Personalities of the Fire, Light and Heat Runes

[None]

18 hours ago, Eff said:

Dara Happans and Pelandans and miscellaneous Lodrilli are more stratified, so they have at a minimum a division between peasant woman goddess Oria/Biselenslib and citizen woman goddess Dendara/Ourania, plus Gorgorma as an anti-ideal. 

I can see what you mean about the stratification and distinction between peasant women and citizen women.

 

15 hours ago, M Helsdon said:

Dendara has a write-up in the forthcoming Cults of Glorantha, I believe.

Her Runes are Fertility, Earth, Harmony.

 

15 hours ago, Qizilbashwoman said:

... earth?

I have to echo that.

... Earth?

With the added. Three runes? With those runes she'd be identical to Ernalda in that regard.

9 hours ago, Qizilbashwoman said:

i'm dissatisfied with her being Earth only because the story of the Rebel Gods is of the Earth goddess rebelling and leaving. I'd be happier if she was some other kind of elemental deity.

Agreed, although I'd be dissatisfied with her bing earth even if the Earth goddesses hadn't rebelled and left.

 

Anyway, moving on.

13 hours ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

I personally think we find "women's goddess" in almost all cultures. Sometimes it's an Earth Goddess, sometimes a Crop Goddess, sometimes it's a Horse Goddess (Gamara seems to have this role in the equestrian cultures), and some times it might be some other animal goddess (Eirithia, obvs., but also Entra/Entrula, etc.). We might have some other cases as well (maybe water or what have you, such as the Enslib godesses), not including the obvious Elder Races ones (ie. Kyger Litor and so on).

I also think it's better to think of these godesses less as "the goddess of women", and more as "the goddesses of the things women do/the things that make women women". That's why we so often find a focus on how they contribute to their societies and have sacred activities, in addition to stuff like childbirth and so on. 

That does seem likely I just wish the material was more clear on this because at a cursory glance and even at more than that I'm willing to bet almst any newcomer to the setting would believe Ernalda to be the universal goddess of all women. Just as Orlanth and Yelm seem to have divided the title of unversal god of all men between them. (I know the praxians have their own and for all apearances very local versions in Waha and Eiritha but their both lesser relatives to Orlanth and Ernalda respectively. Something I'm sure at least someone will dispute but that's how it looks.)

Who's the Enslib goddess?

 

8 hours ago, Joerg said:

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I mean, the orlanthi has what? Half of all rune owning gods in the whole setting?

To be fair, Issaries, LM, Eurmal, Chalana Arroy and Humakt are far more universal than just limited to Orlanth. Having Mastakos is overkill, but then Orlanth is grandson of Larnste and would be a likely heir if not for his paternal heritage of Storm.

Yelm used to have all the rune owners (except for Umath) in his celestial pantheon.

Rune ownership has few in-game consequences, other than for Resurrection and Sever Spirit as resuable spells. And Chalana is part of the Yelm pantheon, and Humakt is the Carmanian death god, too. (Though wasp-headed there.)

Both Issaries and Lhankor Mhy lack elemental runes so I can easily see that even though I've never seen the former outside the Olanthi. Humakt removed his own Storm rune to gain Death wasn't it? I've never seen him outside the Orlanthi either (I count the ducks as basically Orlanthi) but I'm happy he also exists at least somewhere else. I straight out assumed Chalana Arroy could be found everywhere one way or another, it fits her nature.

Lhankor Mhy isn't the owner of the Truth rune though (except when he's sometimes marked as that, it confusing) Dayzatar is.

Rune ownership means quite a bit more in HeroQuest Glorantha.

 

9 hours ago, Joerg said:

Dendara being an enigma:

What you wrote was quite interesting if not as useful for shedding light on the matter as I would have liked. Even if you say her elemental conection isn't dominant I'm having trouble imagining  Dendara as Storm aspected considering that runes temprament and the fact that she existed before it. Similarily with an Earth aspect the temprament of the Earth rune complicates everything when compared to how Dendara seem to be portrayed and then there's that bit about Yelm vemehently refusing to have anything to do with Earth goddesses
(that was Lodrils thing).

While we're on the subject, what about Kralorela's Halisayan? She's given the same description (i.e. the good wife) and runes as Dendara in Guide to Glorantha.

 

Also, something I should've asked earlier. Is Lodril literally the only god with the Heat rune?

