Personalities of the Fire, Light and Heat Runes

[None]

Greeings, this is my first post. You may salute it. Or if you prefer something less onerous. Hi. Nice to meet you.

 

I find the idea of having all the different runes affect or represent different parts of a characters personality interesting and especially so with the elemental runes as they seem to create the greatest base difference between the (human) culture groups of glorantha. Even when they're not clustered together cultures with the same elemental rune seem to have, or at least I assume they do, core similarities seeing as every human has one, and only one, and elemental runes are to my understanding something you're very likely to inherit.

That said out of all the elemental runes the sky/fire rune have the vauguest and fewest personality traits numbering only two.

Loyalty - yes sure I understand that, but Purity? What's that even suposed to mean?

On top of that I've found no mention of the lesser elemental runes like light or heat, or cold for the darkness rune. Something I'd find very interesting to know seeing as they are only part of their original runes so their personalities should be slanted somewhat differently.

 

Another thing tha's sorely lacking because of the limited mention of how elemental sub runes impact the personalities of pelorian women. That is the female elemental rune of Peloria, right? Or is that only Dara Happa? There is plenty of information on how the storm and earth rune affect orlanthi men and women and some relating to how the sky/fire rune affect pelorian men but nothing about pelorian women and the light rune. (The only thing I've managed to gather is that the sky/fire rune abd the earth rune don't mix easily but that's neither here nor there.)

If anyone could help explain this to me I'd be very grateful.

 

(If anyone want to discuss the personalities of other runes feel free just don't detract too far from the main topic at first, please. The other runes aren't my main interest right now. Although I'd like to know if the earth, storm and water runes have sub runes of their own.)

[Sir_Godspeed]

1 hour ago, None said:

but Purity? What's that even suposed to mean?

Possibly a tendency to be preoccupied with avoiding cultural taboos. That seems likely for me, at least.

And I'm not surprised that Pelorian women weren't mentioned. They - and most non-Orlanthi women in general - tend to get overshadowed by some "general-culture-by-way-of-masculine-ideals"-type of thing, not unlike the blindsports of RW anthropology up until fairly recently.

[None]

1 hour ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

Possibly a tendency to be preoccupied with avoiding cultural taboos. That seems likely for me, at least.

That is possibler I supposer but makes it very similar to Loyalty. I gues that does speak for it but also leaves the sky/fire rune very narrow.

1 hour ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

And I'm not surprised that Pelorian women weren't mentioned. They - and most non-Orlanthi women in general - tend to get overshadowed by some "general-culture-by-way-of-masculine-ideals"-type of thing, not unlike the blindsports of RW anthropology up until fairly recently.

Which is sad as I find the question interesting. Especially as you cannot fully understandthe a culture and people that way. Even if the women in question only have a relatively (empathis on relatively) minor direct part in the greater scale of things I'd still say it's important to know and helps you undertstand and portray the culture.

Even in Dara Happa its women are still a part pf Dara Happa, not just some extra people that exist within it. I still know next to nothing about the cult of Dendara but it should be an important part of Dara Happan culture (and possibly the rest of Peloria) seeing as she is their goddess of women (and the only one that even begins to look like a rival to Ernalda on that front).

Edited November 18, 2019 by None

[Sir_Godspeed]

14 minutes ago, None said:

That is possibler I supposer but makes it very similar to Loyalty. I gues that does speak for it but also leaves the sky/fire rune very narrow.

 

Well, maintaining oaths apply in both cases, but you can have stuff like preserving dietary or clothing norms, for example, or refusing to help members of a lower class or caste, or refusing to touch women in certain ways, or refusing to enter the homes of certain groups, or insisting on carrying out certain rituals at certain times, etc, which aren't necessarily lotalty-adjacent practices.

Besides, it's a tendency, not an absolute.

 

17 minutes ago, None said:

Which is sad as I find the question interesting. Especially as you cannot fully understandthe a culture and people that way. Even if the women in question only have a relatively (empathis on relatively) minor direct part in the greater scale of things I'd still say it's important to know and helps you undertstand and portray the culture.

Absolutely, and it's a lesson RW anthropology had to learn the hard way (and is still learning the hard way).

 

 

17 minutes ago, None said:

Even in Dara Happa its women are still a part pf Dara Happa, not just some creature that exist within it. I still know next to nothing about the cult of Dendara but it should be an important part of Dara Happan culture (and possibly the rest of Peloria) seeing as she is their goddess of women (and the only one that even begins to look like a rival to Ernalda on that front).

Well, Dendara and Oria (I can't imagine that Oria's influence stop at the walls of the respective tripolis cities), but yes - they are both immensely important in the daily lives of not only half the population(!), but for virtually all children, arguably most elderly and most men as well, even if it might be indirect (although I suspect Lodrilite men at least have a pretty close relationship with Oria in the same sense Orlanthi men have with Ernalda - as queen (headwoman), mother, provider and wife-ideal, etc.)

