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Sir_Godspeed

Rye and/or Oats as staple crops?

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Disclaimer: this thread is not sponsored by Big Rye or the Illuminoati, but I come from an area where both have traditionally been used quite extensively for people as well as animals.

We know that the most mentioned staple crop of the Orlanthi is barley. The same is true for most of upland Peloria, with indeed the region possibly being named for barley itself (Pela, Pelora both being associated with barley, apparently).

In lowland Peloria, and afaik Esrola, as well as riverine Seshnela, we find much use of rice as the staple crop.

Wheat is probably in there somewhere too, but I forget where exactly. @Jeff recently mentioned that a variant of einkorn wheat is used around Wintertop because it is more cold resistant than other crops. Cool!

My question here is fairly simple: do we know of any areas or cultures where either rye or oats are used as staple crops?

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I don't think there are any places where it's definite that rye and/or oats are used as primary crops, but rye and oats are both known in Pelanda, and I have a speculative construction of a three-tiered Pelorian agriculture with the rye/barley/oats (and possibly millet?) complex in the hills, wheat (as Pelora is the goddess of wheat to the Esrolians, which certainly suggests a connection with Peloria) in the flat country, and rice (domesticated wild rice rather than Oryza sativa, or maybe sativa is the third variety) in the river valleys, marshes, and floodplains. The hills would now to a certain extent be fortified with maize. 

Rye and oats are also both cultivated in Esrolia, oats are definitely cultivated in Maniria.

Using RW analogies, perhaps Fronela cultivates rye and oats as their predominant crops, seeing as rye is the major staple grain in the cooler parts of Eastern Europe? 

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28 minutes ago, Eff said:

(as Pelora is the goddess of wheat to the Esrolians, which certainly suggests a connection with Peloria)

I appear to have been momentarily bamboozled by the wiki, which cites Pela and Pelora as associated with rye *and* wheat on each crop's respective page (albeit for Orlanthi and Dara Happans, once again respectively). Peloria would accurately be Wheatland than Barleyland, I agree.

Esra is the most common barley goddess for the Orlanthi, I recognize in hindsight.

(Not that this matters hugely to the topic at hand - deific associations with crops is likely to be mutable. Also I realize someone will pillory me of mixing together Pela and Pelora).

Edited by Sir_Godspeed
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23 minutes ago, Eff said:

Rye and oats are also both cultivated in Esrolia, oats are definitely cultivated in Maniria.

Using RW analogies, perhaps Fronela cultivates rye and oats as their predominant crops, seeing as rye is the major staple grain in the cooler parts of Eastern Europe?

I like the Fronelan connection to rye.

As for oats: it does seem to be associated with pigs in Glorantha, which fits well with Maniria (proper), and also parts of Fronela.

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3 minutes ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

I appear to have been momentarily bamboozled by the wiki, which cites Pela and Pelora as associated with rye *and* wheat* on each crop's respective page (albeit for Orlanthi and Dara Happans, once again respectively.)

Ersa is the most common barley goddess for the Orlanthi, I recognize in hindsight.

(Not that this matters hugely to the topic at hand - deific associations with crops is likely to be mutable. Also I realize someone will pillory me of mixing together Pela and Pelora).

And then you add Pella to the mix... 

Perhaps there's room to write a myth here. "How Orendara Sorted Out The Grain Sisters"? 

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1 minute ago, Eff said:

Perhaps there's room to write a myth here. "How Orendara Sorted Out The Grain Sisters"? 

"Sorted out" brings me associations of roughing them up, which I have to admit I find a bit funny. Then again, grains are roughed up so maybe it's mythically appropriate.

"C'mere, wise guy, eh?"

I do have a proposition though: We know that Esrolia is sometimes glossed as "Grainland" in English, so instead of taking the "Esra" -> "Esrola" -> "Esrolia" to literally mean "Barleyland", it's perhaps better to think of Esrola's name as "Grain-woman/goddess/mother", or "She-of-the-Grain" ("Grainess").

It's similar to how Americans refer to maize as "corn", where "corn" is used in several European language to whatever local grain is the most common, or indeed to grain in general (as it does in my native Norwegian).

Long story short, this means that - arguably - to its native populations, both Peloria and Esrolia can both be glossed as "Grainland", although they take different grain-goddesses/grain-root-words as the origin of that word-forming.

