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Resistance Table


Thalaba

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There seems to be a lot of resistance to the Resistance Table. When I hear criticisms of BRP it's usually one of the things that igets mentioned. Even old school BRPers make disparaging comments about it. But I have to admit I don't get why people don't like it. Sure, people don't like having to look up tables in play, but it isn't really a table - it's a simple mathematical formula. It's only presented in the rulebooks in table format for ease. I'm terrible at head-math, but I find it really easy to use the resistance formula.

But surely so many resistance table nay-sayers can't be wrong - so what am I missing? Why are so many people down on this little mechanic? Is it just a case of "even this much math is too much in game because it destroys my pace"? Or is it statistically wonky? Or something else?

Thoughts?

Thalaba

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I don't use the Resistance Table at all - just STATx5 rolls instead, because that's so much simpler.

Though frequently 'modifiers' apply to the Stat, typically: +/1 per Point the opposing STAT/POW/POT is under/over 10.

;)

Britain has been infiltrated by soviet agents to the highest levels. They control the BBC, the main political party leaderships, NHS & local council executives, much of the police, most newspapers and the utility companies. Of course the EU is theirs, through-and-through. And they are among us - a pervasive evil, like Stasi.

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Resistance Table is Another Mechanic TM (note capital A and capital M)

For those who prefer internal consistency this is a bit of a bug bear. Although I remember when GURPS was advertised as ONLY having THREE mechanics which suggested that this was revolutionary and streamlined in comparison to the opposition.

There is also the issue that both sides make a roll. For some this is a great benefit (similar to the 'I want to be the one who determines whether or not I Dodge the blow not the GM rolling for the villain against a static number' argument over separate rolls for Attack, Block, Parry and Dodge). For others it makes for a wasteful multi step process

Burly Bob (Str 17) arm wrestles Hugh Hugh (Str 15).

Step 1. Calculate Bob's chance = 50+(2x5) = 60%

Step 2. Calculate Hugh's chance = 50+(-2x5) = 40%

Step 3. Roll for Bob

Step 4. Roll for Hugh

Step 5. Compare the results

If the contest is between scores which will fluctuate according to the contest (i.e. Magic Points in Spirit Combat) then steps 1 and 2 must be repeated each round.

I could quite happily run (or play in) a game which

Replaces Resistance Table with opposed rolls

Uses Resistance Table and 'normal' skill resolution (as per RAW)

ONLY uses the Resistance Table

ONLY uses Resistance Table but for percentiles the difference is <points> not <points x5> as for characteristics

ONLY uses Resistance Table but for percentiles the difference is <points> not <points x5> as for characteristics and only one roll is made not one for each side

For the latter MY bug bear is the 'its cool to not have much chance to succeed and having high skill scores means that you are a childish munchkin' attitude. And the much criticised most CoC drivers crash half of the time issue*. I also like the idea of a player making all rolls which affect their character. So using the Resistance Table for skill tests

unopposed my chance is 50 + skill

hitting my foe is 50 + my skill - his skill

avoiding my foe's strike is 50 + my skill - her skill

And for characteristic tests

avoiding the effects of the Villainous Viper Venom my chance is 50 + (Con x5) - (Pot x5)

Al

*which admittedly HAS already been partially addressed in several d100 rulesbooks and errata. i.e. RQIII says not to call for a Ride roll just to stay on a horse which is bimbling along

Rule Zero: Don't be on fire

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Some people don't like the Resistance Table because it involves Maths. As a Maths graduate, I won't comment any further on that particular issue. :mad:

The table is limited in that it doesn't have a very wide range. STR 10 vs STR 1 has the same failure/success chance as STR 100 vs STR 1.

More improtantly, it doesn't scale well. STR 20 vs STR 10 has the same chabnce of success as STR 200 vs STR 190, so two very strong creatures with virtually the same Characteristoc scores (5% apart) have radically different chances of overcoming each other (95% vs 5%).

