Yelmalio again or Why I Ruined Your Glorantha Redux.

[Tindalos]

21 minutes ago, JonL said:

In particular, it is no great personal triumph or achievement for Vinga to do anything that Orlanth can if she is in fact herself Orlanth in a literal sense (rather than in the symbolic way that Barntar is sort-of Orlanth in some contexts). Orlanth being as awesome as Orlanth is expected, unremarkable. I like it better when she is simply that awesome in her own right.

One way to use that is to assume that Orlanth isn't actually that badass.

I know, this sounds like heresy, but if we take it through. He's not the most magical god of the air, that can be Kolat. He's not the best fighter, that's Humakt (at least now Vadrus has gone. Although Humakt and Stormbull might not agree on that.) He's not the best talker, that's Issaries; or the most wise, who's Lhankor Mhy.

Orlanth is the one who doesn't have these gifts... but knows someone who might. He's not ruling through right of birth, but through competition. So when she's Vinga, of course there's a contest. Of course Vinga proves themselves at something new, something even Orlanth didn't know was possible.

 

And this is of course, why although Orlanth is Storm King, there are some places he doesn't rule in. Esrolia is where the Grandmothers outthought him, in Caladraland Veskarthan proved himself most worthy. In Prax, Urox defended the land when Orlanth wasn't there.

Because -- at least there -- they proved themselves better.

[Qizilbashwoman]

22 minutes ago, Tindalos said:

One way to use that is to assume that Orlanth isn't actually that badass.

also that they judged Vinga by her apparent gender. a narrative of "breasts don't equal Earth rune, my dudes"

[Jeff]

I'd like to confine this thread to discussions of Yelmalio and Elmal. If folk want to talk about Vinga, please create a new thread.

[gochie]

I'm so very thankful that you're starting to give the "facts" instead of 20 different versions for each myth.

 

I understood the real-life similarities of the multi-version approach to myths, but as you say, it's not great for explaining a game and its rules to newcomers. Plus, I always thought in-game myths might (should?) not have tons of versions if the gods were actually real and could be "contacted" by mortals. 

[Qizilbashwoman]

4 minutes ago, gochie said:

I'm so very thankful that you're starting to give the "facts" instead of 20 different versions for each myth.

 

I understood the real-life similarities of the multi-version approach to myths, but as you say, it's not great for explaining a game and its rules to newcomers. Plus, I always thought in-game myths might (should?) not have tons of versions if the gods were actually real and could be "contacted" by mortals. 

hmmm i mean but remember that gods aren't any more real than what the worshippers believe, so that throws some kink in the idea of a platonic Orlanth

[Eff]

1 hour ago, Qizilbashwoman said:

hmmm i mean but remember that gods aren't any more real than what the worshippers believe, so that throws some kink in the idea of a platonic Orlanth

And I mean, even if there is a Platonic Form of Orlanth, that form also has to incorporate the Orlanth Storm at a very minimum, which, uh, complicates any kind of anthropomorphicity. 

Perhaps there was a God Learner sect that attempted to reconcile this, and ended up producing a subset of puppet theater where a little hurricane glove puppet stabs a little sun glove puppet before wooing a little earth cube glove puppet....

[Joerg]

6 hours ago, Eff said:

And I mean, even if there is a Platonic Form of Orlanth, that form also has to incorporate the Orlanth Storm at a very minimum, which, uh, complicates any kind of anthropomorphicity.

Pluripresence makes such shape considerations pretty much moot. Nobody complains that a dryad has two bodies - that of a nubile humanoid female, and that of a tree. (Other nymphs may have a meadow, a mountain, or a dark place as their other body.)

The more powerful the entity, the more simultaneous presences it has. That makes killing gods - even temporarily - such a messy affair, like the Siege of Whitewall.

Harrek and Belintar are examples of the tangible double presence of human body and divine presence for demigods (divine entities able to act more or less freely inside the Compromise). Check the Prince of Sartar comic for some great depictions.

6 hours ago, Eff said:

Perhaps there was a God Learner sect that attempted to reconcile this, and ended up producing a subset of puppet theater where a little hurricane glove puppet stabs a little sun glove puppet before wooing a little earth cube glove puppet....

The God Learners probably had no conceptual problem with multiple expressions of one rune - that's what Zzabur told them, the sorcerer supreme who claims to be an expression of a First Entity (Erasanchula) while inhabiting the body of one of the sons of Malkion and Phlia the Tilnta. While Zzaburism is different from mainstream Malkioni philosophy, the roots are shared.

 

6 hours ago, Rodney Dangerduck said:

I like this idea so much I have to add this: What do you mean, "was"?  🙂

"The greatest trick the Devil God Learners ever pulled was convincing the world he didn’t  they no longer exist."