[None]

2 hours ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

2 hours ago, None said:

That is possibler I supposer but makes it very similar to Loyalty. I gues that does speak for it but also leaves the sky/fire rune very narrow.

Well, maintaining oaths apply in both cases, but you can have stuff like preserving dietary or clothing norms, for example, or refusing to help members of a lower class or caste, or refusing to touch women in certain ways, or refusing to enter the homes of certain groups, or insisting on carrying out certain rituals at certain times, etc, which aren't necessarily lotalty-adjacent practices.

Besides, it's a tendency, not an absolute.

I understand what you're saying it's just that the other elemental runes feel a lot broader and fleshed out to to me.

2 hours ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

2 hours ago, None said:

Which is sad as I find the question interesting. Especially as you cannot fully understandthe a culture and people that way. Even if the women in question only have a relatively (empathis on relatively) minor direct part in the greater scale of things I'd still say it's important to know and helps you undertstand and portray the culture.

Absolutely, and it's a lesson RW anthropology had to learn the hard way (and is still learning the hard way).

And one of the reasons I want to know and wish there were more about the light rune. It serves the same function as the earth rune does for the orlanthi among the dara happans and possibly large parts of peloria (I hope it doeas at least, I don't like the whole 'the earth rune is the rune of women everywhere' feel I sometimes get from the setting.)

 

2 hours ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

2 hours ago, None said:

Even in Dara Happa its women are still a part pf Dara Happa, not just some creature that exist within it. I still know next to nothing about the cult of Dendara but it should be an important part of Dara Happan culture (and possibly the rest of Peloria) seeing as she is their goddess of women (and the only one that even begins to look like a rival to Ernalda on that front).

Well, Dendara and Oria (I can't imagine that Oria's influence stop at the walls of the respective tripolis cities), but yes - they are both immensely important in the daily lives of not only half the population(!), but for virtually all children, arguably most elderly and most men as well, even if it might be indirect (although I suspect Lodrilite men at least have a pretty close relationship with Oria in the same sense Orlanthi men have with Ernalda - as queen (headwoman), mother, provider and wife-ideal, etc.)

Certainly about Oria just as Dendara's influence shouln't stop entirely at the walls either but as Oria is an earth goddes she is less of an unknown to me which is why I'm more focused on Dendara. Also I'm not entirely in favour of Ernalda being as omnipresent and uncontested as she seem to be (although admitedly, part of the reason might be the focus on Dragon Pass and there is that with Dendara being a weaker goddes than Ernalda wich is fine I suppose concidering the roles they take) even Orlanth has a rival in Yelm.

Ernalda however gives of the impression of being the goddes of women everywhere except Dara Happan cities which irks mer a little even though I know its probably not the complete truth. Theres the west and Kralorela where she shouldn't be as prominent but one of those two are kind of atheistic and they're also sort not in focus at all.

(I actually like Ernalda despite what it sounds like, just not everywhere. I mean she's even taken the grazers and they are of the sun/sky run, quite a lot too as I understand it.)

 

(tl/dr: I, I don't know how to make tl/dr of this. Sorry. I'll try to keep it shorter in the future.)

edit: I'll have to leave now but I enjoyed the discussion.

Edited November 18, 2019 by None

[Bill the barbarian]

4 hours ago, None said:

You may salute it.

Okay

Edited November 18, 2019 by Bill the barbarian

[Sir_Godspeed]

1 hour ago, None said:

I don't like the whole 'the earth rune is the rune of women everywhere' feel I sometimes get from the setting.)

I'm not a huge fan of that myself either, and it's a criticism I've seen third-party reviewers mention.

1 hour ago, None said:

Certainly about Oria just as Dendara's influence shouln't stop entirely at the walls either but as Oria is an earth goddes she is less of an unknown to me which is why I'm more focused on Dendara. Also I'm not entirely in favour of Ernalda being as omnipresent and uncontested as she seem to be (although admitedly, part of the reason might be the focus on Dragon Pass and there is that with Dendara being a weaker goddes than Ernalda wich is fine I suppose concidering the roles they take) even Orlanth has a rival in Yelm.

Ernalda however gives of the impression of being the goddes of women everywhere except Dara Happan cities which irks mer a little even though I know its probably not the complete truth. Theres the west and Kralorela where she shouldn't be as prominent but one of those two are kind of atheistic and they're also sort not in focus at all.

(I actually like Ernalda despite what it sounds like, just not everywhere. I mean she's even taken the grazers and they are of the sun/sky run, quite a lot too as I understand it.)

Fair points all around. 

The Earth Goddesses are a whole thing unto themselves, and they all sort of meld together on higher levels of abstraction while also preserving local specificities, so it can probably be both argued that Ernalda it at once universal and local.

Anyway, to keep it focused: yes, Dendara is a bit of an enigma. I would recommend the Entekosiad, but with the caveat that it doesn't really explain anything in simple terms (it's very esoteric), and might just make you more confused at the end of it.