[Eff]

20 minutes ago, None said:

Who's the Enslib goddess?

BiselEnslib is the city goddess of Alkoth, and also the goddess of rice in Dara Happa generally. She was the first wife of Shargash. She is known as the "long-legged goddess" and is identified with the figure at III-10 on the Gods Wall, who is a figure with a heron's head and bird legs wearing a short, plain sarong belted with a belt with Earth runes on it. 

SurEnslib is the patron goddess of the region of Darjiin and is held by the Darjiini to be the creator of the universe from the sun and planets down to their ancestors. Her rites include ritual sexual activity which is sometimes dangerous for her partners- the mask Venerabilis of the Red Emperor was devoured by her during said rites. She is detested, like the Darjiini in general are, by the Dara Happans of the cities and is called a "lewd goddess". She is called a Heron Goddess outright and is associated with the figure at III-24 on the Gods Wall, who is a figure with a heron's head and bird legs wearing a long sarong decorated with waves on the bottom, belted with a belt with Earth Runes on it, standing noticeably taller than III-10. 

It is tempting to identify SurEnslib as mother of BiselEnslib, but I don't think that's ever been explicitly said. Of course, our sources are mostly people like Plentonius who would reject that association or Lunars who would phrase it as obscurely as possible. 

There may be other such goddesses, or "Enslib" may mean something which would make other goddesses have an appropriate epithet using it. 

[Sir_Godspeed]

8 hours ago, Joerg said:

If you look at the location of Alkoth, I doubt very strongly that the wetlands around the city had demand for slashand-burn agriculture.

I'd argue that the wetlands around Alkoth did not yet exist when he was a swidden god.
 

8 hours ago, Joerg said:

Much like Orlanth, Shargash has a feat as regulator of the wild river, as water manager,

Isn't his role in this myth that he fails and then Murharzarm has to step in with water management?
 

8 hours ago, Joerg said:

In the Underworld, Shargash adopts the traits of Shadzor

Unless Shadzor is just a Theyelan mispronounciation of Shargash. Although I'd agree that whatever happened f**** him up. If we want to call that traumatized side "Shadzor", that's fine.
 

57 minutes ago, None said:

(I know the praxians have their own and for all apearances very local versions in Waha and Eiritha but their both lesser relatives to Orlanth and Ernalda respectively.

Well, that's what the Orlanthi would say. I'm not so sure the Praxians see it like that, even if they arguably have assimilated some Orlanthi mythology. Again, as RW players and readers we are subconsciously influenced by the fact that the material we read - and which appears to us as the kind of "omniscient narrator"-style information that you'd find in a D&D Gods manual or something - is actually pseudo-in-universe texts, to a large degree based on God Learners research into divine/runic relations by way of studying mostly Orlanthi peoples. And that's not even taking into account how a lot of those God Learner texts have in turn been edited and "made safe" by Orlanthi scholars later. 

Pretty much the entire written catalogue of Glorantha, as best as I can tell, makes use of an in-universe perspective, even if it isn't explicitly meant as an in-universe text. It's similar to the anthropological adage that "you can't stand nowhere, you have to stand somewhere".

A very valid criticism is that you can't expect a newcomer to Glorantha to understand that. It's entirely reasonable of them to assume that most of these texts are, essentially, fairly objective, straightforward texts a la D&D manuals, or even the Ainulindalë of Tolkien.

I know that the writers at Chaosium have given this a serious amount of thought, and that there is currently some simplification/straightforwarding going on behind the scenes that we're not privy to. The most obvious, and most controversial one is how Elmal is just straight up identified with Yelmalio now, and done so with a pretty "objective" authoritative voice (similar to how Lodril, Turos and Veskarthan are identified to the point of the names often being used interchangeably by in-universe authors and fans alike) .Some people dislike that (including me, to a certain point), but it's undeniable that such moves will make the universe more welcoming to newcomers, and there is merit in that.
 

57 minutes ago, None said:

Something I'm sure at least someone will dispute but that's how it looks.)