Obviously, just how much this is Theyalan or God-Learner imposition versus native usage is hard to say, partially because linguistics isn't Glorantha's main focus.

Other regions do not seem to have followed this crop-nymous system, or if they did, the connection is obscure to me, and perhaps largely irrelevant until we get more insight into the regional diversity of myth, agriculture and all that good stuff.

@Eff - I am all out of likes for today, so you'll have to just imagine the sweet "blop" of a like-notification.

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1 hour ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

rye

I liked Joerg's insight back in the Loren Miller days (!) that rye might be a Dark grain and so might have been prevalent across the Stygian Empire before all their works were literally plowed under. In that model it might not dominate anywhere today (obsolete) but you would find a few stands of it in miserable plots everywhere people are poor, much as you have families who drop below the mainstream subsistence diet. The logical thing would be to hunt "black bread" survivals, entheogenic or otherwise. Probably the simplest way to do this is a Black Elf census. 

I wonder whether Genert favored rye or maize or both in their season, a mystery behind II.23 / III.21. For that matter, what's people's take on III.21? 

Fronela after the Thaw might be a recombinant laboratory of reintroduced ancestral crops and even new ones. If I ever get the chance I want to talk to Frona about it, speaking of sorting (winnowing) out the sisters and Zoria prophecies.

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56 minutes ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

I appear to have been momentarily bamboozled by the wiki, which cites Pela and Pelora as associated with rye *and* wheat on each crop's respective page (albeit for Orlanthi and Dara Happans, once again respectively). Peloria would accurately be Wheatland than Barleyland, I agree.

Esra is the most common barley goddess for the Orlanthi, I recognize in hindsight.

(Not that this matters hugely to the topic at hand - deific associations with crops is likely to be mutable. Also I realize someone will pillory me of mixing together Pela and Pelora).

Never trust the Glorantha wiki, anymore then Wikipedia. Let's thank Claudia Loroff's Bronze Age and Neolithic cooking project for a dramatic increase in our knowledge of the grain goddesses of Genertela.

The various grain goddesses are as listed below. Now that doesn't mean those are the only cereals grown in those areas, but that goddess has a special affinity with that grain and that grain does end up being prevalent there.

GENERTELAN GRAIN GODDESSES

                LAND                GODDESS       MAIN CEREAL

                Fronela             Frona                Rye

                Kralorela          Kralora*           Rice

                Maniria**        Esrola               Einkorn Wheat

                Dragon Pass   Kero Fin           Emmer Wheat

                Peloria              Pelora               Barley

                                           Everina             Brown Rice

                                           Hon-eel             Maize

                Ralios                Ralia                  Spelt Wheat

                Seshnela          Seshna             Oat

                Slontos             Slonta               Millet

                Teshnos           Teshna             Black Rice

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Many thanks @Jeff! I'm pleasantly surprised to see @Eff's rye hypothesis confirmed.

On the other hand, seeing the wheat-barley dichotomy switched up. Apparently the Orlanthi are big on wheat, now, while the (upland) Pelorians are more into barley.

It does fit with what we know of how Peloria & Dara Happa mostly being into beer, while Kethaela (and by extension parts of Dragon Pass) being wine country, but still, it's a bit of a surprise.

Obviously, as you said, there's a mix of grains here, based on local traditions, climate & terrain, but still, this'll need some time to sink in for me. :P

Oh, and oats in Seshnela is a surprise too. Guess they're big porridge eaters over there.

Edited by Sir_Godspeed
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2 minutes ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

On the other hand, seeing the wheat-barley dichotomy switched up. Apparently the Orlanthi are big on wheat, now, while the (upland) Pelorians are more into barley.

What we have here is an early rumble of the Heroine Wars. Mass crop collapse, mass seed stock depletion, mass migration, desperation is the mother of agricultural innovation.

New foods. Foreign foods. The goddesses rotate. Everyone wants the best partner before the dance stops.

Some say all of this has happened before. Talk to every goddess. See what she wants NOW. It might be very different from what she said in 1616 or even 1620.

Opportunity awaits!

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Well Greg never had his wife spend a year playing around with various ancient grains, seeing how they cooked, and where they can be grown. We've also learned that the Orlanthi make flat bread and sour dough bread, yeast water is a big deal, and quite a lot more. 

