Question re: mapping software

[GMKen]

So I’ve been putting together some scenarios for my upcoming Balazar campaign, thinks like a tomb of a Votanki chaos fighter, a 2nd age troll raiding outpost, an aerie where might be found the wings of Trilus, that sort of thing.  I decided to get a bit ambitious and started thinking about submitting them for the Jonstown Compendium to share with others.

After looking over the preview that MOB posted for The Last Barrow, I’m realizing that my crappy hand-drawn maps aren’t going to cut it.  Even if I take a stylistic approach of laying out the adventures like the old materials circa 1980, which is my preference, I’m still going to need to up my game for the ‘dungeon’ layouts.

Are there any preferred or recommended mapping programs that y’all could suggest?  I wouldn’t need anything too elaborate.  But when the maps in The Sea Cave are better than what I can come up with then I know I need help.

One of the reasons I’m considering submitting them to JC is that as I go through the latest round of Runequest materials, I’m finding that they feel very ‘scripted’ as compared with the RQ2 materials.  I want to offer up some basic, crunchy scenarios that offer the GM more flexibility as to how they develop, or where they are located, and aren’t necessarily tied to some meta-narrative (though they will be in my particular campaign).

Thoughts?

[Nick Brooke]

For pretty outdoor fantasy mapping (mountains, hills, forests, etc.), I find Wonderdraft dead good (it’s $30). Forum and examples here, mapping assets here.

There’s a version for creating detailed battle-maps for wilderness encounters / towns / interiors / caves and dungeons called Dungeondraft (forum, assets) that I’ve heard good things about, but I haven’t yet checked it out (I don’t map dungeons; Adobe Illustrator does what I need for structures).

Edited December 7, 2020 by Nick Brooke

[Nick Brooke]

Also, consider paying someone talented to make your maps awesome. Ludo Chabant @lordabduland the BWT team (Diana @Diana Probst & Kristi) drew maps and views for Sandheart; Dario Corallo is also very versatile; their rates are reasonable and they’re all great collaborators.

If you want help contacting any artists or cartographers, the friendly Jonstown Compendium ambassador is always available to assist.

Edited December 7, 2020 by Nick Brooke

[Baron Wulfraed]

Maybe a bit more expensive (especially if you buy the various plug-ins for dungeon and village layouts) ProFantasy's Campaign Cartographer 3

https://www.profantasy.com/products/cc3.asp

[jholen]

1 hour ago, Baron Wulfraed said:

Maybe a bit more expensive (especially if you buy the various plug-ins for dungeon and village layouts) ProFantasy's Campaign Cartographer 3

https://www.profantasy.com/products/cc3.asp

Currently on sale @ Humble Bundle (2 days left as of 12/7/20.)

https://www.humblebundle.com/software/maps-extravaganza-encore-software?hmb_source=navbar&hmb_medium=product_tile&hmb_campaign=tile_index_5

[Diana Probst]

5 hours ago, Baron Wulfraed said:

Maybe a bit more expensive (especially if you buy the various plug-ins for dungeon and village layouts) ProFantasy's Campaign Cartographer 3

https://www.profantasy.com/products/cc3.asp

While I personally do use this, I'll warn you away for light use.  It's essentially a macro language disguised as mapping software.  This way, genuinely, lies madness.

Kris and I are definitely available for maps (thanks Nick!) but you can also get good results from a search for 'free online dungeon mapper' or 'free online campaign mapper'.  There is some good stuff out there if you want to do it yourself.

Generally a map by one of Beer With Teeth would come in cheaper than art work, and we think it looks better than most people can do by themselves, but genuinely, don't underestimate what's online.  If you have an art budget, putting some of it to work on maps is good.

[Diana Probst]

17 hours ago, Nick Brooke said:

Also, consider paying someone talented to make your maps awesome. Ludo Chabant @lordabduland the BWT team (Diana @Diana Probst & Kristi) drew maps and views for Sandheart; Dario Corallo is also very versatile; their rates are reasonable and they’re all great collaborators.