You're learning quickly! XD

 

Edited November 20, 2019 by Sir_Godspeed

[Sir_Godspeed]

Something that's interesting, and not touched on often enough is how the Dara Happans seem obsessed with presenting Yelm as a monogamous husband-pater familias, while we have a good deal of myths that either strongly imply, or outright state (albeit from Orlanthi sources) that he had a harem and many concubines, and may even have been properly married before being with Dendara. I think the whole "Yelm wouldn't be with [X] type of goddess" is a product of Dara Happan religious orthodoxy, and not really evident mythologically. Granted, that doesn't quite open the door for Dendara being a full-on Earth goddess, since ultimately this is a cult that needs to be accepted IN Dara Happan society, whatever kind of goddess she turns out to be.

This is a massive aside, but I honestly wish Yelm had been married to Ourania or something. The Day Sky being married to the Night Sky would have had a nice symmetry to it, plus stars are nice and could have captured a basic "motherhood" theme if so desired. A sort of Gloranthan Elbereth Gilthoniel, if you will.

Obviously, that's not what happened, so it's pointless to discuss, but it's been simmering in the back of my mind for a while, so I just wanted to put it out somewhere.

[Eff]

2 minutes ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

Something that's interesting, and not touched on often enough is how the Dara Happans seem obsessed with presenting Yelm as a monogamous husband-pater familias, while we have a good deal of myths that either strongly imply, or outright state (albeit from Orlanthi sources) that he had a harem and many concubines, and may even have been properly married before being with Dendara. I think the whole "Yelm wouldn't be with [X] type of goddess" is a product of Dara Happan religious orthodoxy, and not really evident mythologically. Granted, that doesn't quite open the door for Dendara being a full-on Earth goddess, since ultimately this is a cult that needs to be accepted IN Dara Happan society, whatever kind of goddess she turns out to be.

This is a massive aside, but I honestly wish Yelm had been married to Ourania or something. The Day Sky being married to the Night Sky would have had a nice symmetry to it, plus stars are nice and could have captured a basic "motherhood" theme if so desired. A sort of Gloranthan Elbereth Gilthoniel, if you will.

Obviously, that's not what happened, so it's pointless to discuss, but it's been simmering in the back of my mind for a while, so I just wanted to put it out somewhere.

For a somewhat more tongue-in-cheek possibility, the inconsistencies around Arraz's geneaology are explicable if we assume he's a brother of Dayzatar and Lodril by marriage rather than by birth...

I think this distinction in Dara Happa probably dates to the Ten Tests. Murharzarm declares that the punishment for polygyny is to have multiple wives, which to me suggests a custom that is disfavored now but must be accounted for. And he says this to Lodril, a god of the previous generation or previous generation but one. Of course, it may have originally been a passing joke exalted as a bit of wisdom in the aftermath of the Flood...

[Qizilbashwoman]

38 minutes ago, Eff said:

For a somewhat more tongue-in-cheek possibility, the inconsistencies around Arraz's geneaology are explicable if we assume he's a brother of Dayzatar and Lodril by marriage rather than by birth...

Who is Yelm now? Arraz?

I know we've seen everyone from Dayzatar to Ourania as Yelm,* but I got lost at who is actually Yelm now. I think it's Arraz. Right?

*It was never Lodril, though

[Eff]

26 minutes ago, Qizilbashwoman said:

Who is Yelm now? Arraz?

I know we've seen everyone from Dayzatar to Ourania as Yelm,* but I got lost at who is actually Yelm now. I think it's Arraz. Right?

*It was never Lodril, though

Maybe? But I don't think so, given that Arraz has associations with martiality as "leader of the star captains" and Dara Happa in Time has a military record of, well... 

They won a lot of moral victories, at least!

Of course, I have no idea who's Yelm currently. Two silly suggestions: It's Antirius, the shattering of Yelm is a metaphor to describe the procession of Yelms, Plentonius even says that the Sun which rises at the Dawn is Antirius, it's been Antirius all the way through, or at least since the Sunstop when the Sun became weaker. Alternately, it's Elmal, the Guardian Sun of Six Ages, who really did become Yelm by defeating Valind's effort to usurp the Sunpath, and foisted his mortal people off on Kargzant and Yelmalio.

[Sir_Godspeed]

12 minutes ago, Eff said:

Two silly suggestions: It's Antirius

These aren't silly suggestions at all.

The current interpretation from Chaosium's side seems to be that Antirius, Kargzant, Lightfore, Elmal and Yelmalio are all variants of the "Cold Sun" archetype (Which overlaps to some degree with the Little Suns concept, though that is more wide-reaching as I understand it), that supplied light during the Storm Age, to a lesser degree during the Darkness, and the Dawn/Grey Age.