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1 hour ago, Eff said:

And then you add Pella to the mix... 

Perhaps there's room to write a myth here. "How Orendara Sorted Out The Grain Sisters"? 

The Grain Goddesses or more correctly Land Goddesses (the big names in the Sourcebook) each have their favorite grain, but support pretty much the whole range of cereals suitable for the temperatures. They may have a special birth myth in which their seed in the primal earth develops that way.

 

Cereal grasses are wind-fertilized plants, which points to a greater role of Orlanth (or Umath before him) in making them commonly cultivated than one might otherwise imply.

Both barley and rye have the "haired" fruit stands which make the effect of wind going through a field even more striking, which might be a reason why the Orlanthi like barley so much.

I always associated wheat with solar pantheon farmers, but if you look at Glorantha, solar cultures and rice farming go hand in hand.

1 hour ago, scott-martin said:

I liked Joerg's insight back in the Loren Miller days (!)

Objection: the Henk Langeveld days... Loren was discussing his then fledgeling Carmania campaign:

https://glorantha.steff.in/digests/HenkDaily/v940212p1

wherein I argue for rye rather than oats that RQ3 Gods of Glorantha suggested for Fronela. But yes, there are a number of Darkness aspects to rye, including ergot and the color of the bread you back from it. (Also the color your oven takes on when you bake rye bread... something evaporates from yeast dough and creates a hard layer of soot everywhere.

 

But, to address the original post:

2 hours ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

Disclaimer: this thread is not sponsored by Big Rye or the Illuminoati, but I come from an area where both have traditionally been used quite extensively for people as well as animals.

We know that the most mentioned staple crop of the Orlanthi is barley. The same is true for most of upland Peloria, with indeed the region possibly being named for barley itself (Pela, Pelora both being associated with barley, apparently).

Pela is the wheat goddess, Esra is the goddess of barley. Thunder Rebel names Suchara the rye mother and Usara the oats mother.

The latter two don't get much coverage. Dragon Pass: Land of Thunder introduces Suchara Vale, adjacent to Shadow Plateau just upriver from Karse. (Another place associated with darkness...)

 

Quote

In lowland Peloria, and afaik Esrola, as well as riverine Seshnela, we find much use of rice as the staple crop.

Wetland Ralios and Tanisor... western coastal Old Seshnela probably never was much of a rice land, and neither does Arolanit look like rice-growing territory.

 

Jeff's new table of grains and associated goddesses re-writes older sources once again. 

Pelora as barley goddess does make sense ecologically (short hot summers), but I wouldn't have expected barley as the main crop of Lodrili dry farmers. I have no objection at all for barley as the main crop for Saird, btw.

 

I was curious about brown and black rice, so I asked Wikipedia. In the real world, brown (or red, or black) rice is the rice grain with the inner peel still intact, whereas in white rice that peel is removed in preparation. (Some sort of threshing or light milling, I assume.)

1 minute ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

On the other hand, seeing the wheat-barley dichotomy switched up. Apparently the Orlanthi are big on wheat, now, while the (upland) Pelorians are more into barley.

To be honest, I have always seen Esrolia as an exporter of wheat, despite the name "Esra" associated with Barley in Heortling mythology, and barley being the preferred grain in King of Dragon Pass (especially the early PC/Mac version which asked the player to adjust the grain balance for the agricultural year).

RQG confirms that flax is a major crop in southern central Genertela, too, with all its linothorax armor. Probably some for the fibre, the other part for the linseed oil (or the whole seeds as food additive).

 

1 minute ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

It does fit with what we know of how Peloria & Dara Happa mostly being into beer, while Kethaela (and by extension parts of Dragon Pass) being wine country, but still, it's a bit of a surprise.

I haven't heard about oats beer yet (let alone drunk any - at least knowingly), but wherever grain is cultivated, beer (in the wider sense, not necessarily the Bavarian Purity Law sense) will be brewed.

 

1 minute ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

Obviously, as you said, there's a mix of grains here, based on local traditions, climate & terrain, but still, this'll need some time to sink in for me. :P

There are the options for winter grain (sowed in late Earth Season or even early Dark Season) and harvested earlier in the year, or summer grain (sowed at the onset of thawing, Storm or more usually Sea Season).

