Can spirits in general receive POW sacrifice?

[Akhôrahil]

There are several types of spirits that can receive POW sacrifices (wyters, spirit cult spirits, ancestors if going by older rules...), but is it a general effect that all spirits can? 

Asking for two reasons:

1. It makes an interesting way for interacting with spirits - magic points are cheap, but POW, that counts!
2. It's beautifully abusable with Allied Spirits (to the point where it probably shouldn't be allowed even if the general case holds true).

Edited February 19, 2020 by Akhôrahil

[Austin]

1 hour ago, Akhôrahil said:

There are several types of spirits that can receive POW sacrifices (wyters, spirit cult spirits, ancestors if going by older rules...), but is it a general effect that all spirits can?

I assume all spirits in the Spirit World can, due to the Pact rules for shamans (p.358-359).

This can probably be logically extended to include all spirits, period. But restricting it to Spirit World ameliorates your noted allied spirit cheese. And I'd tell my whining players that worship situations (wyters, spirit cults, etc.) count as special exceptions. Or bring the Spirit World into the Middle World. Or something like that.

[scott-martin]

1 hour ago, Akhôrahil said:

• It makes an interesting way for interacting with spirits - magic points are cheap, but POW, that counts!

IMG every spirit is hungry. Few ever get anything more than the occasional MP and don't have much to offer that's worth anything more so a gift of real POW would be extravagant . . . unless for some reason you are grooming this particular spirit with a specific magical goal in mind.

I like Crel's note about worship situations . . . feeding an allied spirit on your own POW feels like idolatry or some other sin. Maybe all orthodox allied spirits (YGWV whether any of them can be otherwise) will simply accept your gift and pass it right back up to the big boss, evading potential abuse and helpfully making sure you aren't breaching your deal with god.

[French Desperate WindChild]

that is not the question but sacrificing 1 POW to a spirit does'nt mean the spirit gains 1 POW automatically

that's not the same mechanic than shaman rules.

you can read in the wyter rules differents limitations : the max POW depends on the community size. In this way (and I m not sure wyter rules is adapted to other spirit category) an allied spirit cannot obtain more pow than the creation rules : 3d6

 

but the main point is Crel and Scoot note, for sure.

 

[Akhôrahil]

4 minutes ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

you can read in the wyter rules differents limitations : the max POW depends on the community size. In this way (and I m not sure wyter rules is adapted to other spirit category) an allied spirit cannot obtain more pow than the creation rules : 3d6

This is more a case that it has a maximum size, an effect of the Wyter rules. When it spends POW for Rune Magic, I imagine it regains it one-for-one from POW sacrifices.

When you sacrifice POW for Rune Magic, I also don't imagine it goes straight to the God's/Spirit's POW - rather, it's transformed into your Rune Points. 

But then, there is also POW as bribery and POW as Fetch sacrifice.

Oh, and if the POW of the spirit is a max size and it works like a Wyter, that's pretty abusable as well - it means that it can sacrifice POW for Rune Points, and then you feed it POW back up to its maximum.

Edited February 19, 2020 by Akhôrahil

[scott-martin]

4 minutes ago, Akhôrahil said:

But then, there is also POW as bribery and POW as Fetch sacrifice.

One insidious take on the POW economy (which might even approach inner canon) is that "donated" POW may not get absorbed into the spirit's magical footprint. It could stay with the donator as a kind of "black box" power pool that the donator can no longer access . . . but the spirit (or god) can manipulate in some fashion. The entity will always own that slice of your soul for the rest of your life. Spirits tend to use it differently. Trance possession happens. Specialists can fiddle with the "accounting."

This would fuel something like Stormbringer demonic pacts as well as the more orthodox relationships we have in the rules now. The shaman sacrifices him/herself to him/herself and becomes strong in the spirit world. The worshipper sacrifices to god and receives RP as compensation. The heroic figure receives a spirit double and in some circumstances diverts sacrifice to that allied entity. The sorcerer remains alone (unless you get really into the artifice of familiar magic) and the mystic makes an aesthetic judgement from afar. 

Thank you! Undoubtedly not new to anyone but fresh lightning for me.

[Akhôrahil]

3 minutes ago, scott-martin said:

 The sorcerer remains alone (unless you get really into the artifice of familiar magic) and the mystic makes an aesthetic judgement from afar. 

The sorceror even eats (taps) the outside world instead, sacrificing the outside world to himself.

Any wonder why they get called soulless?

[scott-martin]

5 minutes ago, Akhôrahil said:

Any wonder why they get called soulless?

Who needs organic POW when Free INT is the short cut to real power?

And the blue man knows all.

Edited February 19, 2020 by scott-martin
gratuitous final swipe against the blue meanies

[davecake]

On 2/20/2020 at 1:17 AM, Akhôrahil said:

When you sacrifice POW for Rune Magic, I also don't imagine it goes straight to the God's/Spirit's POW - rather, it's transformed into your Rune Points. 

But when you get Rune points, and don’t use them for magic that season, the god gets to use them for their own purposes. Think of it like fractional reserve banking 😄. It’s an agreement between god and man that benefits both. 
There are religions that have a different deal, generally in favour of the deity - Magasta, for example, who requires regular POW sacrifice of his active worshippers. 

[Lordabdul]

On 2/19/2020 at 7:07 AM, Crel said:

I assume all spirits in the Spirit World can

What did you mean there? Aren't all spirits, like, by definition, in the spirit world? (some are materialized in the mundane world, either temporarily or more constantly, though)

I think all spirits can be worshiped, but the vast majority of them have nothing to give a would-be worshiper, so they mostly ask for favours and other things. But technically, for any spirit cult, there must have been a first worshiper, so one can imagine players starting a new spirit cult with any arbitrary spirit that's up for it. The question is whether you get something back for that first POW sacrifice.