Basically, insofar as any "Cold Sun" became the Full Sun, they all did, but while also retaining their Cold Sun exploits as a separate divine entity (ie. Antirius and Yelmalio are still around and can be worshipped)
 

17 minutes ago, Eff said:

the shattering of Yelm is a metaphor to describe the procession of Yelms

It's not impossible, of course, but I think the shattering of Yelm as a metaphor for the disintegration of the Empire is perhaps more apt, although not all of the Soul Parts neatly map onto any constituent parts of the Empire. Vrimak can be seen as represnting Rinliddi, but what part of the Empire is Bijiif meant to symbolize/represent? Or Berneel Arashagern? Or Kazkurtum?

In addition to the portions as possible representations of the Empire's constituent parts, we have the problem that the portions of the Empire already have their respective "City Orbs", which are sometimes glossed as planets, and other times as sort of regional suns. Reladivus/Elmal for Nivorah, Shargash for Alkoth, Verithurusa/Lesilla for Mernita, etc., so it's a bit strange to double up on "regional patron deities".

Perhaps a better interpretation of the shattering of Yelm is as a chart for the breakdown of the complete "Sky" rune. That works well for the Warmth, Sight and Bird portions, and even arguably Shadow (as its antithesis), but Beast? Shape? Ehhh, there is something that doesn't quite fit here too. And there is no mention of a "Light" Portion (a common variant of the Sky Rune), although Antirius (a Cold Sun) is identified as the "Sight" Portion, so maybe Light and Sight are synonymous in this case. 

Anyway, by mentioning this I have inevitable caused us to spin down the long and frustrating spiral of Little Suns discussions, for which I am deeply sorry.

Speaking of the procession of Yelms:

Is this a case of identifying what god holds the overlordship of the Sky, or to identify which god is currently the big yellow ball in the sky? Are they always synonymous?

[Eff]

17 minutes ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

These aren't silly suggestions at all.

The current interpretation from Chaosium's side seems to be that Antirius, Kargzant, Lightfore, Elmal and Yelmalio are all variants of the "Cold Sun" archetype (Which overlaps to some degree with the Little Suns concept, though that is more wide-reaching as I understand it), that supplied light during the Storm Age, to a lesser degree during the Darkness, and the Dawn/Grey Age.

Basically, insofar as any "Cold Sun" became the Full Sun, they all did, but while also retaining their Cold Sun exploits as a separate divine entity (ie. Antirius and Yelmalio are still around and can be worshipped)
 

It's not impossible, of course, but I think the shattering of Yelm as a metaphor for the disintegration of the Empire is perhaps more apt, although not all of the Soul Parts neatly map onto any constituent parts of the Empire. Vrimak can be seen as represnting Rinliddi, but what part of the Empire is Bijiif meant to symbolize/represent? Or Berneel Arashagern? Or Kazkurtum?

In addition to the portions as possible representations of the Empire's constituent parts, we have the problem that the portions of the Empire already have their respective "City Orbs", which are sometimes glossed as planets, and other times as sort of regional suns. Reladivus/Elmal for Nivorah, Shargash for Alkoth, Verithurusa/Lesilla for Mernita, etc., so it's a bit strange to double up on "regional patron deities".

Perhaps a better interpretation of the shattering of Yelm is as a chart for the breakdown of the complete "Sky" rune. That works well for the Warmth, Sight and Bird portions, and even arguably Shadow (as its antithesis), but Beast? Shape? Ehhh, there is something that doesn't quite fit here too. And there is no mention of a "Light" Portion (a common variant of the Sky Rune), although Antirius (a Cold Sun) is identified as the "Sight" Portion, so maybe Light and Sight are synonymous in this case. 

Anyway, by mentioning this I have inevitable caused us to spin down the long and frustrating spiral of Little Suns discussions, for which I am deeply sorry.

Speaking of the procession of Yelms:

Is this a case of identifying what god holds the overlordship of the Sky, or to identify which god is currently the big yellow ball in the sky? Are they always synonymous?

