Throwing Grenade

[Lloyd Dupont]

So...

How do I know where the grenade falls? Even a failure can be devastating... But I only fudged it so far... But I'd like to know an easy, fair, predictable procedure... 

[Loïc]

I do remember, as a player, two fumbles with hand grenades (once was mine, the other a friend's). Each time, it was CoC, and the keeper described how the grenade slipped from our hands and exploded at our feet... Game over...

In such a game (CoC and other realistic settings), I would apply the "normal" damages for a "simple" failure. Or course, it would be devastating, but the players would have a chance to survive, even one-armed or one-legged. Some players, according to their characters, don't mind (an old professor or scientist, for example). And if the player doesn't want to continue roleplaying his mutilated character, I would allow him to create another one (and make the former character a contact of the party, as a NPC).

 

14 minutes ago, Lloyd Dupont said:

But I'd like to know an easy, fair, predictable procedure... 

As I said, fumble = death in the immediate area of effects. No need to roll the dice, really. Or just to ensure your party it is not "GM certified"... And with simple failure, well, applying the damages is quite simple. Is it fair ? I don't think a grenade has anything to do with such a concept... 😁

Edited September 30, 2020 by Loïc

[Loïc]

Oh, and for "predictable procedure", I'm sure that your party, after their first failure, will be very cautious when manipulating explosives again. That's a good predictable procedure, isn't it? 😊

[Lloyd Dupont]

I mean... You might miss the target.. but the grenade will still be around there... And even if one succeed the grenade doesn't explode on contact and bounce around a bit...

Fumble is easy, you drop it on the ground and.. kaboom (one could save, I'd say).
But when you throw at enemy and do a normal fail.. how close/far its is...
For that matter on a success, how close it is?
And what's the max throwing range?

So many questions! 😮 

Edited September 30, 2020 by Lloyd Dupont

[Loïc]

Oh, sorry, misunterstood...

Maybe, for simple failure, you should apply something like "special failure" ? Close to fumble, but not a fumble (for example : 10 points from fumble and below) ? If it's a "special failure", there should be some collateral damages... And for other failures, I think no damage should apply to anyone (except cosmetic elements). As a matter of fact, when it's a success, it means the target is in the area of effects, and if it is critical success, it means the grenade is exploding right in the target's face. Why should the target suffer any damage with a failure? Eventually, you can just describe he is tottering, but personnally, I wouldn't apply damages. Of course, it can depend on what the target is : a person, a car, a building, the Great Cthulhu ?

[Lloyd Dupont]

I mean you need not much precision at all... so if I inflict no damage on failure... I should always make the throw an easy skill hey?

At any rate my question is how to determine where it lands on the maps (I use very simplified 2d map on a white board), from there I damage anyone in the area, friends, foes, passer-by, priceless crystal vase!
The skill no longer matter once it land on the map.... (that's how I do it)

Same as shooting in a melee group is an easy skill while hitting the target is hard!  

Edited September 30, 2020 by Lloyd Dupont

[Loïc]

11 minutes ago, Lloyd Dupont said:

I mean you need not much precision at all... so if I inflict no damage on failure... I should always make the throw an easy skill hey?

At any rate my question is how to determine where it lands on the maps (I use very simplified 2d map on a white board), from there I damage anyone in the area, friends, foes, passer-by, priceless crystal vase!
The skill no longer matter once it land on the map.... (that's how I do it)

Same as shooting in a melee group is an easy skill while hitting the target is hard!  

Yeah, throwing anything is easy, but as for shooting, hitting the target is hard... 😊

Where the grenade is landing ? For this kind of situation, I have a 8-sided die with cardinal points (N, E, W, S, SW, SE, NE, NW) (bought it at my local RPG shop). Of course, I consider that even on a failure the thrower is unlikely to throw the grenade behind him, at the opposit of his target... So, let's say the target is north of the thrower:

• if it's rolling N, NW or NE, the grenade will land beyond the target (at the opposit of the thrower). No particular effect.
• if it's rolling E or W, it's landing just East or West of the thrower. No particular effect.
• and if it's rolling S, SW or SE, it's landing between the thrower and the target. It's causing some smokescreen effect for one round, and so the target can try to run away, while the thrower can try to charge takin advantage of the cover. Fair enough I think.

For this roll, always consider the target is north of the thrower, it's easier to resolve. You can let the player roll the "cardinal die", of course, it's funnier.

