-Christ figure: JC dies to save “us” — Jesus died for somebody’s sins, but not mine — but although YO suffers, he does not die and so does not rise again. We can say (impishly?) that JC = the son = the father = the sun, but IMHO, it is misleading to think of YO in that way: Yelmalio ≠ the son ≠ the father, Yelmalio ≠ the sun. And Antirius is just a fiction, a preposterous bit of propaganda. In his refusal to be blown out, YO can also be seen as an anti-Buddha and so an anti-illumination figure.

There is plenty of room for a Yelmalio who is not a cuddly, touchy-feely god, but who is still “modern” and not a pillar of the patriarchy, no?

Yes, I know my Glorantha has varied, but that is the point of Glorantha, so long as the variations — like the orthodoxy — are not forced on everyone else. 😉

Edited February 19 by mfbrandi
fixed inequalities

[Malin]

I think for me, part of the fun with Glorantha is playing in cultures with less modern sensetivities. Trying to figure out what a culture would be like once you investigate the surface statements and see how everything fits together. Yelmalio (Sun County) culture has been fascinating to delve into like that, trying to find out all the hows and the whys of everything.

[Techpriest]

Alright, feel free to correct me here but one of the complaints you see with the whole yelmalio elmal thing with RQG is there's no quick and fast rules for just making a follower of Elmal as the cult skills of Yelmalio seem off. Wanna know the simple fixes I did to make it more fitting to Elmal?

It's just changing four things. Replace the Pike cult skill with Ride. Replace the Long Spear cult skill with Short Spear (because they're light cavalry), replace the associated cult of Yelm with that of Orlanth (Who gives Shield like Yelm does but doesn't give Sunspear, obviously), and replace the "don't help orlanthi" with "Don't help the enemies of Orlanth" in the geases. 

Boom. You now have a new subcult. It's that simple. Elmal is the Horse/Thane god aspect of Yelmalio for the Orlanthi. He's traditionalist in terms of association with the Heortling culture so he plays a bit nicer with Orlanth than the standard Yelmalio cult. But he doesn't really offer that much different to the Yelmalio cult - which is intentional. This is the cult of the southern Heortlings who had to play nice with the Only Old One and were separated from the Sairdites for generations and weren't the friendliest with the EWF (who patronized the Yelmalio Cult). 

Kargzant? Same thing. Replace Pike and Long Spear with Ride and Lance. Add in the Arrow of Light Rune Spell to his cult list. Swap out the Yelmalio starting skills to Ride +20%, Celestial Lore +10%, and Speak Other Language (Firespeech) +15%. He's associated with Dendara (Or La-Ungariant) instead of with Ernalda and she provides Bless Animal instead. With these simple changes, he's now right at home on the plains of Pent, a god of Horse Nomads. He's a warrior god, a cultural leading god, and he offers them a magic that competes with the sedentary peoples and is remembered by them due to his actions in the grey age that other cults didn't experience (the celestial host). 

Now why did I do this? Why these skills? Why these changes? 

• I wanted these subcults which are part of different cultures to feel different. For the Orlanthi, Elmal was their connection to horses. It's likely over the next century or so this elmal subcult will be absorbed into the mainline Yelmalio cult of the Sun Dome County temple, and some of the Elmal traits (probably replacing Long Spear with Ride) will become part of that cult. Each Sun Dome has a different independent strain of the cult, that adopts local ideas to some degree. Why no Ride in Prax? Horses aren't welcome! Why not in Saird? Because there's the mainline Yelm cult there too and more influence from the aspect of Antirius. 
• Changing around the geases to a cultural lens makes sense for Yelmalio. He's as I've said before, one of the most widespread gods across Genertela. It's true he was the enemy of many of Orlanth's enemies. Elmal is his aspect as an ally of Orlanth against the Darkness - so it's not a contradiction at all with the core of Yelmalio. 
• It's fun. Cultural differences impacting cults is important. What the cult of Orlanth is like in Sartar, isn't what it's like in Prax, or Saird. 

Jeff can feel free to correct me, but I'm pretty sure he's stated something similar in regards to 'how to play Elmal' before when people asked, along with how cults change over time.  

Edited February 19 by Techpriest

[radmonger]

Is it actually stated anywhere explicitly in the rules that your initial  cult skills come from your selected subcult?

I mean, it's common sense that, under normal circumstances, a PC would be actually brought up, initiated into and educated by one specific subcult. And so,  if they are different from the default, that is the cult skills you would get.

