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Personalities of the Fire, Light and Heat Runes

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5 hours ago, None said:

So why didn't they like the Dragon Sun?

Because... it's a Dragon? Something alien and vastly different that does not think about humans, perhaps. After all, it has lacks the form that all expected the Emperor to have.

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I think the dislike of the dragon also has to be seen in a contextual light: the barbarians in the south were all goo-goo about dragons at the time, which obviously makes dragons A Bad Thing, because everyone knows southern barbarians are inferior and dumb and also smelly.

Call it the "Scaley Scare" if you will. No way were they going to have some damn scalo in the presidency on the imperial throne.

Edited by Sir_Godspeed
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17 hours ago, Mirza said:

Joerg is referencing Khordavu, the first Dara Happan Emperor post the Dawn during the First Age circa 250 S.T. whom with the aid of Plentonius the scholar, "resurrected" shall we say the true worship of Yelm and the Dara Happan empire from the scattered remnants of the Solar peoples.

There is a theory in the forums here that Khordavu didn't actually resurrect Yelm's true worship, and that it was more a wholesale invention somewhat similar to Sedenya from various "Little Sun" myths and fragments. That makes it seem a bit more cynical than perhaps it was though, everyone in Peloria seemed to be aware that once they worshiped the Sun undivided and unmarred back during the Golden Age but that worship was lost with the Sun's death, and the subsequent dissolution of the ancient Solar Empire. But now the Sun's back but the "proper" worship isn't truly there, in steps Khordavu.

Some of the people here have speculated that "Yelm" was previously an office to be held by the pre-eminent Sky Diety of that time, with various gods we know as "Yelm" such as Arraz (Perhaps the first Yelm), Ourania, Polestar (I think), and Murharazam (as the one Orlanth kills). There might be more that people have said, those are just the ones I remember hearing speculation about off the top of my head.

So Khordavu wasn't purely cynical when he worked with Plentonius to "resurrect" the cult of Yelm, sure there was some cynicism in that it allowed Khordavu to achieve the greatest personal power, but it seems clear to some extent that Khordavu believed in the One Sun.

There is also another small accompanying theory that goes along with this one, that during the Sunstop one of the Unity Councillors a descendant of Khordavu, the Emperor Khorzanelm imposed the truth of Yelm on the Sun, and that was the true moment of (re)birth for Yelm from an outsiders perspective.

Wasn't there a theory here a while ago that the modern Yelm (or at least modern Yelm worship) wasn't even finished until Yelmgatha got together with Sedenya and worked it out or something? I forget.

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1 hour ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

Wasn't there a theory here a while ago that the modern Yelm (or at least modern Yelm worship) wasn't even finished until Yelmgatha got together with Sedenya and worked it out or something? I forget.

The only thing I heard was the reckoning of the Suns that happened with Nysalor: the idea that Nysalor sorted out once and for all who Yelm was and wasn't, and so forth.

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1 hour ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

Wasn't there a theory here a while ago that the modern Yelm (or at least modern Yelm worship) wasn't even finished until Yelmgatha got together with Sedenya and worked it out or something? I forget.

Well, we know that at some point the Glorious ReAscent of Yelm was lost outside Alkoth and Yelmgatha recovered it. The big questions here are 1) when did this loss happen? After the Bright Empire? After the Dragon Sun? During the Yelm Is Not movement? Under the Carmanian Emperors? The time interval certainly seems like it needs to be longer than the Carmanians or Yelm-is-Nots as the cause. 2) How important is the Glorious ReAscent to solar worship? Is it the equivalent of the Kojiki? The Sibylline Oracles? If the GRoY is important for the proper worship of Yelm, then it may well be the case that Dara Happan religion in its current form is younger than the Lunar Way (though by only a few years). I don't think this is likely, but certainly it seems plausible that there's a religious reformation at that point. 

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4 hours ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

Wasn't there a theory here a while ago that the modern Yelm (or at least modern Yelm worship) wasn't even finished until Yelmgatha got together with Sedenya and worked it out or something? I forget.

If you look at Plentonius grouping the years as 1000K, 100K, 10k, 1000, 100, 10, 1, 10, 100 and arriving at 221 S.T., you are bound to ask what has happened in 1221 S.T.

Now Yelmgatha's reign comes with about 27 years delay, but there is a rite in 1220 which does affect the Dara Happan religion.

(It takes a whiled for AgartuSay to rule Dara Happa, but he does manage, twice.)

The 375 Sun Stop and subsequent changes in dynasties - often accompanied by religious reforms - are absent from Plentonius' math, though.

3 hours ago, Eff said:

How important is the Glorious ReAscent to solar worship?

It might have the same importance as the Arthurian legends had to the Norman conquerors.

When Plentonius wrote his book, for the first time since the end of the Ice Age the Dara Happans were ruled again by a dynasty from their urban culture. He laid down the official versions of the myths that led to the Founding of Dara Happa with his rather complete account of the Anaxial dynasty and his less convincing reports about the decline of the early "reign of Antirius". His Murharzarm stories have elements which must be fantastic to his contemporary audience already, with gazzam being the source of wealth in riverine Dara Happa.

His accounts on Dara Happa before the rivers is .. not really about Dara Happa.

I don't think that Plentonius was aware of the Copper Tablets, which show riverine Dara Happa from an elevated point of view (like e.g. the peak of the Spike). The descent of Lodril and ascension of Dayzatar is shown on the first of those tablets.

 

3 hours ago, Eff said:

when did this loss happen?