If you want help contacting any artists or cartographers, the friendly Jonstown Compendium ambassador is always available to assist.

You, sir, are doing that Ambassador thing again.

Thank you.

[GMKen]

Thanks for all of the suggestions.  These are great! 
 

I haven’t really considered an art budget (just trying to get a dungeon layout), but have been a patron of the arts over the decades.  Now that I’m thinking about it, given that I’m going for an RQ2 feel, I may try to do a couple pieces myself in the style of William Church.  His work always conveyed to me that the game was meant to be fun, even a bit silly.  So I would like to pay homage to that.  Thanks for the prod in that direction.  And hey, it’s just three lines over and over, it can’t be that hard, can it?  [yes, it can]
 

That being said, I can think of a couple pieces that would be interesting to have.  As an example, the unnamed Votanki hero who was trying to master the five elements to unite them against chaos used a combination of earth magic and strategically placed large fires to unleash a glacial lake at dawn (so dark on that side of the Rockwoods in the Elder Wilds while still day) from the Eleven Big Giant mountains onto a horde of chaos monsters.  That image is one of many on the walls of the long entry corridor into the tomb.  There’s no way I could do something like that justice.  That would take a professional artist.
 

Nowhere near that far along though.  Everything is very raw and still on paper as the ideas coalesce (like the Alchemist’s Flask [q.v. Plunder] with a couple doses of Royal Jelly [q.v. Trollpak] in the Queen’s gift chamber.  Or the Zorak Zoran raiding party whose lair was overrun in 721 [q.v. Trollpak] having a trollball team named the Oak Land Raiders (the playoffs were mapped on the wall of the mess {literally} hall).  It would probably be early next year before I get to the stage of seriously looking at art. But it will be considered.

[Nick Brooke]

Oh. I was only meaning that artists can draw maps. Not that you need art as well. (My art budget for Dangerford was $0.00, and the map was created in PowerPoint)

[soltakss]

On 12/8/2020 at 5:01 AM, GMKen said:

I haven’t really considered an art budget (just trying to get a dungeon layout), but have been a patron of the arts over the decades.  Now that I’m thinking about it, given that I’m going for an RQ2 feel, I may try to do a couple pieces myself in the style of William Church.  His work always conveyed to me that the game was meant to be fun, even a bit silly.  So I would like to pay homage to that.  Thanks for the prod in that direction.  And hey, it’s just three lines over and over, it can’t be that hard, can it?  [yes, it can]

On the matter of art budgets, for a full colour front/back page and 10 black and white interior illustrations, you are probably looking somewhere around $500. If you sell at $10 and sell 100 copies then that will break even. Adding editing on top of that could add another couple of hundred dollars, so the supplement needs to be more expensive or sell more copies to break even.

Using public domain artwork reduces the cost. However, maps are not going to be public domain, so are probably in the $500 cost. 

It can be really daunting at first, at least I thought so. 

[Psullie]

for me maps provide two functions: topological info and atmosphere. I remember hating the old TSR maps that were lines in grid paper as they had zero personality. the early Chaosium maps were great, even monochrome they oozed atmosphere and a quick glance gave you a sense on the place. (tbh I've mixed feelings about some of the newer RQ maps, too much style imo).

I use open source software: Krita, Inkscape and Gimp; to make my maps. here's one from my next JC offering:

[coffeemancer]

On 12/8/2020 at 6:01 AM, GMKen said:

Thanks for all of the suggestions.  These are great! 
 

I haven’t really considered an art budget (just trying to get a dungeon layout), but have been a patron of the arts over the decades.  Now that I’m thinking about it, given that I’m going for an RQ2 feel, I may try to do a couple pieces myself in the style of William Church.  His work always conveyed to me that the game was meant to be fun, even a bit silly.  So I would like to pay homage to that.  Thanks for the prod in that direction.  And hey, it’s just three lines over and over, it can’t be that hard, can it?  [yes, it can]
 

That being said, I can think of a couple pieces that would be interesting to have.  As an example, the unnamed Votanki hero who was trying to master the five elements to unite them against chaos used a combination of earth magic and strategically placed large fires to unleash a glacial lake at dawn (so dark on that side of the Rockwoods in the Elder Wilds while still day) from the Eleven Big Giant mountains onto a horde of chaos monsters.  That image is one of many on the walls of the long entry corridor into the tomb.  There’s no way I could do something like that justice.  That would take a professional artist.
 