 

I miss millet and buckwheat as cereals (or pseudo-cereals) in these lists.

 

1 minute ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

Oh, and oats in Seshnela is a surprise too. Guess they're big porridge eaters over there.

Oats has always had this "now where do we put this odd cereal?" feeling to me.

Porridges (of various cerials or pseudo-cerials) are the natural way of preparing grass seeds for human consumption. It is the kind of meal you can produce in a clay cooking vessel situated on the edge of the hearthfire for about a day.

 

On the whole, I wouldn't expect the various exile groups from Brithos to vary greatly in the grains they cultivated on the western shores of Genertela or their home island. We know that the Brithos agriculture was continued throughout the time the glacier encroached their island, and we know that Arolanit has copied the Brithos way of life painstakingly, and the Sog City colony is little (if any) better.

 

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25 minutes ago, Joerg said:

the various exile groups from Brithos

I'm not sure I've ever seen a satisfactory answer to the question of what we farmed when we all lived on the island and my own memory is hazy. Mongoose was the only setting that needed to know and they gave her "wheat" to share with Jrusta (undoubtedly an import) and the more challenging Pelora [sic]. As noted up thread, Greg didn't really care so I think the Archaic Sources at best have "[green acres here]" in the spaces the Seattle Farmers Collective have since opened up.

Either way, whatever it started out as it's probably ghastly factory gluten there now, those poor people doomed to live forever on that tapped-out crop. The only really robust seeds to survive are here on the mainland of history.

Speaking of Jrusta and the ghost of "wild grain goddesses" from the digest days it's interesting to play with the notion that some crops are in search of domestication and some goddesses may be in search of better crops. Keep it dancing.

Edited by scott-martin
crops without a farm, a farm without a crop!
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Something that does intrigue me a bit is that starchy roots don't seem to have much of a presence in Glorantha as things currently stand. Manioc/cassava, taro, yams, sweet potatoes, and of course regular potatoes. Where might they be grown?

Of course, given that maize was a lost God Time crop until Hon-Eel reintroduced it together with the proper rituals for cultivating it, perhaps potatoes (sweet and white) and manioc are also lost God Time crops, only awaiting some dedicated Heroquester to discover their secrets. And African/Oceanian crops have places where they would be likely to be cultivated in Pamaltela and the East Isles. 

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6 minutes ago, Eff said:

Something that does intrigue me a bit is that starchy roots don't seem to have much of a presence in Glorantha as things currently stand. Manioc/cassava, taro, yams, sweet potatoes, and of course regular potatoes. Where might they be grown?

Of course, given that maize was a lost God Time crop until Hon-Eel reintroduced it together with the proper rituals for cultivating it, perhaps potatoes (sweet and white) and manioc are also lost God Time crops, only awaiting some dedicated Heroquester to discover their secrets. And African/Oceanian crops have places where they would be likely to be cultivated in Pamaltela and the East Isles. 

Potatoes are not known in Genertela.

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3 hours ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

I appear to have been momentarily bamboozled by the wiki, which cites Pela and Pelora as associated with rye *and* wheat on each crop's respective page (albeit for Orlanthi and Dara Happans, once again respectively). Peloria would accurately be Wheatland than Barleyland, I agree.

It's the unfortunate issue of the wiki not noting references for each detail, and a lot of those sources no longer being accurate. 

Of course, even if they are still accurate, that doesn't mean they'll be in agreement with each other. 

For instance the Glorantha Sourcebook lists Esra as barley associated (page 92) and mentions Esrola as wheat or barley depending on if you're in Esrolia or Dragon Pass (90). 

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4 hours ago, Joerg said:

Cereal grasses are wind-fertilized plants, which points to a greater role of Orlanth (or Umath before him) in making them commonly cultivated than one might otherwise imply.

Good point! This points to something deeper.

I was first going to suggest that in Glorantha, flowers evolved before wind-pollination, but then the existance of bees being predicated on the emergence of Darkness Folk (including Gorakiki's broods) after the death of Yelm somewhat put that to rest. HOWEVER - what if the ORIGINAL pollinators of Flamal Earth-Husband's many children were Celestials? Colibris come to mind.