But, having said that, I use it as it is easy and convenient. Quite often I don't even use the Table and just work with 5% per point difference

either side of 50%.

Simon Phipp - Caldmore Chameleon - Wallowing in my elitism since 1982. Many Systems, One Family. Just a fanboy. 

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Purely mechanically, the resistance table gives relative chances while standard dice rolls give absolute chances. Also, you end up with multitudes of different resolution systems:

stat * X% to make a characteristic roll

stat vs stat on resistance table

skill%

skill% vs skill% for whatever system you're using to resolve opposed skills.

If you're used to BRP this complexity is pretty invisible but it's a bit of a hodge-podge when you're new to the game.

I've personally adopted the MRQ system of using just skills and opposed skills. Once in a while it can feel a little confining and I get itchy fingers for a luck roll or something but generally it feels more unified. It's not that I find the resistance table difficult to use, simply that I prefer to have fewer game mechanics.

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But, having said that, I use it as it is easy and convenient. Quite often I don't even use the Table and just work with 5% per point difference either side of 50%.

This is how I've always done it, and have assumed it's what everyone else does...could be wrong about that I suppose. I just start at 50/50 and adjust 5% for each point difference between stats. It does baffle me that people would complain about the math for this in a system where you have to mentally calculate 5% and 20% of every die roll. (I've ranted before about this complaint too, so won't do it here! :) )

Having said that, I've long considered using opposed STATx5% rolls only because it would be completely consistent with opposed skill rolls.

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stat * X% to make a characteristic roll

stat vs stat on resistance table

skill%

skill% vs skill% for whatever system you're using to resolve opposed skills.

If you're used to BRP this complexity is pretty invisible but it's a bit of a hodge-podge when you're new to the game.

Which is exactly why I simplify it even further:

Skill%

Stat* x 5% (*sometimes modified as noted - which makes it identical to the resistance table)

(And certainly no opposed rolls, which throw simplicity out the window!)

Britain has been infiltrated by soviet agents to the highest levels. They control the BBC, the main political party leaderships, NHS & local council executives, much of the police, most newspapers and the utility companies. Of course the EU is theirs, through-and-through. And they are among us - a pervasive evil, like Stasi.

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More improtantly, it doesn't scale well. STR 20 vs STR 10 has the same chabnce of success as STR 200 vs STR 190, so two very strong creatures with virtually the same Characteristoc scores (5% apart) have radically different chances of overcoming each other (95% vs 5%).

I considered this awhile back on one of the Mecha threads. I was thinking that we could make this scalable by either reducing the 5% per point difference, use a constant demonstrator like divide both sides by 5 or 10 for vales over a certain score), or simply use the actual ratios.

But considering how much grief +/-5% per point gets, I'D suppose I'd have a been change of getting an infinite number of monkeys to finish Hamlet that gettting five gamers to use any of the above options. :eek:

Chaos stalks my world, but she's a big girl and can take of herself.

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Could work this way:

Both values in the 01-25 range -> Resistance roll (or opposed stat x5 roll)

Both values in the 26-50 range -> Opposed stat x2 roll

At least one value is above 50 -> Opposed stat roll

It could. For those who like the opposed stat rules.

I'd like divide the roll by the stat to get the "stat mutiple" and have the lower multiple win. For high stats, divide by by a denominator to get the right ratio. For instance with 200 cs. 190 treat it as 20 vs 19.

It looks easy to me, but I know if I tried it several of my players would look at me and freeze up-- much like watching streaming video on a dial up connection.

Chaos stalks my world, but she's a big girl and can take of herself.

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I'd like divide the roll by the stat to get the "stat mutiple" and have the lower multiple win.

:lol: That's exactly how we handle it. But 90% of my group has a degree in some scientific discipline. Dividing a roll by a number to learn what the success level is would be cool, but it isn't for everyone.

It looks easy to me, but I know if I tried it several of my players would look at me and freeze up-- much like watching streaming video on a dial up connection.

It could. For those who like the opposed stat rules.