As opposed to Oria, Dendara is a lot more of an (at least outwardly) submissive wife-figure, being an embodiment it seems, of uxoral piety - at least as far as upper-class/full-citizen Dara Happans are concerned. She is also associated with "Virtue" (a vague and wide-reaching concept in DH-focused literature, Yelm is also very much concerned with Virtue, although also with Justice), and with rainbows and apparently rain. I also seem to remember her being associated with weaving, which is similar to Ernalda.

I forget what her Runes are, though I never got a strong "elemental" vibe off her. It feels like she could be Celestial, Chthonic or even Aquatic without it overly overshadowing her main attributes. And then there is the association with Entekos, the goddess of Airs, of course.

[Sir_Godspeed]

1 hour ago, None said:

(tl/dr: I, I don't know how to make tl/dr of this. Sorry. I'll try to keep it shorter in the future.)

edit: I'll have to leave now but I enjoyed the discussion.

No need - you're no worse than most other people here, myself included. I often find that I start my longer posts with one thing in mind and then at the end I realized I ended up with something else. Oh well.

Do feel free to come back to continue it whenever! ^^

[Qizilbashwoman]

24 minutes ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

I forget what her Runes are, though I never got a strong "elemental" vibe off her. It feels like she could be Celestial, Chthonic or even Aquatic without it overly overshadowing her main attributes. And then there is the association with Entekos, the goddess of Airs, of course.

Oria is Esrola.

The "purity" thing about the Celestials is their unwillingness to sully themselves with flesh, desire, and form. That's why they hate Lodril, the Fire within Earth. The Celestial cults of Ourania and Polestar are Yelorna, the celibate Amazon unicorn riders, and Yelmalio, the self-abnegating male cult of warriors. They deny sex, pleasure, food.

Dayzatar was the first Yelm, but he was repulsed by Earth and fled. Now he's the Pure Priest of Heaven. Later Ourania was Yelm during the Green Age, and emanated two children. Other sky gods took the mantle on. Muharzam was Yelm for a while, then was slain; during His death, bits of his power floated over each city with each "son of Yelm". I think that slain-and-reborn Yelm has become His own deity now.

Entekos is a Storm Deity, the Calm Air, and is associated with the matriarchal Darsenites and Her symbol is phallic - Her Old Pelorian name is Addi.

Dendara appears to be a Rain deity, so the conquered Aroka water dragon - basically Heler/a, but shoved into "Act Like A Lady" form.

Dendara and Entekos have a common feast day and they are worshipped together to bring rain. In Theyalan stories, Elmal, Heler/a and Orlanth are rivals to be Esrola's ritual husband, and this oddly seems to parallel that? A ritual worshipping the phallic Wind Lady and the Water Wife of the Sun Emperor brings rain.
 

[Sir_Godspeed]

33 minutes ago, Qizilbashwoman said:

Oria is Esrola.

 

I meant Dendara there. I am not sure what her Runes are.

[Qizilbashwoman]

44 minutes ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

I meant Dendara there. I am not sure what her Runes are.

Yeah I got nothing. All I know is that she brings rain with Entekos.

If you want to improvise before the GGG comes out, just pretend she's Heler?

Edited November 18, 2019 by Qizilbashwoman

[None]

18 hours ago, Bill the barbarian said:

Okay

Thank you. (I didn't watch it, sorry but I'm a bit picky about video clips and the like, but I accept the salute nontheless.)

 

18 hours ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

19 hours ago, None said:

I don't like the whole 'the earth rune is the rune of women everywhere' feel I sometimes get from the setting.)

I'm not a huge fan of that myself either, and it's a criticism I've seen third-party reviewers mention.

I don't want to accuse anyone (well I supose that 'one' is Greg) but it's probably because Orlanth and Ernalda is likely to have been designed first with everything else built around them. I've seen it happen before and done it myself where you give too much to your first creations and end up limiting everything else.  Even if you don't mean to. I mean, the orlanthi has what? Half of all rune owning gods in the whole setting? It's very useful when you whant to make a diverse orlanthi player character party, true, but aside from that?

 

Ahem, anyway.

18 hours ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

Anyway, to keep it focused: yes, Dendara is a bit of an enigma.

Yes I know and I concider her far to important to be one. I haven't been able to find out anytyhing about her cult(s), what powers they have, or Hero Quests, or anything. Sure, her powers are probably not of the 'I'm going to kill some trolls and go on awesome adventures' variety but that doesn't make them less important. Ernalda and probably several other earth goddesses have powers that aren't of that variety that are still extremely important, both to orlanthi survival and to their comunity.

18 hours ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

As opposed to Oria, Dendara is a lot more of an (at least outwardly) submissive wife-figure, being an embodiment it seems, of uxoral piety - at least as far as upper-class/full-citizen Dara Happans are concerned. She is also associated with "Virtue" (a vague and wide-reaching concept in DH-focused literature, Yelm is also very much concerned with Virtue, although also with Justice), and with rainbows and apparently rain. I also seem to remember her being associated with weaving, which is similar to Ernalda.