Hmm. I have a theory that the Six Portions are representations of the elements, especially since Vrimak has an obvious association with Fire, Kazkurtum with Darkness (the reign of Kazkurtum is the period when no stars are visible in the sky anymore/the true stellar knowledge of Buserian is extinguished- Sheng's "Celestial" Empire presumably did the latter and thus earned him the sobriquet Kazkurtum after he was defeated), BernEel Arashagern a weaker one with Water, Bijiif possibly Earth? As Yelm's Shape? But Enverinus is also very obviously Fire and not Air... 

I developed this from thinking about why there are, in Lunar cosmology, six elements and seven souls, and then I realized that the Seventh Soul isn't revealed until after the First Battle of Chaos, so far as we're aware. So my thought became that the Sedenya Portion of the Lunar soul is your Chaos portion (or something like that), and then I realized that Antirius, as Yelm's Justice, would be a balancing force and the Moon rune is also called the Balance rune... 

So Antirius would be Yelm's Moon portion. Obviously, since Yelm is lord of the Sky, all of his portions are celestial in nature. This is definitely a very rough theory, I will admit!

Well, as for the procession of Yelms, two thoughts:

During the Storm Age and part of the Darkness, the overlord of the Sky appears to be Orlanth, having demonstrated mastery over at least two of the Cold Suns/Little Suns and being the god who destroys Tyram the Sky Tyrant where the surviving celestial gods are largely helpless. But this may be a relic of Orlanth having developed mastery over the Universe by that point. 

Does it have to be a big yellow ball? Should we classify the previous White Sun of the Green Age, prior to the rise of Brightface, as a previous Yelm? 

[Joerg]

 

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I have to echo that.

... Earth?

With the added. Three runes? With those runes she'd be identical to Ernalda in that regard.

Agreed, although I'd be dissatisfied with her bing earth even if the Earth goddesses hadn't rebelled and left.

Dendara is the sister of Oria, which gives her earth ancestry.

Much like Ernalda has been portrayed occasionally as the spiritual side of the earth, with Esrola as the physical aspects and Maran as the destructive ones. This Oria-Dendara relationship is similar, which makes the presentation of Dendara as an alternative to Ernalda in RQ3 somewhat sensible.

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Anyway, moving on.

That does seem likely I just wish the material was more clear on this because at a cursory glance and even at more than that I'm willing to bet almst any newcomer to the setting would believe Ernalda to be the universal goddess of all women.

The goddess of the Hearthfire is Mahome, a lowfire daughter of Lodril/Veskarthan, and in Thunder Rebels an adoptive subcult of Ernalda.

When it comes to Orlanthi, six out of seven women worship Ernalda. Among other Theyalan humans, that number may be lower, or even zero (e.g. the Ingareens).

Yelmalio is mostly an Orlanthi cult, and has been such since the Second Age (though maybe known by a different name). Their women may (6 out of 7 again) worship Ernalda or Dendara, depending on how Dara Happa-phile they are.

Full Lunars don't worship deities by gender. The non-Lunars in the empire and the provinces do, though. But then Pelorians sually (I guess another 6 out of 7) don't initiate to a single cult, but support their holy folk of acceptable cults as a mass of lay members, having the holy folk cast their blessings for them. Or they might initiate to Daka Fal. But their holy folk worship womens' deities like Oria, Dendara, Surensliba, Biselenslib, Thilla, Uleria, Naveria, ... and of course people worship the Lunar deities on the side without being initiated or illuminated, like the Emperor.

With the prevalence of the Seven Mothers in the provinces, I expect Lunarized Orlanthi to have less than six out of seven women worshiping Ernalda. Hon-eel is a good replacement in the maize-growing lands - both Lunar and Earth.

So yes, a vast majority of female initiates is initiated to the Cult of Ernalda. Pelorian deities have a lot less initiates, even though their lay membership may vastly outdo anything the Heortlings can muster. With the Malkioni west intersecting with the Theyalan furthest expansion, Ernalda is the go-to deity for female initiates, with land goddesses an alternative, or an alternative name for the same cult.

 

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Just as Orlanth and Yelm seem to have divided the title of unversal god of all men between them.

Orlanth and Lodril, rather, with local forms like Waha or Votank occasionally outdoing the big ones. The Bull god (when not being Orlanth) might rival Lodril in numbers of initiates.

The greatest number of Yelm worshipers is among the horse nomads. In Dara Happa and neighboring lands, only the nobility initates to Yelm.

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(I know the praxians have their own and for all apearances very local versions in Waha and Eiritha but their both lesser relatives to Orlanth and Ernalda respectively. Something I'm sure at least someone will dispute but that's how it looks.)