Point is that you or Frogspawner do not, but the average player does. So the "official" solution should be the one that appeals to most. But nothing prevents you (or me) from using a math-heavy method if the group is fine with it.

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:lol: That's exactly how we handle it. But 90% of my group has a degree in some scientific discipline. Dividing a roll by a number to learn what the success level is would be cool, but it isn't for everyone.

Quite true. One of my player now can't manage to figure out how to roll 3d6+2.

Point is that you or Frogspawner do not, but the average player does. So the "official" solution should be the one that appeals to most. But nothing prevents you (or me) from using a math-heavy method if the group is fine with it.

I don't know about that. By that logic the game should use the d20 rules system.

BTW, A few years back I considered using the multiplier idea for a RPG core mechanic, but with lower stat values (1-10 range or so). Most of the effects would be tied to the difference in multiples.

Chaos stalks my world, but she's a big girl and can take of herself.

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Could work this way:

Both values in the 01-25 range -> Resistance roll (or opposed stat x5 roll)

Both values in the 26-50 range -> Opposed stat x2 roll

At least one value is above 50 -> Opposed stat roll

This seems to me to be a bit too complicated. The reduce-in-ratio solution would be preferable, though still not as easy as I'd like.

Point is that you or Frogspawner do not [like opposed stat rolls], but the average player does. So the "official" solution should be the one that appeals to most.

Yes, the preferred solutions are the simplest. But I don't believe the average player prefers opposed stat rolls - or has even heard of them. The 'average player' is probably a D&D player, for whom opposed rolls of any kind are probably too hard. And even if we're talking the average BRP player, we should still try to Keep It Simple®.

So, yes, the "official solution" should be the one that appeals to most: i.e. the simplest (without being simplistic) solution - which has the best chance of attracting new/ex-D&D players to BRP. IMO, any opposed roll mechanisms are too complex for that.

Britain has been infiltrated by soviet agents to the highest levels. They control the BBC, the main political party leaderships, NHS & local council executives, much of the police, most newspapers and the utility companies. Of course the EU is theirs, through-and-through. And they are among us - a pervasive evil, like Stasi.

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This seems to me to be a bit too complicated. The reduce-in-ratio solution would be preferable, though still not as easy as I'd like.

Yes, the preferred solutions are the simplest. But I don't believe the average player prefers opposed stat rolls - or has even heard of them. The 'average player' is probably a D&D player, for whom opposed rolls of any kind are probably too hard. And even if we're talking the average BRP player, we should still try to Keep It Simple®.

So, yes, the "official solution" should be the one that appeals to most: i.e. the simplest (without being simplistic) solution - which has the best chance of attracting new/ex-D&D players to BRP. IMO, any opposed roll mechanisms are too complex for that.

But D&D has opposed rolls - so how would a having an such a mechanism in BRP alienate D&D players? NOT having one would alienate them. "Why can't BRP handle a simple Spot vs. Sneak check?" is a valid question, and frankly the d20 mechanic handles it far better than any of the BRP methods (It is the rest of the stupid crap in D&D that makes the system shit).

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But D&D has opposed rolls - so how would a having an such a mechanism in BRP alienate D&D players?

By being too complicated.

In D&D, they only use the very simple 'd20 + mods v target number' method. It's just that in some cases the target required is the result of an opponents 'd20+mods' roll. (Not a special opposed roll mechanism).

Yes, I agree (as I said earlier) - D&D does this better*. It manages to be better by generating a (more realistic, incidentally) Continuum of Success, instead of BRP's over-quantized (and often misleadingly-named) 'Success or Failure' (etc).

*Until we can come up with a similarly simple method, that is... And isn't that what we're here for? :)

Edited by frogspawner

Britain has been infiltrated by soviet agents to the highest levels. They control the BBC, the main political party leaderships, NHS & local council executives, much of the police, most newspapers and the utility companies. Of course the EU is theirs, through-and-through. And they are among us - a pervasive evil, like Stasi.

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:lol:

Though I think we're getting confused with the "contested rolls" thread now.