This isn't quite clear. GRoY p.80 says "lost for centuries", which exculpates the Carmanian bull shah conquerors of Dara Happa. Possible earlier points are plenty, and may go hand in hand with some of the changes in Yelm worship and condemnation of Nysalorean practices.

On one hand, the GRoY contains a manual for the Ten Tests.

Being linked to Khordavu, the protegee of Davu, makes this tome possibly suspect in the anti-Nysalorean movements.

One possible point of disappearance is under Heredesh, when the heavily edited Unity List provided a merger of Pelandan and Dara Happan rulers, being over-complete. Yelmgatha challenges this list by providing "proof of absence" for many of those early entries with his copy of the Glorious ReAscent. Any earlier point is possible, as far back as the Gbaji Wars when Vastolf conquered Raibanth.

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On 11/30/2019 at 2:43 PM, None said:

I see. So why didn't they like the Dragon Sun?

They did like him while he was around. Then they all claimed not to have liked him at all, after he was killed.

In my Glorantha, after the Dragonrise, the Dara Happans turn to a lot of secret knowledge about the Sun dragon and his cults and bring some of them back.

The Red Emperor commits Utuma, to atone for his sins, so he does that as the Golden Sun Dragon, which is just another Aspect of Yelm the Emperor.

On 11/30/2019 at 3:50 PM, Eff said:

The Dragon Sun themself is described as "not an emperor" though passing all Ten Tests and wearing the regalia properly. They were apparently so popular they brought about a significant amount of conversion to solar draconism, and had so much raw power nobody even tried to rebel until Karvanyar. And then Karvanyar's dynasty spends about a century first overthrowing EWF rule of Kostaddi and Saird, and then purging foreign influences from Dara Happa and promoting the "Yelm Is Not" movement. 

Well, they would say that, wouldn't they? He cheated on the Ten Tests, he wasn't really an Emperor, he was a Dragon not a Person and so on. He looked like an Emperor, behaved like an Emperor and ruled like an Emperor.

 

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23 minutes ago, Qizilbashwoman said:

this is part of the "Sister sacrifices Emperor" event, except YGMV?

Yes, I remember reading the Guide and seeing that the Red Emperor commits utuma, thinking "Hey, that's cool". It might be part of a greater ritual, of course. It isn't the kind if thing I'd just make up, as I'm not that creative.

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On 11/30/2019 at 4:50 PM, Eff said:

Then in the section for Karvanyar's reign, it's noted that the Dragon Sun stole Urvanyar's "heart and eyes", but that the rest of him gave birth to Karvanyar. 

Now I have to ask what thos 'heart and eyes' is?

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17 minutes ago, None said:

Now I have to ask what thos 'heart and eyes' is?

The text is not clear/deliberately vague. However, Dara Happans divide the soul into six portions- the physical body, the life force, the fertility, the intellect, the shadow, and the awareness. "Heart and eyes", if they are not a literal reference, seem to suggest the life force and awareness (or Warmth Portion and Sight Portion, in DH terminology). Or, alternately, seeing someone come back with a drastically altered physical body and acting in a very different way than they had before.

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I'm getting some doppelganger, imposter, or possession vibes from it, but it's a curious choice of words that could mean a lot of different things. At least I suspect some identity tomfoolery was going on.

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1 hour ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

I'm getting some doppelganger, imposter, or possession vibes from it, but it's a curious choice of words that could mean a lot of different things. At least I suspect some identity tomfoolery was going on.

This could simply be the result of a heroquest challenge between Urvanyar and the Golden Dragon, with two (crucial) Yelmic powers lost to the Sun or Golden Dragon mystic.

Sight is the primary sense of Yelm. Being blinded removes Urvanyar from any chance of completing the Ten Tests. Taking his heart... that is less clearly defined in the role of an emperor, and I am inclined to argue that a heartless emperor of Dara Happa wouldn't miss anything that his predecessors had needed to fulfill their position.

 

Jar-eel lost her heart in battles against Sartar at least twice - once to Harrek, once to Annstad.

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15 minutes ago, Joerg said:

a heartless emperor of Dara Happa wouldn't miss anything

I wouldn't be surprised if the "heart" here is one of the unspeakable euphemisms for something else on the plate that a real flesh emperor requires and the dragon needed to fake its way through. The genteel compiler would have known the truth but refused to commit to posterity.

More broadly there is probably a rich tradition of canopic magic submerged in "portions of yelm" talk in the north and then developed in literally nightmarish profusion by the Wizards of Gore to the east, with or without troll mumia behind it. 

They cut the body into parts, the way that trolls do.

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Actually, one rune that seem to be associated rather closely with the Sun/Sky Rune is the Stasis Rune but what can you actually do with it?

Since it is a rune that is apparently non-existent among the Orlanthi (and there defenitely aren't any Orlanthi gods with the Stasis Rune that I know of) tyhe HeroQuest Glorantha book is also completely uninterested in that particular rune. Something that poses a problem due to the systems buld-it-yourself nature when it comes to magic.

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23 minutes ago, None said:

but what can you actually do with it?

Preserve things, stabilize things, remember things, order or organize things. It's the rune of Mostal for one. It's the rune of craftsmen and builders. 

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22 hours ago, jajagappa said:

Preserve things, stabilize things, remember things, order or organize things. It's the rune of Mostal for one. It's the rune of craftsmen and builders. 

Ooh, most of that I didn't expect.

I figured that it could be used to resit harm or being moved, and possibly to keep a society stable (kind of like a low grade harmony rune) but of the ones above I would only have thought of preserving things. Thanks.

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