She probably is, more submissive than Oria I mean, I've found that glorantha gods rarely differ to much from the people they represent and the role and place they have in their society (or maybe its the other way around) it also mechs well with the fire/sky runes respect for hierachies and authority (probably part of the Loyalty bit) and the 'Glorious Reascent of Yelm'.  Weaving has been closely ascociated with women for a very long time in the past and I wouldn't bve surprised if every major goddess that has any association with women is somehow linked to it.

I had forgotten about the virtue bit but it makes sense , it feels like a variation or like its part of Purity.

18 hours ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

I forget what her Runes are, though I never got a strong "elemental" vibe off her. It feels like she could be Celestial, Chthonic or even Aquatic without it overly overshadowing her main attributes. And then there is the association with Entekos, the goddess of Airs, of course.

I'm pretty sure Dendara is light rune and harmony rune, the same as the main female goddes of Kraklorea.

 

18 hours ago, Qizilbashwoman said:

Dendara appears to be a Rain deity, so the conquered Aroka water dragon - basically Heler/a, but shoved into "Act Like A Lady" form.

I've actually been toying around witht he idea if a sun/sky god and water goddes pairing for several reasons. One being that it gives some interesting possibilities if you don't want to be depedent on earth for food. But I don't think Dendara is a water goddess.

 

edit: another long post, I've tried to parttion it this time at least. I also prefer not to double-post.

Edited November 19, 2019 by None

[Sir_Godspeed]

2 hours ago, None said:

I don't want to accuse anyone (well I supose that 'one' is Greg) but it's probably because Orlanth and Ernalda is likely to have been designed first with everything else built around them. I've seen it happen before and done it myself where you give too much to your first creations and end up limiting everything else.  Even if you don't mean to. I mean, the orlanthi has what? Half of all rune owning gods in the whole setting? It's very useful when you whant to make a diverse orlanthi player character party, true, but aside from that?

 

There are some who will be ready to tell you that actually the West was developed first - but that was a very, very long time ago. And while plenty of places in Glorantha are surprisingly old in terms of real-world-development, it's pretty obvious that it's Central Genertela, and the Orlanthi in particular, who've been given the most attention, and that the setting to a large extent revolves around them and their plights and ambitions. This is perfectly fine, of course, and has given us a lot of wonderful material, but that doesn't mean we can't be hungry for similar details for other cultures, however voracious that might seem.

I think a useful thing to consider is this: the reason there are so many gods for the Orlanthi is because the gods of the Orlanthi have been fairly exhaustively detailed (some might say overly so, what with the scaling back of subcults), and other pantheons are likely to have not only a similar amount of gods (or more), but also have many analogous deities. We can discuss whether these deities are the same under different names or not all day, but ultimately the point is that we tend to see the same archetypes appear and reappear around the map, as it were - we just don't necessarily have as much detail about how they and their worshippers work yet.

But yeah - there's a lot of female grain goddesses and earth goddesses of female femininity of womanhood gallavanting about, and it can get a bit repetitive. The Old Norse and the polytheistic Japanese had female sun goddesses, and the Egyptians had several male earth fertility gods (Geb, Min), so it's okay to switch it up. To some extent, Flamal (the Seed Father) and Lodril (The Phallic Heat-in-Matter God) serve the purpose of (earth-adjacent) male fertility deities (and then there's Baroshi, who's a grain-based godling who might become important later on, but not so much right now), so there is some variety there, but imho there's room to play around with it more.
 

3 hours ago, None said:

I don't want to accuse anyone (well I supose that 'one' is Greg) but it's probably because Orlanth and Ernalda is likely to have been designed first with everything else built around them. I've seen it happen before and done it myself where you give too much to your first creations and end up limiting everything else.  Even if you don't mean to. I mean, the orlanthi has what? Half of all rune owning gods in the whole setting? It's very useful when you whant to make a diverse orlanthi player character party, true, but aside from that?

 

Agreed, and I strongly suspect that a) there is a lot more to her than the patriarchal "public culture" of Dara Happa might let on, while also b) some of the more ancient roots of hers are suppressed. Just some personal impressions.

There are likely to be more female deities associated with Dendara or Oria about, but probably not quite to the same martial extend as for the Orlanthi. The Orlanthi, while a gendered society, does value heroism to the point of deliberately making room for female fighter heroes, but the same isn't really true for urban Dara Happa, and rural Lodrilites don't seem too into violent heroism as a cultural ideal in general (though Turos in Pelanda does provide a more active Lodrilite ideal).

We do have Gorgorma (sp?), who is sort-of-similar to the Orlanthi "Gor" goddesses, in that she is a goddess of female reprisal against male wrongdoers, but she's not quite the bruiser Babeester is, and not really the domineering matron Maran is, being some kind of hooded crone with a terrifying vagina dentata if I remember correctly (and I might be remembering this wildly wrong, it's been a while). Then again, even followers of Ty Kora Tek get to smash stuff if there's undead or vampires nearby, so you could probably write up something for a Gorgormite adventurer as well.