Scarily, my preferred alternative to the Resistance Table is not too dissimilar to what you just said (i.e.: STATx5, with stat-modifiers of +/1 per Point the opposing STAT/POW/POT is under/over 10 [i.e. identical to the RT, but as a formula]).

However, that doesn't handle the one remaining problem - scalability.

Britain has been infiltrated by soviet agents to the highest levels. They control the BBC, the main political party leaderships, NHS & local council executives, much of the police, most newspapers and the utility companies. Of course the EU is theirs, through-and-through. And they are among us - a pervasive evil, like Stasi.

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However, that doesn't handle the one remaining problem - scalability.

IMHO BRP has never scaled well far past 'normal human' ranges. It is OK for Human versus Troll, but not Godzilla versus Rodan. It works ok for Human versus Godzilla because the human gets squashed, which is fine. BRP has always suffered from the fact that STR 400 vs STR 390 is handled the same as STR 20 versus STR 10.

And the fact of the matter is there is no simple solution.

Any method that reduces by factors or multipliers does not provide a smooth probability curve - there are always abnormailties at each reduction that result in an odds penalty to the higher skill/stat (like the long since scrapped MRQ halving rule).

Any formula that gives a smooth probability curve that scales with the skills/stats involved requires a calculator. The last RPG I played that pretty much required a calculator was Aftermath! (not that I don't have some fond memories of playing amidst the ruins of society and the formulas and flowcharts of the rules...).

That is why I personally have never felt BRP is a good system for Supers (at least high powered supers - it fine for more street level supers like Batman and Daredevil).

What BRP was originally used for, ancient armed melee combat, it does exceedingly well and is my favorite system for that. It is a tribute to BRP's design that it works so well in just about any setting, but it has always been a bit lacking when used outside of its original scope. Modern ballistics modeling (no proper penetration rules and suspect autofire rules) and scaling for supers being examples of some weak spots when out of it's 'natural' environment (ancient and medieval or fantasy combat).

All of this is of course just my opinion.

Help kill a Trollkin here.

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So it is settled then, we divide the skills by five, roll a d20 and add, highest roll wins. :)

Or, to keep it more in line with normal skills:

d100+Skill (or Statx5%) vs Same

Highest Wins

You'd just have to reverse Specials and Criticals and Fumbles to the high end.

Hummm....

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Or, to keep it more in line with normal skills:

d100+Skill (or Statx5%) vs Same

Highest Wins

You'd just have to reverse Specials and Criticals and Fumbles to the high end.

...and to keep it simple, dispense with Specials/Fumbles, define a "Threat Range" for Criticals (natural 96+?), where a good re-roll gives 2x damage etc.... :D

Of course, there is another change we'd have to make - the game's name would go from "BRP" to "D20-with-D100's" or some such (DwD?). ;)

PS: Ah! I have it: "D20-on-D100", or "D-on-D"... :)

Edited by frogspawner
PS

Britain has been infiltrated by soviet agents to the highest levels. They control the BBC, the main political party leaderships, NHS & local council executives, much of the police, most newspapers and the utility companies. Of course the EU is theirs, through-and-through. And they are among us - a pervasive evil, like Stasi.

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IMHO BRP has never scaled well far past 'normal human' ranges. ... And the fact of the matter is there is no simple solution.

OK, how about this "Scalable Resistance Table" ?

To make it, I worked out the multipliers which gave the standard results for a number in the normal range (12, in this case), and then found the numbers that'd give the same chances, assuming scalabilty. (Yes, it needed a calculator, or rather a spreadsheet, but now it's done you don't need one).