I used this trick several times when a player is trying (and failing) to pass some object (artifact, weapon...) on another player, by throwing it in the heat of the action. Maybe you'll find it useful for grenades?

I hope I was clear, I'm afraid I made many french barbarisms on this post... 😳

[soltakss]

18 minutes ago, Loïc said:

Where the grenade is landing ? For this kind of situation, I have a 8-sided die with cardinal points (N, E, W, S, SW, SE, NE, NW) (bought it at my local RPG shop). Of course, I consider that even on a failure the thrower is unlikely to throw the grenade behind him, at the opposit of his target... So, let's say the target is north of the thrower:

• if it's rolling N, NW or NE, the grenade will land beyond the target (at the opposit of the thrower). No particular effect.
• if it's rolling E or W, it's landing just East or West of the thrower. No particular effect.
• and if it's rolling S, SW or SE, it's landing between the thrower and the target. It's causing some smokescreen effect for one round, and so the target can try to run away, while the thrower can try to charge takin advantage of the cover. Fair enough I think.

There were some rules in RQ3, maybe in Elder Secrets, for Mostali. Your description looks close enough to those rules, I think.

I would also probably say:

• Critical: You have thrown it into/under their armour
• Special: You have thrown it where you want it to be, without rolling for direction
• Success: You have thrown it around the intended target, so that the explosion affects the intended target, but roll for direction
• Failure: You have thrown it in a random direction based on the target, but far enough away so as not to harm them
• Fumble: You have dropped it into your boot, down the neck or other such place, or roll on the Missile Fumble Table.

[Loïc]

6 minutes ago, soltakss said:

There were some rules in RQ3, maybe in Elder Secrets, for Mostali. Your description looks close enough to those rules, I think.

I would also probably say:

• Critical: You have thrown it into/under their armour
• Special: You have thrown it where you want it to be, without rolling for direction
• Success: You have thrown it around the intended target, so that the explosion affects the intended target, but roll for direction
• Failure: You have thrown it in a random direction based on the target, but far enough away so as not to harm them
• Fumble: You have dropped it into your boot, down the neck or other such place, or roll on the Missile Fumble Table.

Didn't know this one, thanks! I think I'll try it on the next explosive throwing, and so I'll keep my direction roll for success and failure, as required (I still like the possibility of smokescreen effect...). 😊

[dieselpunk]

I'd go with a fail being whatever needs to happen for damage not to be inflicted. It's a fail. The only other add I'd do for any of these situations is to make what would be narratively interesting the thing that happens. Have it affect the environment (e.g. starts a fire) or cause some other consequence (e.g. exposes a secret passage way behind the book shelves). Anything that keeps a conflict from just being a series of hit/miss reports until one side dies.

Edited September 30, 2020 by dieselpunk

[Atgxtg]

4 hours ago, Lloyd Dupont said:

So...

How do I know where the grenade falls? Even a failure can be devastating... But I only fudged it so far... But I'd like to know an easy, fair, predictable procedure... 

I'd suggest multiplying the distance to the target and the percentage failed by to get the distance missed by, in some random direction determined by rolling 1D8, with 1 being straight past, 2 being past and to the right (45), 3 being to the right (90) and so forth. If you want a simplier method just use half the distance tot he target.

So if a character threw a grande at someone 70 feet away, and had a 57% chance of success and rolled an 89, he'd fail by around 30% (it's 31% but close counts with hand grenade) or 21 feet. If he rolled a 5 on the D8 it would be short and to the left (45 degrees), which would probably be bad news for both the thrower and the target. 

If using the simpler method the grenade would be off by 35 feet.

 

BTW, fragmentation grenades all called defensive grenades because the thrower will be within the blast radius and will need to have cover.

 

[hix]

Here's how I do it. I play on hex grids, so ymmv. A missed grenade lands d3 hexes away from the intended target hex. Roll a d6 to see which direction, each number representing the side of a hex.

[olskool]

8 hours ago, Lloyd Dupont said:

So...

How do I know where the grenade falls? Even a failure can be devastating... But I only fudged it so far... But I'd like to know an easy, fair, predictable procedure... 