If you read threads like this, it is pretty obvious that quite a lot of people fundamentally do not get how the RQ:G rules about  deity, cult, subcult and clan are intended to work. Some even seem to think that if Elmal and Yelmalio do, in some deep metaphysical sense, share an identity, then the culture and even personalities of their followers must be the same. Or that a political reorganization of clans and tribes changes something about the nature of a deity.

As I suggested above, the simple word subcult bears a lot of the blame, as it implies a hierarchical relationship that doesn't necessarily exist.

Things might be a lot less confusing if the rules were like:

Quote

PCs are initiated into a cult. Some cults worship the same deity, as indicated by the name in the Worship [name] skill taught by that cult. Within a cult, most temples and some shrines are independent, or supported by a clan, tribe or city. Others are subservient to some higher cult authority.

However, given Chaosium are 4 books deep into  publishing the 11-volume Cults of Runequest, such a rules update is unlikely. So the only real option is to explain. the rules as they do exist.

 

 

[Techpriest]

6 minutes ago, radmonger said:

Is it actually stated anywhere explicitly in the rules that your initial  cult skills come from your selected subcult?

I mean, it's common sense that, under normal circumstances, a PC would be actually brought up, initiated into and educated by one specific subcult. And so,  if they are different from the default, that is the cult skills you would get.

If you read threads like this, it is pretty obvious that quite a lot of people fundamentally do not get how the RQ:G rules about  deity, cult, subcult and clan are intended to work. Some even seem to think that if Elmal and Yelmalio do, in some deep metaphysical sense, share an identity, then the culture and even personalities of their followers must be the same. Or that a political reorganization of clans and tribes changes something about the nature of a deity.

As I suggested above, the simple word subcult bears a lot of the blame, as it implies a hierarchical relationship that doesn't necessarily exist.

Things might be a lot less confusing if the rules were like:

However, given Chaosium are 4 books deep into  publishing the 11-volume Cults of Runequest, such a rules update is unlikely. So the only real option is to explain. the rules as they do exist.

 

 

YGMV, but I would argue there's several kinds of subcult. There's subcults like Yelmalio/Elmal/Kargzant/Antirius or Tolat/Shargash - these are distinct by region and culture, but are overall, worshiping the same divine figure. You can argue which one is the 'primary' cult and that's more a case of worshiper numbers than anything else, and they're not going to always get along. Like, hoo boy - an Elmali and a Yelmalian are likely to get into some very big arguments over the nature of who their god is associated with, what his deeds are (and which matter), and so on, while the Kargzant worshiper is going to see everyone else as just barely non-people (because cultural tie ups) and want to murder the Antirius cultist, and the Antirius cultist is going to call everyone else ignorant savages who need to submit fully to the glory of Yelm. Tolat and Shargash followers are also likely to murder one another I feel. There's probably a similar divide between Yu-Kargzant and Yelm priests. 

There's the Orlanth subcults - they're distinct enough you could argue they're different gods (and some cultures even sort of see them as such) but the two get along and affirm one another. Belonging to one gives you power in the other. Even when talking about Vigna, nobody denies she's close, extremely close in some way to Orlanth, either him in female form or his favorite daughter, to the point the difference really doesn't matter outside of the arguments of theologically inclined Orlanthi. 

Last there's the true subcults - these are minor gods worshiped as parts of larger cults. Odalya, Yinkin, etc. can fall into this. They can have their own distinct cults that are separate, but often they are folded into the larger cult of Orlanth worship. 

[radmonger]

Well, priests and rune lords of Orlanth Adventurous and Thunderous within Sartar are religiously subordinate to the Chief Priest of Orlanth Rex, aka the Prince of Sartar. So loyalty to the Prince restricts their desire to be independent, and the magical power of the Prince restricts their ability to be so.

Wheras godtalkers of Barntar within most of the Lunar provinces are (as I understand it) religiously subordinate to the local Ernalda Priestess. So if they were to unlawfully (i.e. unsuccessfully) rebel, they would be exiled from the clan.

But all belong to cults that worship aspects of Orlanth, and would be accepted at each others temples. And none worship Ernalda, or the Red Emperor.

Using the rules as written, I think you can describe that situation. It just needs you to be 100% consistent about using the terms sub cult, associated cult and subservient cult correctly.

Good luck with that.

 

[Shiningbrow]

On 2/17/2024 at 6:11 AM, Karlak One-eye said:

Many plus points for “Monrough Doctine”!

Since they lost the fire aspect of their rune, it sort of makes it a Cold War between them...