To use it, read down from the Active stat to the first number which equals or exceeds the Passive stat, then use that line's percentage chance:

[B]%     1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 30 35 40 50  %[/B]

100%  0  0  1  1  1  1  1  1  2  2  2  2  2  2  3  3  3  3  3  3  4  4  4  4  4  5  6  7  8  100%

 95%  0  1  1  1  1  2  2  2  2  3  3  3  3  4  4  4  4  5  5  5  5  6  6  6  6  8  9 10 13   95%

 90%  0  1  1  1  2  2  2  3  3  3  4  4  4  5  5  5  6  6  6  7  7  7  8  8  8 10 12 13 17   90%

 85%  0  1  1  2  2  3  3  3  4  4  5  5  5  6  6  7  7  8  8  8  9  9 10 10 10 13 15 17 21   85%

 80%  1  1  2  2  3  3  4  4  5  5  6  6  7  7  8  8  9  9 10 10 11 11 12 12 13 15 18 20 25   80%

 75%  1  1  2  2  3  4  4  5  5  6  6  7  8  8  9  9 10 11 11 12 12 13 13 14 15 18 20 23 29   75%

 70%  1  1  2  3  3  4  5  5  6  7  7  8  9  9 10 11 11 12 13 13 14 15 15 16 17 20 23 27 33   70%

 65%  1  2  2  3  4  5  5  6  7  8  8  9 10 11 11 12 13 14 14 15 16 17 17 18 19 23 26 30 38   65%

 60%  1  2  3  3  4  5  6  7  8  8  9 10 11 12 13 13 14 15 16 17 18 18 19 20 21 25 29 33 42   60%

 55%  1  2  3  4  5  6  6  7  8  9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 28 32 37 46   55%

 50%  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 30 35 40 50   50%

 45%  1  2  3  4  5  7  8  9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 33 38 43 54   45%

 40%  1  2  4  5  6  7  8  9 11 12 13 14 15 16 18 19 20 21 22 23 25 26 27 28 29 35 41 47 58   40%

 35%  1  3  4  5  6  8  9 10 11 13 14 15 16 18 19 20 21 23 24 25 26 28 29 30 31 38 44 50 63   35%

 30%  1  3  4  5  7  8  9 11 12 13 15 16 17 19 20 21 23 24 25 27 28 29 31 32 33 40 47 53 67   30%

 25%  1  3  4  6  7  9 10 11 13 14 16 17 18 20 21 23 24 26 27 28 30 31 33 34 35 43 50 57 71   25%

 20%  2  3  5  6  8  9 11 12 14 15 17 18 20 21 23 24 26 27 29 30 32 33 35 36 38 45 53 60 75   20%

 15%  2  3  5  6  8 10 11 13 14 16 17 19 21 22 24 25 27 29 30 32 33 35 36 38 40 48 55 63 79   15%

 10%  2  3  5  7  8 10 12 13 15 17 18 20 22 23 25 27 28 30 32 33 35 37 38 40 42 50 58 67 83   10%

  5%  2  4  5  7  9 11 12 14 16 18 19 21 23 25 26 28 30 32 33 35 37 39 40 42 44 53 61 70 88    5%

  0%  2+ 4+ 6+ 7+ 9 11 13 15 17 18 20 22 24 26 28 29 31 33 35 37 39 40 42 44 46 55 64 73 92    0%

Since it's scalable, you don't need to extend it to 300, 400 or whatever - just divide the opposed stats by a factor that makes both fit on the table. Would anyone find this useful for their Super-Sized Resistance Rolls?

PS: This version was based on 12 (so 12 is identical to the standard Resistance Table), but another base number could be chosen if you prefer. There seem to be some oddities at the low end (caused by rounding?) but I'm sure these could be tweaked for the final version. And all numbers on the bottom line should be that or more, but not all the +'s wouldn't fit!

Edited by frogspawner
PS

Britain has been infiltrated by soviet agents to the highest levels. They control the BBC, the main political party leaderships, NHS & local council executives, much of the police, most newspapers and the utility companies. Of course the EU is theirs, through-and-through. And they are among us - a pervasive evil, like Stasi.

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Interesting approach. At first look it seems pretty usable - particularly because it doesn't seem to break when reducing the stats to fit the table.

If I were to run a supers or mecha BRP game I would certainly consider using that.

Help kill a Trollkin here.

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