Then WHHOOOSH comes Umath. He gives rise to a new form of plant reproduction. Something more simple, but sturdy, hardy, much like Storm itself.

Asrelia waves her (then) golden hair, and catches the errant breeze's attention. The rest is mythology.

4 hours ago, Joerg said:

Porridges (of various cerials or pseudo-cerials) are the natural way of preparing grass seeds for human consumption. It is the kind of meal you can produce in a clay cooking vessel situated on the edge of the hearthfire for about a day.

 

Not only that, but beside water-porridge (undoubtedly very common in itself), the highly nutritious milk-porridge is after all the food of a pastoral culture.

Grain and milk. Wind (see above point) and cows. 

That's the emergence of Storm Folk there.
 

3 hours ago, Eff said:

Something that does intrigue me a bit is that starchy roots don't seem to have much of a presence in Glorantha as things currently stand. Manioc/cassava, taro, yams, sweet potatoes, and of course regular potatoes. Where might they be grown?

Of course, given that maize was a lost God Time crop until Hon-Eel reintroduced it together with the proper rituals for cultivating it, perhaps potatoes (sweet and white) and manioc are also lost God Time crops, only awaiting some dedicated Heroquester to discover their secrets. And African/Oceanian crops have places where they would be likely to be cultivated in Pamaltela and the East Isles. 

I could swear Taro was mentioned somewhere in Revealed Mythologies, but I was wrong.

Yam (assuming real yam (Dioscorea) and not American "yam" (sweet potato - ipomoaea batatas)) and "Headfruit" ("Buddha's Head Fruit"?, aka. Custard Apple, or its proper origin name "Cherimoya") are described for the Vaybeti people, as well as sugarcane and tobacco. The issue is that these folks disappear sometime during the Gods War. I would guess that their crops stick around though, since they were "introduced" to the Vaybeti, not created locally.

I do miss my friend potato though. As well as turnips, radishes, etc., unless these latters implicitly exist.

We do know that the Orlanthi cultivate varieties of cabbage, though, iirc, which might include some root-based cultivars (some kind of prehistoric rutabaga/swede, although the RW version wasn't around until the late middle ages - I *think*.)

Edited by Sir_Godspeed

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4 hours ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

I do miss my friend potato though.

I have boldly assumed that the Red Moon brought the New World crops, not just maize. So now you have potato.

Historically, maize spread first. It reached the uplands of China so fast we don't even really know how it got there exactly. People think potato was the revolution but honestly maize conquered the most distant reaches of the world by like 1500ish. The Hmong were growing it deep in the mountainous regions of southern China, northern Vietnam and Thailand-Laos-Burma some fifty years after Columbus.

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6 minutes ago, Qizilbashwoman said:

I have boldly assumed that the Red Moon brought the New World crops, not just maize. So now you have potato.

Historically, maize spread first. It reached the uplands of China so fast we don't even really know how it got there exactly. People think potato was the revolution but honestly maize conquered the most distant reaches of the world by like 1500ish. The Hmong were growing it deep in the mountainous regions of southern China, northern Vietnam and Thailand-Laos-Burma some fifty years after Columbus.

I briefly mused at one point (when considering a Reddit topic on possible Incan/Andean-aesthetic areas in Glorantha) that the pre-EWF Kingdom of Orlanthland might well have the kind of high-altitude terraced farms and carved-staircases-and-rope-bridges roads you'd associate with the Inca, or would if you're me, at least. And then I pondered whether potatoes are a Draconic secret- Dragonewts don't seem to plant seeds because all their crops are hidden underground! Of course, when they decided to wind up the EWF, the Minarian Memory Removal was therefore done to remove all memory of fried potatoes from human minds...

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9 hours ago, Jeff said:

Never trust the Glorantha wiki, anymore then Wikipedia. Let's thank Claudia Loroff's Bronze Age and Neolithic cooking project for a dramatic increase in our knowledge of the grain goddesses of Genertela.

The various grain goddesses are as listed below. Now that doesn't mean those are the only cereals grown in those areas, but that goddess has a special affinity with that grain and that grain does end up being prevalent there.