You can always use the system devised by GDW in Twilight2000.  You roll a 1D6 for the direction on a HEX grid to get the DIRECTION OF DEVIATION of the toss.  You then roll 1D6 for the number of meters your throw is off from that "target hex" which YOU [the thrower] designated.   This is known as the grenade's DEVIATION.  From the 1D6 roll [for Deviation] you SUBTRACT 1 for every 10% or fraction thereof that you rolled UNDER the To Hit chance.  IF the modified result of the roll is 0 or less (yes, negative numbers are possible) your grenade lands in the Designated Hex.  Otherwise, it's considered to have landed or rolled to the hex indicated by the Deviation Rolls [for direction and distance].  We would roll TWO DIFFERENT COLORED D6s.  One color for the Direction and the other for the Distance of the grenade's Deviation.  

[olskool]

It should also be noted that this DEVIATION ROLL system was also used for Mortars and Artillery but the deviation distances would be multiplied by 5 for Mortars and by 10 for Artillery Shells and Artillery Rockets (the Russians LOVE their Artillery Rockets...).  

[Lloyd Dupont]

Thanks yall, I am starting to have a pretty good idea so far from all the answers...

But just to emphasize what I perhaps do intentionally quite different from some other people here, a fail doesn't mean the target take no damage, it just mean that the grenade fall way off.. but way off might still be close enough to damage the target (and the thrower?)

After all, how hard could it be to throw a 2kg rocks 20m away with a 10m radius error tolerance.... So either I make it easy (skillx2), or skill fail still need be considered.
I like the later (skill fail still do something) because I like lost bullets and arrows to hit an unintended target occasionally instead of disappearing in the pit of failed skill roll...

It's not all bad, one can hide before it explodes.. depends on your initiative , speed and dodge skill  

Edited October 1, 2020 by Lloyd Dupont

[SDLeary]

9 hours ago, hix said:

Roll a d6 to see which direction ... <snip>

Or, you could get a GW scatter die, a measuring tape, and just wing it... no need to play on hexes or a battlemat

SDLeary

[Atgxtg]

15 hours ago, Lloyd Dupont said:

Thanks yall, I am starting to have a pretty good idea so far from all the answers...

But just to emphasize what I perhaps do intentionally quite different from some other people here, a fail doesn't mean the target take no damage, it just mean that the grenade fall way off.. but way off might still be close enough to damage the target (and the thrower?)

Yeah, that's why I brought up the "Defesive Grenade" classification. Generally speaking the thrower is ususally within the secondary blast radius of a frag grenade. 

15 hours ago, Lloyd Dupont said:

After all, how hard could it be to throw a 2kg rocks 20m away with a 10m radius error tolerance.... So either I make it easy (skillx2), or skill fail still need be considered.

Yes, that's why I like to use the range as a factor to detemine the amount of error. If you are throwing at a target 20m away you're grenade is going to end up within 10m of the target, unless you drop it, or it rolls off a roof, or you are to hyper and overdo it, or falls down a hole or something. BTW with the method I mentioned earlier, you'd need to fail by more than 50% to be off by more than 10m. 

15 hours ago, Lloyd Dupont said:

I like the later (skill fail still do something) because I like lost bullets and arrows to hit an unintended target occasionally instead of disappearing in the pit of failed skill roll...

Yes, and grenades are going to explode somewhere.

 

[soltakss]

18 hours ago, Lloyd Dupont said:

But just to emphasize what I perhaps do intentionally quite different from some other people here, a fail doesn't mean the target take no damage, it just mean that the grenade fall way off.. but way off might still be close enough to damage the target (and the thrower?)

Yes, you fail the throw, not activating the grenade.

Throwing a grenade means getting it to the right spot so that it explodes doing damage where you want it.

How many grenades don't explode when thrown? sure, there might be duds, but most go off somewhere. It's the ones that hit something and bounce back into your lap that you have to be careful about.

18 hours ago, Lloyd Dupont said:

After all, how hard could it be to throw a 2kg rocks 20m away with a 10m radius error tolerance.... So either I make it easy (skillx2), or skill fail still need be considered.

Pretty difficult, actually. Throwing is a skill, like anything else. People have a raw ability but it can be improved. 

Making everything an easy roll defeats the point of having a Throw skill. you have a skill because throwing is not easy. Throwing a grenade is not easy as you have to know how to throw it and where it should land.

[Kloster]

19 hours ago, Lloyd Dupont said:

After all, how hard could it be to throw a 2kg rocks 20m away with a 10m radius error tolerance....