Eiritha is an excuse for a land goddess. Land goddesses are sometimes interpreted as Ernalda, sometimes as something separate. The God Learners dared to tamper with land goddesses, but they didn't mess with Ernalda.

The Sourcebook (p3, 6) gives Ernalda the lands of Maniria and Saird and Genert's Garden, plus all the drowned places towards the Spike. Ralia's land is separate, even though the Green Goddess of Ralios is Ernalda in all but name. Pelora is separate, too.

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What you wrote was quite interesting if not as useful for shedding light on the matter as I would have liked. Even if you say her elemental conection isn't dominant I'm having trouble imagining  Dendara as Storm aspected considering that runes temprament and the fact that she existed before it.

Thanks, and sorry for being not as enlightening. I dozed off before sending that...

Entekos as the goddess of measuredly moving or still Air in the center of the storm isn't that weird, is it? The contradiction is there, and it is known - Brastalos is another manifestation of the Eye of the Hurricane, and so is Molanni.

 

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While we're on the subject, what about Kralorela's Halisayan? She's given the same description (i.e. the good wife) and runes as Dendara in Guide to Glorantha.

Definitely on the level of "an aspect of" or "another mask of", with added Kralori baggage (different names for the emperor in Kralorela, draconic features, mysticism....)

One thing about Dendara in Dara Happa is that she is the cult for noblewomen, with other women left to Oria or some of the -eria goddesses.

 

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Also, something I should've asked earlier. Is Lodril literally the only god with the Heat rune?

None comes to mind that isn't another form or son of Lodril. At least not on the Surface World - if you wish to develop an underworld ecology, such deities are likely to crop up.

I haven't seen the runes of Togaro. The boiling ocean might have Heat, but then its main rune is Water.

The Brass Mostali handle Heat, not Light (although molten copper emits white glow, and molten bronze still a bright orange). They generate heat by flame or by magic.

Most deities with a heat characteristic haven't lost the light of the flame. When Fire is stolen, it is usually the full amount of fire.

 

There are only three deities who have Cold without Darkness - Himile, the origin of that power, Valind, his ally, and Inora, Himile's daughter by Kero Fin.

Shadow is a little more widespread - Argan Argar has it (and thus the Only Old One), his mother Xentha has it, and Moorgarki held onto it.

Light without Heat or Flame is fairly common among the lesser celestials.

I have speculated on Sea having two similar sub-forms, with Heler representing the salt-less variant of the isotonic water, and Nelat's brine the other, caustic end. Earth only has Dark Earth as its variety/internal antithesis. The Copper Sands or the Dead Place might represent the opposite.

Storm is too young to have differentiate thus, unless you want to philosophize on Still Air. Moon has phases and underwent a color cycle.

 

On the whole, I don't think that elemental sub-runes have much to say in terms of temperament and personality beyond those of the parent elements.

[scott-martin]

4 minutes ago, Joerg said:

The Sourcebook (p3, 6) gives Ernalda the lands of Maniria and Saird and Genert's Garden, plus all the drowned places towards the Spike. Ralia's land is separate, even though the Green Goddess of Ralios is Ernalda in all but name. Pelora is separate, too.

I'd like to lobby anew for primordial Jrustela as the historical Spike. When self-identified Ernaldists from Slontos came to that land, mythically it was like they were coming home. Or if a little more finesse is required, it was like they were closing the gap created when mythic Ernaldela drowned, leaving us with a people in search of a land and a land devoid of human people. 

11 minutes ago, Joerg said:

Thanks, and sorry for being not as enlightening. I dozed off before sending that...

I didn't notice any drag on coherence but the scheduling did seem oddly "stone age sleep cycle" for you. Hope all is well.

In general I think elemental sub runes are artifacts of the initial isolation of each elemental process. When a community was composed of fire people, fine distinctions (the "narcissism of small differences") were how we could tell each other apart: one person was bright but cold, another hot but dim, a third in the happy sweet spot at the center of our society blessed with both qualities in abundance. Then as people get pushed to the margins or come in, we encounter true difference and develop a sense of other elements, at which point the sub runes fade from prominence.