We also have Yelorna, who is either the sister of, or the female aspect of Yelmalio, but I'm not sure if her cult is active in Peloria anymore, and even so, I feel like it's one of those weirdo cults that players love talking about, but that probably does not have a huge societal impact.

And then we have the river-based goddesses like Oslira herself, and the Heron Goddess. They seem like they could be a bit more proactive and arguably adventurous - and even if we look away from trying to fit every deity into an adventuring-shaped hole, we can still probably argue that these goddesses are less prone to answer to male authority.

We could talk more about local deities like the Darsenites, but I get the feel that this isn't quite what you're looking for - and in all honesty, this is one of the things I don't really like about Peloria, where you have all these mentions of local deities, but with not a huge amount of unifying traditions that you can draw on for storytelling, aside from the overarching "Yelm is the Emperor" trope.

All in all - for female empowerment and agency, the Lunar religion acts as the enabling trope, I think. It upends or at least lessens a lot of gender-based restrictions, and allows women to reach for positions of power and freedom to a much larger degree than before, and to make this thematically important, pre-Lunar women of the Dara Happan heartland at least, arguably have to be oppressed, which means the same goes for those cults. (or if not oppressed, at least, uh, "domesticated", which arguably is just a euphemism anyway).

And before I completely forget it in this rambling about Pelorian opportunities for adventuring women: I fully agree that more details on the "lived reality" (as anthropologists put it) of Dara Happan women would be great. Their daily chores, their rituals, their hopes and ambitions and their fears and worries. Do we see great public festivals celebrating Dendara, or are these domestic, private affairs? Does the Cult of Dendara act submissively, or is it in fact a gathering place for powerful women to make influential decisions behind the scenes? Do they hold important ritual statuses that make them inviolate? Does the cult provide some societal service like charity, shelter, some cosmically important ritual that must be performed every year, can the cult be used to bring other gods in line (maybe it's the only cult that can alleviate the wrath of Yelm or somesuch notion). Are there sub-sects that have entirely subversive ideals, or is it a factor of social conservatism and fiercely competitive with Lunar deities? Do men give thanks to Dendara before eating a meal, or before putting on new clothes, or are they required to ask a woman for permission to enter the house so as to preserve Virtue? Does she help with midwifery, or does she bless tools like needles and spindles, or can she keep disease away, or increase fertility (I know Oria can), does Dendara have agents of reprisal? Does Dara Happa have some kind of pseudo-medieval chivalry thing going on where men dedicate themselves to Dendara to uphold some kind of chastity ideals until they are married, or can Dara Happan women bare their breast in moments of outrageous protest to remind their men that they have acted unvirtuous against their women, like Roman women allegedly did?

The answer to lots of this is probably "no", but I've got questions, and it's good to ask them at least. I don't want Dendara to be an Ernalda-clone though.

 

3 hours ago, None said:

I'm pretty sure Dendara is light rune and harmony rune, the same as the main female goddes of Kraklorea.

 

I haven't been able to see this anywhere, so I wouldn't know. This is interesting though, since we don't really know where she came from. For all we know, Yelm emanated his own wife specifically for that purpose. (Warning: heresy).
 

3 hours ago, None said:

edit: another long post, I've tried to parttion it this time at least. I also prefer not to double-post.

Not to worry! Mine is more long-winded, and I'm not even the worse one around here, so don't think about it.

[Bill the barbarian]

3 hours ago, None said:

Thank you. (I didn't watch it, sorry but I'm a bit picky about video clips and the like, but I accept the salute nontheless.)

 

Not a worry, seeing as the clip came from a show usually panned by critics called Hee Haw, well let’s just say many might be called picky when it came to watching Hee Haw (but that was usually due to having taste).

Salute!

[Eff]

Some minor points, all IMO:

I think Dendara is Air-associated, and Orlanthi understand her as Molanni or possibly Brastalos. 

My primary reasons, within a Gloranthan scope:

Earth and Water are both sources of spiritual pollution in Dara Happan mythology and culture, but Earth is more respectable than Water (Lodril wrestles Nendestos, even though he fails, etc.) and Ernalda's Earth was kept chained by the Emperor. This is agreed upon by Orlanthi and Hyalorong sources. So it would be strange for Yelm to then wed a Water deity. But we know that Entekos and Right Air are more refined than Earth and Water, and that Entekos and Dendara are closely related somehow. 

So Dendara brings rain because her Virtue is strong enough to control Water without pollution. 

 

Out of Gloranthan scope, this helps confound the gender-essentialist implications by making a Stormy personality a sign of refined femininity in Peloria and thus instead of Fire men and Earth women it's Fire men and Air/Storm women as the cultural ideals. It would be even better to develop cultures with Earthy masculinity, Firey femininity, etc., but this starts from common ground and has some reasonable support. 

