Sorcery: Why POW and not INT ?

[Agentorange]

Now this is something that's puzzled me since I bought the BRP rules. Sorcery is described as " complex occult formulas, formalised as spells " yet the deciding factor whether you can be a sorcerer is having a minimum POW of 16.

To me that seems a bit odd, if we're dealing with "complex occult formulas" then having a good memory and being a bit on the brainy side ( both of which I would express as INT ) seem more important than how much raw POW you've got. It's no big deal I've simply houseruled in my campaign that INT is the deciding factor not POW. Just curious why is all.

[nate]

I always understood the idea as POW represents how favored a character is by the gods, and thus influences directly their spellcasting and abilities to contact realms of magical power, but that is all I know. Good luck figuring it out.

[GianniVacca]

What you write has its rationale. The fact is that traditionally POW has been the most important characteristic for magic-empowered characters. INT, however, has had its importance in many BRP-inspired systems (e.g., RuneQuest).

[threedeesix]

Now this is something that's puzzled me since I bought the BRP rules. Sorcery is described as " complex occult formulas, formalised as spells " yet the deciding factor whether you can be a sorcerer is having a minimum POW of 16.

To me that seems a bit odd, if we're dealing with "complex occult formulas" then having a good memory and being a bit on the brainy side ( both of which I would express as INT ) seem more important than how much raw POW you've got. It's no big deal I've simply houseruled in my campaign that INT is the deciding factor not POW. Just curious why is all.

I think the way Sorcery works now fits the description as given. The minimum POW requirement takes into account that not everyone has the innate ability to cast spells, while the "complex formulas" comment is taken into account by having a higher INT character having a better chance of learning a specific spell.

Someone with a low INT and high POW, may still have the capability to cast spells, but the chance of them learning a specific spell is considerably less. While someone with a high INT and low POW may be smart enough, but lack the innate ability.

If it fits your campaign to change it then do whats best for your group, but I think you should try it as is for a while.

Rod

[Charles Green]

I think it may also be a holdover from earlier version of the Stormbringer rules, where a prospective sorcerer had to have a 16 in both POW and INT in order to learn and cast spells.

[threshold]

I have to agree. In previous campaigns using Sorcery, we set an prereq for INT to use Sorcerous magic, probably because we went straight from Stormbringer to Elric! rules.

[Jason D]

Having POW for the requirement allows for shamanic characters who might not necessarily be the smartest tools in the shed, but can still cast magic spells.

However, it was one of those rules I evaluated to determine if it needed to be changed. My conclusion, as you can see, was "if it ain't broke", and none of my play experience with BRP indicated to me that it was a rule desperately in need of changing.

[SDLeary]

Considering the way the systems turned out, I would think that Magic would be the one with the INT requirement. Sorcery is much more personal in BRP RAW, much more a direct covenant with the Otherworld Powers, an Invocation of those powers if you will.

Magic has to be learned, studied, improved. Much closer to the Sorcery of RQIII and IV (RQ:AiG). And in this case INT is important, though not a limiting factor to learning Magic, it is the characteristic that base spell casting ability is based on. If you wanted more INT influence, you could put Magic Spells in the Mental Skills category, though this might be considered a bit of double dipping.

SDLeary

[The Venomous Pao]

If you wanted more INT influence, you could put Magic Spells in the Mental Skills category, though this might be considered a bit of double dipping.

Actually, as written they already are considered mental skills if you're using skill bonuses. See p. 89, last sentence before "Costs of Magic" setting. As a side note, the same is true for psychic powers (p. 111, last sentence before "Gaining New Psychic Abilities").

I had completely missed these tidbits my first two or three times through the book and screwed over a player in the process. Of course, once could easily decide not to grant the bonuses to suppress the the perceived double dip. But it's worth it to know that they're there by default.

[SDLeary]

Actually, as written they already are considered mental skills if you're using skill bonuses. See p. 89, last sentence before "Costs of Magic" setting. As a side note, the same is true for psychic powers (p. 111, last sentence before "Gaining New Psychic Abilities").

I had completely missed these tidbits my first two or three times through the book and screwed over a player in the process. Of course, once could easily decide not to grant the bonuses to suppress the the perceived double dip. But it's worth it to know that they're there by default.

WOW! Thanks for pointing that one out. I totally missed that one too! Certainly reinforces the importance of INT for Magic.

SDLeary

[The Venomous Pao]

WOW! Thanks for pointing that one out. I totally missed that one too! Certainly reinforces the importance of INT for Magic.

SDLeary

Glad to help. Believe me, my player was more than a little tweaked when he pointed that out to me

[Simlasa]

The minimum POW requirement takes into account that not everyone has the innate ability to cast spells, while the "complex formulas" comment is taken into account by having a higher INT character having a better chance of learning a specific spell.

Someone with a low INT and high POW, may still have the capability to cast spells, but the chance of them learning a specific spell is considerably less. While someone with a high INT and low POW may be smart enough, but lack the innate ability.

This makes sense to me.

Having it rely solely on INT doesn't feel right IMO.

[Agentorange]

I can see where people are coming from on this one, but to me low or high POW is simply a matter of practicality in that if you have a low POW you've got less PP to fuel spells and less POW for enchantments etc etc. Now obviously someone with a low POW is unlikely to be a professional sorcerer because they simply don't have the magical resevoir of PP and POW to be effective in that role but I don't see a low POW actually preventing them learning sorcery spells. I suppose what I'm saying is that actual gameplay or real life ( as it were ) would weed out low POW characters from being sorcerers, their talents simply wouldn't run in that direction. So to me saying you've got to have 16 POW to be a sorcerer seems an arbitary rule rather than a practical impediment if that makes sense.

On the other if you're dealing with " complex occult formulas " and grimoires full of spells then INT and possibly EDU would seem much more relevent.

I can forsee a situation where you could have someone with high INT or EDU but fairly average POW acting as a tutor or teacher in the sorcerous arts, teaching sorcery 101 as it were. After all as long as you've got enough PP to crank off Witch Sight or Liken Shape or whatever does it really matter if you've got 15 POW or 16 POW ? It is after all PP that fuels spells not POW.

Characters with low POW are unlikely to specialised magic users of any sort.

[Chaot]

I've always viewed Pow as the character's innate connection with the multiverse and Sorcery as aligning oneself with aspects of said multiverse to produce a result. To me, the whole "complex occult formulas, formalised as spells" refers to ritual and putting one's self into a certain mental space.

Actually understanding why Sorcery works is besides the point. It's a method of tapping into something by rote. Int determines how many of these rituals you've internalized.

[vagabond]

My thoughts:

The original Stormbringer (up to 4th) ruled that INT+POW >= 32 to use

Sorcery, but I also believe there was another rule that stated POW >= 16

(which I often ignored). I like the potential of low INT + high POW for

sorceror's fueled by raw power but with little control. I also liked high INT

+ lower POW to represent the more studious but not as innately gifted.

In Elric!, the rule went to POW >= 16, but tucked away, there was still an

INT requirement.

Anyway, the rules as written do allow for some flex here ...

Ian