This is especially important within time as "pantheons" are constructed from historically separated components. I was just looking at how the ouori (and by implication, the waertagi) don't start out acknowledging Magasta (Water Of Water) but instead have a Valind analogue (maybe Cold of Air depending on how you split the hair) in that role. But as the pieces are introduced back to one another we get these irregularities where people insist on statements like "Yelmalio is not a Fire god" or "Argan Argar is not a Dark god, totally different thing."

In childhood I thought that since Sea is always doubled (two wavy lines) it contains its own segmentation. Water is its own cycle. However this is a little esoteric.

I forget, do people break down Ca-ladra as Ca-lodra? The prefix may be some kind of honorific or other qualifier as we approach primordial Lodrilela, which may not have been in the north at all, really.

[Qizilbashwoman]

7 minutes ago, scott-martin said:

Lodrilela

when a Gloranthan word ends in a resonant (r, l) the locative ending -ela > ia

It's Lodrilia, not *Lodrilela

- your friendly neighborhood linguist

[scott-martin]

Just now, Qizilbashwoman said:

It's Lodrilia, not *Lodrilela

 Slontan context, Slontan forms: Lodrilela, Ernaldela. 

But given present company, it's also worth noting that some texts hint at what to us would have been impossible cultural transmission across "north and south" Lodril/Oria zones before the mountains made it complicated.

[Qizilbashwoman]

2 minutes ago, scott-martin said:

 Slontan context, Slontan forms: Lodrilela, Ernaldela. 

But given present company, it's also worth noting that some texts hint at what to us would have been impossible cultural transmission across "north and south" Lodril/Oria zones before the mountains made it complicated.

Where does Lodrilela appear in a text? This is a strange form and breaks Greg's apparent self-formed rule about names

[scott-martin]

2 minutes ago, Qizilbashwoman said:

Where does Lodrilela appear in a text? This is a strange form and breaks Greg's apparent self-formed rule about names

Don't blame me or Greg's vagaries, blame Slontos. And also the Guide.

[Qizilbashwoman]

3 minutes ago, scott-martin said:

Don't blame me or Greg's vagaries, blame Slontos. And also the Guide.

it refers to the Artmali Kingdom, interesting

[Joerg]

4 hours ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

I'd argue that the wetlands around Alkoth did not yet exist when he was a swidden god.

But then, it doesn't appear like agriculture existed in Dara Happa prior to the coming of the Oslir as a consequence (among others) of Umath pushing his parents apart, lifting off the sky dome while pushing the earth cube into the sea.

4 hours ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

Isn't his role in this myth that he fails and then Murharzarm has to step in with water management?

HIs failure using military force is probably a case of "even Worf was beaten", but his wetlands marriage gives him that role afterwards.

 

4 hours ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

Unless Shadzor is just a Theyelan mispronounciation of Shargash.

The Theyalan pronunciation for Shargash is "Jagrekriand". (Much like that of Lodril is "Veskarthan".) The first time I saw the name "Jagrekriad" was in King of Sartar.

4 hours ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

Although I'd agree that whatever happened f**** him up. If we want to call that traumatized side "Shadzor", that's fine.

If his demons are the Shadzorings, then Shadzor would be the name of the lord of those demons.

Alkor may have undergone a quite traumatic experience, possibly a sexual one with him in the non-male role. Or he may have been flensed, and only received his red skin from that trauma.

 

4 hours ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

Well, that's what the Orlanthi would say. I'm not so sure the Praxians see it like that, even if they arguably have assimilated some Orlanthi mythology.

Eiritha is not your usual "favorite crop" land goddess as those goddesses mentioned in the Sourcebook (p.3 - Seshna, Frona, Ralia, Pelora, Teshna, Kralora). Genert's Garden appears to be Ernalda's body, much like Saird and Maniria. (No idea wheree that leaves Balazar and the Elder Wilds, though.) Her Earth Rites are kin to those of Ernalda and grant some mutual access.

Eiritha has Hykim/Mikyh as one parent, and Genert/Ernalda as the other. Pick your couple.

 

 

The majority of the Beast Riders trace their founders as sons of the Storm Bull and Eiritha. This doesn't make them storm people any more than the Malkioni (after all, Malkion is the son of Aerlit, a storm god, too.)