Have you ever thrown a grenade (a real one I mean)?

The 1st thing my army instructor told me about frags is that, when throwing a grenade, you are NEVER far enough to avoid being hit by several fragments. So, you learn to hide behind something. Which means you are fast, and thus not accurate. So, it is pretty difficult, in fact, if you want to stay safe.

[Lloyd Dupont]

No I haven't thrown real grenade.. but from my own experience throwing rock.. I can't believe one can miss by more than 10 meters.... 😮 
In fact, come to think of it, it might be hard to throw beyond 15 meters to start with... so unless one drop the ball (which happens hey) it's almost unmissable (where a miss is more than 10 meter away from a target which is 15m away)

 

To illustrate my disbelief on how hard it is to miss...
The big circle is a 20m circle around the thrower (the max throw range), the medium circle is the the target area (that some say is easy to miss, ahem... personally I refuse to go any lower than 75% chance to hit), the small circle is the thrower...
the line define an roughly 90 degree quadrant you have to vaguely aim for when throwing (totally doable with no less than 98% chance)

 

Now, the one thing I might get very wrong. is the range (which would change a lot of things).. some say "a rock" can be throw at 20 meters... (where a rock is a little bit of a fuzzy item)

Some other have much bigger distance...
At any rate BRP says 20 meter too... (I was thinking to go with STR meters... or maybe STRx1.5 meters)

Edited October 2, 2020 by Lloyd Dupont

[Atgxtg]

55 minutes ago, Lloyd Dupont said:

No I haven't thrown real grenade.. but from my own experience throwing rock.. I can't believe one can miss by more than 10 meters.... 😮 

You can't unless you flub it, rush it, or have some sort of obstacle in the way. But...in combat, people generally rush it, can flub it, and the targets tend to use obstacles for cover. 

To illustrate the point, most firefights take place within 7m with about 85% of the shots missing. 

 

 

Quote

the line define an roughly 90 degree quadrant you have to vaguely aim for when throwing (totally doable with no less than 98% chance)

Under stress free circumstances definitely. In combat, less so (that 98%). Still, even a total screw up should be able to throw a grenade close enough to threaten an unprotected target. 

 

Quote

Now, the one thing I might get very wrong. is the range (which would change a lot of things).. some say "a rock" can be throw at 20 meters... (where a rock is a little bit of a fuzzy item)

About 15m seems to be about right for a typical, skilled thrower. It kinda varies depending on the type of "rock". Generally they have gotten smaller and lighter over the years.

Quote

Some other have much bigger distance...
At any rate BRP says 20 meter too... (I was thinking to go with STR meters... or maybe STRx1.5 meters)

Don't forget rifle grenades and grenade launchers. If you are launching a grenade at someone over 100m away, "missing" becomes more of a possibility. Still, most modern grades have a 15m/30m burst radius, and can be dangerous to people ever further away. A unbarred launcher seems more likely than a handheld grande for a SciFi setting. 

Edited October 2, 2020 by Atgxtg

[Lloyd Dupont]

Ha yeah, thanks for reminding me about grenade launcher, I totally forgot! 😮

I am in the process of making an equipment list indexed by tech level (our current earth tech level is 4, the chart goes to level 20...) so, obviously I will need to put those in!  

I need it so I have a chart where the player can get their equipment, but hyper advanced alien could also get their much better one!

[Lloyd Dupont]

1 hour ago, Atgxtg said:

You can't unless you flub it, rush it, or have some sort of obstacle in the way. But...in combat, people generally rush it, can flub it, and the targets tend to use obstacles for cover. 

To illustrate the point, most firefights take place within 7m with about 85% of the shots missing. 

I am not talking about bullet (those are pretty small) but grenade with a big radius!.....

Anyway, yeah I can imagine that hitting an inconvenient obstacle is a real possibility though! ^^

[soltakss]

12 hours ago, Lloyd Dupont said:

No I haven't thrown real grenade.. but from my own experience throwing rock.. I can't believe one can miss by more than 10 meters.... 😮 

First year at senior school, aged 11, we did athletics and tried throwing a discus. Mine went behind me. I was excused from throwing anything again and had to stick to running and jumping from then on.

So, missing by 10m is very easy.

Edited October 2, 2020 by soltakss
Bad memory

[Lloyd Dupont]

-- removed --
 

Edited October 2, 2020 by Lloyd Dupont