The Hrestoli/Makanist philosophy that gave the rise to "God Learner" exploits like Tanian's Victory or the burning of Vralos contlinues to exist, although a variant philosophy based on a mutilated version of their holy book (strongly resembling the grimoires of the Malkionieranist God Learners who swapped, robbed or created theist deities) has taken over in Tanisor.

The magical universities that taught sorcerers and men-of-all to invade and plunder myths systematically aren't run by the Malkioni any more. The Lunar Imperial College of Magic does similar stuff, but lacks the special power of the God Learners, using Illumination instead. The Sartar Magical Union is more an on-the-job training approach.

[Qizilbashwoman]

7 hours ago, Joerg said:

While Zzaburism is different from mainstream Malkioni philosophy, the roots are shared.

Are the Brithini the only remaining Zzaburi?

[Joerg]

1 hour ago, Qizilbashwoman said:

Are the Brithini the only remaining Zzaburi?

Probably yes. The ruler at Jon Barat is said to be a Brithini. His Ingareen followers may be Zzaburites without the benefit of being Brithini,  but it is as possible that they just accept his leadership and go on with whatever it was they did before after losing the Machine God experiment.

[Tindalos]

I mean, you could class the Vadeli and Waertagi as subscribing to variants.

[Qizilbashwoman]

3 minutes ago, Tindalos said:

I mean, you could class the Vadeli and Waertagi as subscribing to variants.

Oh yeah, the Vadeli. I always forget they're around.

I didn't think the Waertagi were sorcerers, hunh.

[Tindalos]

Yeah, the Waertagi mix the worship of the Invisible God (presumably in a similar way to the Brithini) with the worship of sea gods, without seeing any conflict. So some water sorcery and rune magic. (I imagine they may be the originators of the Debaldan School of wizardry, especially as that school's long been associated with Sog City.)

[Qizilbashwoman]

4 minutes ago, Tindalos said:

Yeah, the Waertagi mix the worship of the Invisible God (presumably in a similar way to the Brithini) with the worship of sea gods, without seeing any conflict. So some water sorcery and rune magic. (I imagine they may be the originators of the Debaldan School of wizardry, especially as that school's long been associated with Sog City.)

And yet the Esrolians only have that one Aeolian fanum - it was a sog city, right?

[Tindalos]

15 minutes ago, Qizilbashwoman said:

And yet the Esrolians only have that one Aeolian fanum - it was a sog city, right?

There may be one around the Fish Market in the Helmata District of Nochet, where the Waertagi Docks once stood. There could also be one associated with the Temple of the Invisible God in Meldektown -- as the Capratis and duTumerines come from the Quinpolic League, they could be influenced by Navigationalism, which is likely tied in with the Debaldans for magic regarding ships.

[Joerg]

On 11/27/2019 at 9:00 AM, Jeff said:

I'd like to confine this thread to discussions of Yelmalio and Elmal. If folk want to talk about Vinga, please create a new thread.

Sorry about that Zzaburism deviation...

[jajagappa]

2 hours ago, Qizilbashwoman said:

yet the Esrolians only have that one Aeolian fanum

If you mean an Aeolian/Esvulari temple (vs. other Malkioni ones), yes, there is one. And it is properly outside the walls of Nochet in Meldektown.

Once upon a time Nochet did have a dock for Waertagi Dragonships. Not necessarily connected to the Aeolian temple, though who knows...

Supposedly all the stones/pillars of the docks were removed and used to form the new Embankment in the Sarli district bordering upon the Mirrorsea. But perhaps there are still parts of the docks hidden deep down... and perhaps not.

1 hour ago, Tindalos said:

There may be one around the Fish Market in the Helmata District of Nochet

No western Malkioni temples in the city proper. All such are confined to Meldektown.

There was a Debaldan School in what was Moontown before it was razed. Hardly a temple though.

[M Helsdon]

19 minutes ago, jajagappa said:

Supposedly all the stones/pillars of the docks were removed and used to form the new Embankment in the Sarli district bordering upon the Mirrorsea. But perhaps there are still parts of the docks hidden deep down... and perhaps not.

If there are still remains of Athenian ship sheds at Piraeus, the odds are good that something as massive as a dragonship dock would be hard to just disappear. The main portions of the structure might be removed/reused, but vanishing something so big, even if it is below layers of silt, would be very difficult.

https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/archaeologists-uncover-massive-naval-bases-ancient-athenians-180959452/

Regarding Yelmalio, I believe he is still accounted one of the Noble Brothers in Nochet, despite certain unpleasantness in the Second Age? Even though the Esrolians probably view Elmal as the sun god?