4 hours ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

Again, as RW players and readers we are subconsciously influenced by the fact that the material we read - and which appears to us as the kind of "omniscient narrator"-style information that you'd find in a D&D Gods manual or something - is actually pseudo-in-universe texts, to a large degree based on God Learners research into divine/runic relations by way of studying mostly Orlanthi peoples. And that's not even taking into account how a lot of those God Learner texts have in turn been edited and "made safe" by Orlanthi scholars later.

The Orlanthi peoples are the product of the Theyalan salvage of myths from the patchwork that Arachne Solara's Web had created as the World of Time. The Lightbringer missionaries went out not just to instrluct the other survivors of the Greater Darkness in how they could contact the gods within Time, but also to collect those fragments of stories that their own ancestors had forgotten, patching together pieces that looked sufficiently as a fit. The Theyalan magic (aka rune magic) then reinforced those patchwork stories as the main way the Middle World interfaced with the Hero Planes, and established the consensus for that place. The Jrusteli myth researchers stole those methods and consensus, and then applied their Logic to the Theyalan patchwork, giving it a sequence that the original Theyalan patchwork may have lacked.

[scott-martin]

1 minute ago, Qizilbashwoman said:

it refers to the Artmali Kingdom, interesting

The world was smaller before so many mountains and oceans!

Away from the deep sources right now but Lodrilela has been in the air for at least a quarter century now. Here's the trickster a couple decades back.

[Qizilbashwoman]

1 minute ago, scott-martin said:

The world was smaller before so many mountains and oceans!

literally the world was significantly larger, but there were fewer mountains and zero oceans, and also a lot of happy people interested in exploring. Even the Vadeli weren't monsters yet.

[scott-martin]

Just now, Qizilbashwoman said:

literally the world was significantly larger, but there were fewer mountains and zero oceans, and also a lot of happy people interested in exploring. Even the Vadeli weren't monsters yet.

"That's about the size, where you put your eyes." Anything that explains why the oldest Brithini are so little works for me.

[Joerg]

Caladra may be Ga-Lodril.

Lodril is known in the west as Ladaral (or "Laddie"). "a" to "o" is certainly within the range of normal dialect changes in British English.

(And George Bernard Shaw said what there is to be said about phonetics in the English language...)

[scott-martin]

22 minutes ago, Joerg said:

Caladra may be Ga-Lodril.

Oh yeah, you were mining that seam in the [mumble] decade. I knew there had to be prior art. Loved it then, worth taking another swing now. But in terms of where Heat (Without Light) Rune comes from, that would be the place. 

In terms of the theogony Heat would naturally be where Sky starts to divide from the endless Earths before it. Ga-Lo may be the place.

[Qizilbashwoman]

9 minutes ago, scott-martin said:

Oh yeah, you were mining that seam in the [mumble] decade. I knew there had to be prior art. Loved it then, worth taking another swing now. But in terms of where Heat (Without Light) Rune comes from, that would be the place. 

In terms of the theogony Heat would naturally be where Sky starts to divide from the endless Earths before it. Ga-Lo may be the place.

There's also Darkness without Cold in Pamaltela, the rune of the Muri (sweaty trolls) via their patron mother god, Moorgarki. I believe hoon do as well, being degenerate Muri without the Person rune.

(There are "normal" uz in select parts of Pamaltela, having arrived in by boat in rather recent times, as well romal basically everywhere in very small numbers, who probably due to their Chaos-corrupted constitutions seem to handle the heat better.)

[scott-martin]

31 minutes ago, Qizilbashwoman said:

There's also Darkness without Cold in Pamaltela, the rune of the Muri (sweaty trolls) via their patron mother god, Moorgarki. I believe hoon do as well, being degenerate Muri without the Person rune.

Love it. Looking back Moori's people have always had an oddly euphemistic relationship to the Spear. I might even try to find them the apparently paradoxical Heat (Fire Minus Light) and Shade (Dark Minus Cold).  While I don't want to embarrass more conventional uz perspectives by stepping on their mysteries, I've always suspected this is Very Important in the search for Pamalt and why the southern corner really diverges. 

Also anything with troll boats is excellent. 

Edited November 20, 2019 by scott-martin
stray pronoun

[alakoring]

On 11/19/2019 at 6:16 AM, Eff said:

Six Ages slightly implies Shargash is a Light deity

Must be pretty slight, I don’t recall that.

My personal suspicion is that Shargash did indeed have a slash & burn aspect (i.e. fertility through fire) but this is no longer worshiped in Dara Happa due to the rise of cities.