[Shiningbrow]

8 minutes ago, lordabdul said:

What did you mean there? Aren't all spirits, like, by definition, in the spirit world? (some are materialized in the mundane world, either temporarily or more constantly, though)

I think all spirits can be worshiped, but the vast majority of them have nothing to give a would-be worshiper, so they mostly ask for favours and other things. But technically, for any spirit cult, there must have been a first worshiper, so one can imagine players starting a new spirit cult with any arbitrary spirit that's up for it. The question is whether you get something back for that first POW sacrifice.

There's a section on this in the book, at the end of the Spirit World chapter, with Black Fang Brotherhood and Oakfed as examples.

[Austin]

3 hours ago, lordabdul said:

What did you mean there? Aren't all spirits, like, by definition, in the spirit world?

I see it as an "over there" and "over here" distinction. A spirit materializing to the adventurers isn't in the Spirit World, it's "over here."

I also tend to mark a distinction between types of discorporation--whether invisibly wandering the Middle World, or traveling into the Spirit World--but that's likely my Glorantha varying as a result of my habitual D&D-ism. Likewise, I tend to think that non-visible spirits lurking near the Middle World (like ghosts) aren't in the Spirit World, but are sort of in between the two. I generally don't overlap the Spirit World on the Middle World, but have its dimensions and locations always based upon the person going there.

That's based somewhat on how I read the spirit travel procedures in the core rulebook. I've come to believe that might not what the text attempts to present since then, from conversations on these forums, but it's still what I go with at my table. It works for us.

In particular with that post, I was making reference to Spirit Pacts a shaman can make while traveling the Spirit World. They can make a Pact with any size of spirit by sacrificing POW, which leads me to believe that any spirit can receive a POW sacrifice. In a very real sense I've suggested (and will probably implement/continue to implement) a "different world" requirement for POW sacrifice--aka Worship ceremonies where the Spirit/God World becomes part of the Middle World for a time--as a means of game balance which also seems to mesh with the setting. This way, it becomes less trivial for the adventurers to sac POW to increase a spirit's size as Akhorahil was wondering since they have to do so under specific circumstances.

[davecake]

The issue with allied spirits is a real one, but I think the answer is roleplaying, rather than rules. A rune master and their allied spirits are both devoted servants of their god (allied spirits are generally initiates of the cult too), and giving POW to the allied spirit when it could be given to the god, or otherwise devoted to the gods purposes, is impious and sacrilegious unless there is a good reason, and the allied spirit will neither want it or accept it most of the time. 
But it might sometimes be acceptable, such as healing a spirit that has lost POW to Tapping or vampiric/Chaotic forces. 
And if the runemaster and their ally both are Illuminated, then all bets are off, why not make people worship your allied spirit for your magical benefit? Such cheesy tricks are par for the course for Illuminates...  and Heroes. 

[Lordabdul]

13 hours ago, Shiningbrow said:

There's a section on this in the book, at the end of the Spirit World chapter, with Black Fang Brotherhood and Oakfed as examples.

Yep, exactly. But what I meant was that any spirit can become like Oakfed et al. It's like, err, politicians or priests. Anybody can become one. But that doesn't mean everybody will. So many spirits will not be interested in talking to PCs who want to sacrifice POW. Many spirits will actually behave in ways that are too alien to even be able to communicate.

9 hours ago, Crel said:

but that's likely my Glorantha varying as a result of my habitual D&D-ism.

Yeah I'm not frankly sure which one of our two Gloranthas is the one "varying" (I'll have to re-read the spirit chapters in the rulebook)

At first I figured that spirits are always in the spirit world, even when they materialize in the material world... the same way that a shaman doesn't disappear from the material world when they go in the spirit world (their body stays there, even though it's somewhat "empty" and requires allied PCs and spirits to protect it). I haven't given it much thought whether spirits do the exact same thing, i.e. they only leave an "empty husk" on the spirit plane when they materialize, or if they remain "conscious" on both planes. The first option might work if spirits have no reason to attack that "empty husk" while the spirit is materialized. The second option might work if the spirit doesn't wander too far, and stays where the spirit and material worlds match each other closely enough... which might nicely explain why materialized spirits tend to stay around the same place... (I believe spirits have to possess a person or animal in order to have more freedom of movement).

But I guess treating it as the spirit completely moving from one world to another works too. I don't think I've had anything in my game yet that invalidates any of those theories so I guess I have time to figure out which one I prefer  

[soltakss]

On 2/19/2020 at 1:57 PM, Akhôrahil said:

There are several types of spirits that can receive POW sacrifices (wyters, spirit cult spirits, ancestors if going by older rules...), but is it a general effect that all spirits can? 

Generally, yes, but this doesn't necessarily give you any benefits. Not all spirits can grant Rune magic.

On 2/19/2020 at 1:57 PM, Akhôrahil said:

It's beautifully abusable with Allied Spirits (to the point where it probably shouldn't be allowed even if the general case holds true).

I am not sure if all spirits get the POW you sacrifice. 

Shamans can do it with Controlled Spirits. Daka Fal used to grant Gift POW, which gifted POW to another Spirit, which is what you are effectively trying to do.

[PhilHibbs]

I would say, in general, no. Great spirits can, some spirits are powerful enough that they form cults and can receive worship. But not all spirits are in that category, and certainly allied spirits are not. Maybe a heroquest could result in gaining some level of that ability.

[Shiningbrow]

12 hours ago, davecake said:

But it might sometimes be acceptable, such as healing a spirit that has lost POW to Tapping or vampiric/Chaotic forces. 

That's what Restore Health is for...