A Fire personality type will be somewhat arbitrary given that the primary models we have are deities as diverse in behavior as Yelm, Dayzatar, Shargash, Lodril, Yelmalio, Elmal etc., only some of which can be explained by splitting Fire, Sky, Light, Heat, etc. (Six Ages slightly implies Shargash is a Light deity, after all.)

I think the implication overall is that Fire is about being rationalist in the sense of reason as opposed to Earth's empiricism or Moon's irrationalism/dreaminess. But that may be difficult to sustain, since it also appears to imply hierarchicality.

I have thoughts about the seeming ubiquity of Ernalda, but they're not quite developed yet.

[None]

2 hours ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

There are some who will be ready to tell you that actually the West was developed first - but that was a very, very long time ago.

Really? That's interesting.

As for the Orlanthi being the most detailed, yes that's fair. I think what really irks me there is that each rune can only be owned by one god as I understand it and excluding Chalanna Arroy who appears just about everywhere I've looked I haven't been able to find any of those orlanthi gods outside the orlanthi. Orlanth and Ernalad even manged the unique accomplishment of sort of in a way, somethimes owning two runes each. The orlanthi also seem unique in having acces to all elemental runes one way or another, varying from clan to clan of course.

2 hours ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

6 hours ago, None said:

I don't want to accuse anyone (well I supose that 'one' is Greg) but it's probably because Orlanth and Ernalda is likely to have been designed first with everything else built around them. I've seen it happen before and done it myself where you give too much to your first creations and end up limiting everything else.  Even if you don't mean to. I mean, the orlanthi has what? Half of all rune owning gods in the whole setting? It's very useful when you whant to make a diverse orlanthi player character party, true, but aside from that?

 

Agreed, and I strongly suspect that a) there is a lot more to her than the patriarchal "public culture" of Dara Happa might let on, while also b) some of the more ancient roots of hers are suppressed. Just some personal impressions.

Your quote here  is a little  missplaced but I think I can guess what you're agreeing to. With the risk of beeing contrarian I, partly because of this:

2 hours ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

I don't want Dendara to be an Ernalda-clone though.

and partly because Dendara's argument (according to the Reascent of Yelm) pretty much was 'I'm not much but I'll always do as you say and I wont get in your way or anoy you', actually prefer it if she was as loyal and deferential as she seems and took her expected role and possition seriously. It also fits with the sky/fire rune and most likely with the light rune. You already have Ernalda for women who secretly (and sometimes not so secretly) controll everything from behind the scenes, I'd say having Dendara and Ernalda contrast each other is important.

Also none of this prevents priestesses of Dendara from being sacred or mean Dara Happa women (I would say pelorian but I don't know enough of peloria as a whole) have to be marginalized or unimportant. iI just mean they have a different attitude and way of being, and different values witch should fit with them being light rune and not earth rune.

Granted, it does mean that they're not a perfect fit for adventuring roles (at least not the typical Dendara woman) but I don't think every part of every society everywhere should.

Not even all the orlanthi cults are natural fits for clasical (or, I think, even vuagely clasical in a few cases) adventurers.

 

edit: oh and I'm certain Dendara is written as light rune and harmony rune somewhere in the Guide to Glorantha, I don't remember the page but Yelm and several other solar gods as well as storm gods, darkness gods, water gods, kralorean gods and many more were listed there too.

Edited November 19, 2019 by None

[Sir_Godspeed]

38 minutes ago, Eff said:

I think Dendara is Air-associated, and Orlanthi understand her as Molanni or possibly Brastalos. 

 

I would agree for Entekos (although I would argue that a better candidate is Serenha, as a direct descendant of Umath, Primal Air), but the connection between Entekos and Dendara is multifaceted, incomplete, and still mysterious.
 

40 minutes ago, Eff said:

So Dendara brings rain because her Virtue is strong enough to control Water without pollution. 

 

Not a bad idea.
 

40 minutes ago, Eff said:

Out of Gloranthan scope, this helps confound the gender-essentialist implications by making a Stormy personality a sign of refined femininity in Peloria and thus instead of Fire men and Earth women it's Fire men and Air/Storm women as the cultural ideals. It would be even better to develop cultures with Earthy masculinity, Firey femininity, etc., but this starts from common ground and has some reasonable support. 

 

Again, not a bad idea. We might even have two feminine ideals: the Earth Lodrilite peasant women, and the Air Dara Happan urban citizen-women.

 

 

41 minutes ago, Eff said:

A Fire personality type will be somewhat arbitrary given that the primary models we have are deities as diverse in behavior as Yelm, Dayzatar, Shargash, Lodril, Yelmalio, Elmal etc., only some of which can be explained by splitting Fire, Sky, Light, Heat, etc. (Six Ages slightly implies Shargash is a Light deity, after all.)