Edited November 30, 2019 by M Helsdon

[Tindalos]

8 minutes ago, M Helsdon said:

Regarding Yelmalio, I believe he is still accounted one of the Noble Brothers in Nochet, despite certain unpleasantness in the Second Age? Even though the Esrolians probably view Elmal as the sun god?

Interestingly the map of Nochet has space for both of them. Elmal in Elmal's Town, Yelmalio in Little Vanntar, located very close together. Also mentioned as part of the Noble Brothers was Nolerianmar, a son of Elmal.

[jajagappa]

1 hour ago, M Helsdon said:

the odds are good that something as massive as a dragonship dock would be hard to just disappear. The main portions of the structure might be removed/reused, but vanishing something so big, even if it is below layers of silt, would be very difficult.

We must remember though the Devastation of the Vent and the subsequent tsunami(s). Did they stay in place? Did they get disrupted/destroyed? Did the ludoch drag the debris off elsewhere? Or are there still enough docks remaining to bring in a Dragonship?

Perhaps before the Flood comes, someone will have quested to cement a friendship and a Dragonship will arrive to rescue some of the Nochetites!

[jajagappa]

1 hour ago, Tindalos said:

Interestingly the map of Nochet has space for both of them. Elmal in Elmal's Town, Yelmalio in Little Vanntar, located very close together. Also mentioned as part of the Noble Brothers was Nolerianmar, a son of Elmal.

Yes, I included both. Elmal as the more "native" cult, Yelmalions coming in the post-Tarkalor era. 

[Tindalos]

15 minutes ago, jajagappa said:

We must remember though the Devastation of the Vent and the subsequent tsunami(s). Did they stay in place? Did they get disrupted/destroyed? Did the ludoch drag the debris off elsewhere? Or are there still enough docks remaining to bring in a Dragonship?

Perhaps before the Flood comes, someone will have quested to cement a friendship and a Dragonship will arrive to rescue some of the Nochetites!

If they keep the trait of other true dragons of basically becoming part of the terrain while sleeping, I could see a Dragonship still being docked there!

People go to loot the remains of the docks, only to find there's a coral reef covering it, not realising that the reef is just the slumbering form of a dragon.

[M Helsdon]

55 minutes ago, jajagappa said:

We must remember though the Devastation of the Vent and the subsequent tsunami(s). Did they stay in place? Did they get disrupted/destroyed? 

Given the size and draught, suspect the impression of a dragonship's hull is still down there, and it probably rested on a solid stone base. It may be covered in silt, but something will remain. Doubtless there are artifacts that might be revealed by the shifting of tides and currents. 

56 minutes ago, jajagappa said:

Yes, I included both. Elmal as the more "native" cult, Yelmalions coming in the post-Tarkalor era. 

The Hittites worshiped three different sun deities (one of which was an underworld goddess) so two sun gods in one city is entirely feasible. Admit that I tend to think of Nochet as not unlike Alexandria in being extremely cosmopolitan, and there were so many different deities of different pantheons there, that there was considerable overlap and fusion.

[Qizilbashwoman]

5 hours ago, M Helsdon said:

Admit that I tend to think of Nochet as not unlike Alexandria in being extremely cosmopolitan, and there were so many different deities of different pantheons there, that there was considerable overlap and fusion.

Nochet is real cosmopolitan, but maybe not as cosmopolitan as Alexandria was. That's a tall order for any city.

[mjb691]

Forgive me if this has already been covered, but I'm a little confused by the practical significance of Elmal being a subcult of Yelmalio in an in-game sense.  If I have a character who is a member of the Enhyl clan with a high Fire Rune who is into horses, when he goes to worship, does he refer to his god as:

1.  Elmal (however, from a God-Learner perspective and from a RQG rules perspective, it's really Yelmalio);

2.  Elmal, perhaps for historical and cultural reasons, but he understands that Elmal is related to/functionally the same as/subsumed by Yelmalio;

3.  Yelmalio primarily, recognizing that historically his god was often referred to as Elmal;

4.  Elmal with regard to the horse-riding and thane of Orlanth dimension, otherwise Yelmalio; or

5.  Just Yelmalio.

 

Prior to reading this thread, based on the material in the RQG corebook, I assumed the answer was #1.  I interpret Jeff's original post to mean that it is not simply #1.  And I don't think it is #5 given the references in RQG to "temples of Elmal" in the Colymar Tribe lands.  But which of #2 to #4 is correct? 

[Tindalos]

44 minutes ago, mjb691 said:

Forgive me if this has already been covered, but I'm a little confused by the practical significance of Elmal being a subcult of Yelmalio in an in-game sense.  If I have a character who is a member of the Enhyl clan with a high Fire Rune who is into horses, when he goes to worship, does he refer to his god as:

As a member of the Enhyli, most likely #2, relying on the description of the clan in the Adventure Booklet of the GM's Screen (page 17).