GENERTELAN GRAIN GODDESSES

                LAND                GODDESS       MAIN CEREAL

                Fronela             Frona                Rye

                Kralorela          Kralora*           Rice

                Maniria**        Esrola               Einkorn Wheat

                Dragon Pass   Kero Fin           Emmer Wheat

                Peloria              Pelora               Barley

                                           Everina             Brown Rice

                                           Hon-eel             Maize

                Ralios                Ralia                  Spelt Wheat

                Seshnela          Seshna             Oat

                Slontos             Slonta               Millet

                Teshnos           Teshna             Black Rice

Isn't rice and brown rice the same thing?  (Whether the rice is polished or not)

Or does it show the difference between Indica rice and Japonica rice?  (Though I had heard Greg said “no” in his visit Japan)

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8 minutes ago, mallion said:

Isn't rice and brown rice the same thing?  (Whether the rice is polished or not)

Or does it show the difference between Indica rice and Japonica rice?

Might this be wild rice like found in Minnesota, Manitoba or Ontario natively?

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1 hour ago, Bill the barbarian said:

Might this be wild rice like found in Minnesota, Manitoba or Ontario natively?

Manoomin, Latin name Zizania: it's a somewhat distant cousin of O. sativa. The name comes from Ojibwe and means "harvested grain" (min refers to berries or grains). Manoomin is super good for you in terms of vitamins and other nutritional content: no beriberi risk here!

image.thumb.png.105c9be50e4713d9fbd21834f961697b.png

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9 hours ago, Eff said:

Something that does intrigue me a bit is that starchy roots don't seem to have much of a presence in Glorantha as things currently stand. Manioc/cassava, taro, yams, sweet potatoes, and of course regular potatoes. Where might they be grown?

If potatoes are unknown in Genertela, they are unknown/not dominantly cultivated wherever the Middle Sea Empire sailed or rode. That might leave Maslo/Thinobutu or the farther East Isles. The same is likely to be said for sweet potatoes. But then, potatoes are highland plants, whereas yams and sweet potatoes are lowland jungle environment crops.

Manioc/cassava and yams sound like crops you can find under a jungle canopy, which makes Elamle-ata a place to look, or Fethlon in Teshnnos and Kralorela, or Teleos. I'd look out for sago palms in such environment, too.

I wonder how much temperate root vegetables are absent. Beet roots and carrots are mentioned in Pelorian context. Radishes are likely, too.

 

There is an alternative explanation for the absence of potatoes - the great potato blight that erupted when the trolls brought all their bugs and fungi from Hell. 

 

Quote

Of course, given that maize was a lost God Time crop until Hon-Eel reintroduced it together with the proper rituals for cultivating it, perhaps potatoes (sweet and white) and manioc are also lost God Time crops, only awaiting some dedicated Heroquester to discover their secrets. And African/Oceanian crops have places where they would be likely to be cultivated in Pamaltela and the East Isles. 

There ought to be something like Teff somewhere, maybe as a crop of the Blue Moon.

 

6 hours ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

I was first going to suggest that in Glorantha, flowers evolved before wind-pollination, but then the existance of bees being predicated on the emergence of Darkness Folk (including Gorakiki's broods) after the death of Yelm somewhat put that to rest. HOWEVER - what if the ORIGINAL pollinators of Flamal Earth-Husband's many children were Celestials? Colibris come to mind.

There is an entire class of hymenoptera that emerged on the surface in the Green Age - the sprites. But yes, hummingbirds are way more frequent in Glorantha than in the ancient world. Esrolia has them, for instance.

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4 minutes ago, Qizilbashwoman said:

Manoomin, Latin name Zizania: it's a somewhat distant cousin of O. sativa. The name comes from Ojibwe and means "harvested grain" (min refers to berries or grains). Manoomin is super good for you in terms of vitamins and other nutritional content: no beriberi risk here!

yah, what I said, wild rice

Quote

Wild rice are four species of grasses forming the genus Zizania, and the grain that can be harvested from them. The grain was historically gathered and eaten in North America and China. While now a delicacy in North America, the grain is eaten less in China, where the plant's stem is used as a vegetable.

 

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3 minutes ago, Joerg said:

I wonder how much temperate root vegetables are absent. Beet roots and carrots are mentioned in Pelorian context. Radishes are likely, too.

One of the most deeply misleading things about Peloria is that it looks like Mesopotamia but honestly it's basically Russia in climate, complete with reindeer herding shamanic peoples right in the northern bits

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