 

Yeah, I'm not crazy about Runic behaviour determinism, it seems more like a storytelling straightjacket than a useful explanatory tool.

I'm a bit surprised to see Shargash mentioned in relation to Light thought. I know Shargash is shown attempting to usurp the Sun Path in the game, but he is generally associated with literal fire (slash and burn agriculture), or the underworld.

 

43 minutes ago, Eff said:

I think the implication overall is that Fire is about being rationalist in the sense of reason as opposed to Earth's empiricism or Moon's irrationalism/dreaminess. But that may be difficult to sustain, since it also appears to imply hierarchicality.

 

Interesting idea, and worth exploring further - though as all things, there's definitely an overlap here, what with Solar transcendental traditions in Nysalor or Yelmalio, or Earth mystic/irrational traditions in Earth Witch.

[None]

1 hour ago, Eff said:

I think Dendara is Air-associated, and Orlanthi understand her as Molanni or possibly Brastalos. 

I can't say anything about the Entekosiad but I checked it out in the Guide to Glorantha, volume I page 152-153. Both the solar pantheon's Dendara and Kralorela's Halisayan are called 'the good wife' and are light rune and harmony rune.

[Sir_Godspeed]

7 minutes ago, None said:

Really? That's interesting.

 

@Joerg can tell you more, but I believe the stories about Hrestol is the first stuff that was written for Glorantha - although it might not have been consciously connected to the "White Bear & Red Moon"-world at the time. I wouldn't know.
 

8 minutes ago, None said:

Really? That's interesting.

 

This is entering a rather big debate on the "essentialism" of divine identity. For example, both Buserian and Lhankor Mhy are bearded scholar gods of their respective cultures, associated with writing and preservation of knowledge and social organization. But are they just different names for the same gods? Are they the different expressions of a shared runic or divine archetype? Are they completely separate entities doing similar jobs? This sort of thing is the source of a lot debates on Glorantha. We have similar stories for Tolat-Shargash, Urox-Storm Bull (almost everyone agrees this is the same, but rules wise they can be presented differently, which can confuse or frustrate some people), and more esoteric stuff like Lodril-Balumbasta-Veskarthan-Turos-ViSaruDaran-MonsterMan, Aether-TarnGatHa, Vith-Yelm, Govmeranen-Murharzam, some of which are generally accepted, others which might be based on in-universe confusion or just faulty reading by us, and of course the perennial thorn in many people's eyes: Elmal-Yelmalio(-Yelm). In many cases, I tend towards a mix of explanations that allow divine archetypes to reappear, but still allows them some particular identities, like the fingers on a hand all being part of a greater whole, while still being different in their own way.

This brings us to the notion of "owning runes" which I personally feel is a very "gamey" concept that I've never been very happy with. The best I can say is that the scheme you find in the GtG over "rune-ownership" is that it's a God Learner attempt to chart Runic power and so on, and it's not really meant as a out-of-universe, objective document. A Fonritan or Vithelan would find it absolutely ridiculous, for example. But it might fit with a quick name swap which doesn't necessarily alter the underlying analysis.

And yes, the Orlanthi are... diverse. Partly this is because of their very origin myth as being collected from the outcasts of many societies (something that both Umath and later to a larger degree Orlanth had as deliverate policies - hence the Clan Ring and Stranger Adoption as important social institutions), and partly because, well, there's a Orlanthi Player Character bias, so giving them many options is kind of a given. I can only assume that something similar can be done for Pelorians or Ralians down the line, hypothetically.

I think it can be useful to think of these gods less as "the Orlanthi gods", and maybe more as "the Orlanthi notion of the Gods", if that makes sense.

 

 

23 minutes ago, None said:

and partly because Dendara's argument (according to the Reascent of Yelm) pretty much was 'I'm not much but I'll always do as you say and I wont get in your way or anoy you', actually prefer it if she was as loyal and deferential as she seems and took her expected role and possition seriously. It also fits with the sky/fire rune and most likely with the light rune. You already have Ernalda for women who secretly (and sometimes not so secretly) controll everything from behind the scenes, I'd say having Dendara and Ernalda contrast each other is important.

Also none of this prevents priestesses of Dendara from being sacred or mean Dara Happa women (I would say pelorian but I don't know enough of peloria as a whole) have to be marginalized or unimportant. iI just mean they have a different attitude and way of being, and different values witch should fit with them being light rune and not earth rune.

Granted, it does mean that they're not a perfect fit for adventuring roles (at least not the typical Dendara woman) but I don't think every part of every society everywhere should.

Not even all the orlanthi cults are natural fits for clasical (or, I think, even vuagely clasical in a few cases) adventurers.

All fair points.

[None]

1 hour ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

This is entering a rather big debate on the "essentialism" of divine identity. For example, both Buserian and Lhankor Mhy are bearded scholar gods of their respective cultures, associated with writing and preservation of knowledge and social organization. But are they just different names for the same gods? Are they the different expressions of a shared runic or divine archetype? Are they completely separate entities doing similar jobs? This sort of thing is the source of a lot debates on Glorantha.

Yes I've heard about some of that. It doesn't actually bother me all that much from an in-game perspective. Not even the Elmal/Yelmalio thing and I've never considered Yelm a part of that one thing at all. I can even accept it when the possibly same god is weaker for one culture than it is for another if the reasons are good, and the whole thing about widely different cultures sharing the same god or goddes is even less of an issue to me with the likes of Lhankor Mhy or Chalanna Arroy were no elemental rune is involved.

My issue is mostly from a game design perspective when you let one civilization or culture hog the majority of the gods in their most powerful aspects or itterations. I can understand why you'd want to do it with the designated player character culture but that doeasn't mean I really like it, or the consequenses (dammit, I don't think I can spell that word) it has for the rest of the setting.

I also didn't know the storm bull appeard anywher outside Prax and the orlanthi. I thought he was unique to them, which is quite a big deal considering he's the only one with the anti-chaos rune.

[Qizilbashwoman]

7 minutes ago, None said:

I also didn't know the storm bull appeard anywher outside Prax and the orlanthi.

Jeff has identified Kereus, god of the Tawari, as Storm Bull and they're Pelorian cattle hsunchen (well, formerly; I don't think they're shapeshifters anymore). Waha also is present in Peloria under another name.

[Sir_Godspeed]

15 minutes ago, None said:

My issue is mostly from a game design perspective when you let one civilization or culture hog the majority of the gods in their most powerful aspects or itterations. I can understand why you'd want to do it with the designated player character culture but that doeasn't mean I really like it, or the consequenses (dammit, I don't think I can spell that word) it has for the rest of the setting.

 

I'd mostly chalk it up to, again, the God Learners having an Orlanthi bias in how they came to understand and know theists. The God Learners - who are generally considered to be the makers of these runic lattices and explanation models - were geographically locked off from the Pelorians, and only much later in their conquests met with Pamaltelans and Vithelans, so their primary terminology for - for example - the Storm God tends to be drawn from Orlanthi neighbors, ie. Orlanth, even though they could hypothetically have used West Wind (Pentans), or Worlath (Ralios), and so on.

Now, admittedly, I'd go further and argue that in fact deities like Entekos and Ygg also have an equal claim to "owning" the Storm Rune, but again, since the Orlanthi are spread out across a larger area, and have very influential myths and worship, tend to reinforce their own beliefs in their own areas. (I've argued that Doburdun, Entekos' thundering minion/attendant god, is really just a Pelorian version of Orlanth, but tamed and largely neutered, but others insist this is a completely different entitity. Impossible to say.) To put it differently - I doubt an Orlanthi cult could just strut onto Ygg's Isles and proclaim Orlanth's superiority over Ygg with magical supremacy. I know some others disagree with me here, but that's my take on it. I'm not a huge fan of "objective" assesments of "rune ownership", which again I think feels weirdly gamey.
 

15 minutes ago, None said:

I also didn't know the storm bull appeard anywher outside Prax and the orlanthi. I thought he was unique to them, which is quite a big deal considering he's the only one with the anti-chaos rune.

He appears as South Rage Wind to the Storm Pentans, and I strongly believe he was the primary god of ancient Fronelan Bull peoples (Tawari, etc.), of which modern Charg is perhaps the last remnant (and will soon be released with tons of Bull Barbarians bearing down on the Lunar Empire once the Thaw reaches it, at least that's the official line). There's some question as to whether he was ever incorporated into Pelandan/Orinini culture, since the Fronelan Bull People were defeated and eventually integrated there, but so far I think maybe the most likely candidate for that - Bisos - has been identified with either Waha (as an animal killer/sacrificer) or Lhankor Mhy/Buserian (or was it Issaries?) due to priestly duties.

He might've been associated with the Bull People horde that invaded Pamaltela in God Time as well, but that's also a bit iffy, and at any rate they're not around anymore.

Edited November 19, 2019 by Sir_Godspeed

[Sir_Godspeed]

4 minutes ago, Qizilbashwoman said:

Jeff has identified Kereus, god of the Tawari, as Storm Bull and they're Pelorian cattle hsunchen (well, formerly; I don't think they're shapeshifters anymore). Waha also is present in Peloria under another name.

Ah, thanks - add my post in with this.

[Qizilbashwoman]

1 minute ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

Ah, thanks - add my post in with this.

The Kereusi subgroup of Tawari were Gamatae and during the Grey Age were the origin of the Lendarshi renaissance, the Great Accord. Lendarsh was a Kereusi!

[Sir_Godspeed]

Just now, Qizilbashwoman said:

The Kereusi subgroup of Tawari were Gamatae and during the Grey Age were the origin of the Lendarshi renaissance, the Great Accord. Lendarsh was a Kereusi!

I thought the Gamatae Lendarshi *defeated* the Tawari?