Nowhere near that far along though.  Everything is very raw and still on paper as the ideas coalesce (like the Alchemist’s Flask [q.v. Plunder] with a couple doses of Royal Jelly [q.v. Trollpak] in the Queen’s gift chamber.  Or the Zorak Zoran raiding party whose lair was overrun in 721 [q.v. Trollpak] having a trollball team named the Oak Land Raiders (the playoffs were mapped on the wall of the mess {literally} hall).  It would probably be early next year before I get to the stage of seriously looking at art. But it will be considered.

I'm an art hobbyist who work for a pat on the back if you dont want to spend money.

 

[GMKen]

8 hours ago, coffeemancer said:

I'm an art hobbyist who work for a pat on the back if you dont want to spend money.

 

So many conflicting feelings...

-the libertarian in me says that no one is my slave, and you pay for the works that others do for you that they may prosper by their labors. [some Orlanthis]

-the Republican in me says Capitalism Baby!  Take the work of others and make money off of it. [Lunars]

-the Democrat in me says Let us share the glory of a successful publication together.  But I keep all the money for my...charitable RPG foundation.  [also Lunars]

-the Socialist in me says let us create something good together for society’s benefit.  If there are profits, I promise I’ll share them.  [yeah, right...And again, Lunars]
 

Putting aside the political philosophy agendas for a moment, my first question would be “What do you have in mind?”

Remember, I’m going for an RQ2 feel.  So probably a Perrinesque figure on the cover, likely female.  A couple of William Church homages inside.  Haven’t thought too much about what else, though.

So, what did you have in mind?

[Psullie]

1. That's why it's so difficult playing lunar adventurers

2. Do you own a drawing tablet or touch pad that you can draw on? Drawing with a mouse leads to insanity (again Lunars) 

3. What do you enjoy most? Drawing takes time. I enjoy doing both, but I honestly feel that the readers prefer I spend more time getting the words right, not the art. So I focus more on the writing.

4. If someone here is happy to draw for you, you could try a share breakdown: 50% Chaosium, 30% you & 20% artists for example

[coffeemancer]

18 hours ago, GMKen said:

RQ2 feel.

Don't know much 'bout that so I reckon' I gotta look into that.

 

18 hours ago, GMKen said:

what did you have in mind?

You tell me what you want and then I draw it.

 

18 hours ago, GMKen said:

political philosophy agendas

Dragon-newts do things for strange and mystical reasons. This is my karma.

[Diana Probst]

On 12/8/2020 at 5:01 AM, GMKen said:

 

I haven’t really considered an art budget (just trying to get a dungeon layout), but have been a patron of the arts over the decades.  Now that I’m thinking about it, given that I’m going for an RQ2 feel, I may try to do a couple pieces myself in the style of William Church.  His work always conveyed to me that the game was meant to be fun, even a bit silly.  So I would like to pay homage to that.  Thanks for the prod in that direction.  And hey, it’s just three lines over and over, it can’t be that hard, can it?  [yes, it can]

 

If you want to do basic maps then https://dungeonmapdoodler.com/draw/ is worth a look.  Credit plus joining the creator's patreon at $5/month is a good deal if you're otherwise terrible at drawing.  An offer of a profit share might also work.  It seems they're up for discussing alternative means of paying them, and the result is good for the amount of learning you have to do.

I'm all in favour of giving people money to do art, what with being an artist myself, but the Jonstown Compendium is made with love as well as money, so I'm not so much in favour I'll sulk.

@coffeemancer, do you have a portfolio or a deviantart?  That's always good to show to a client, especially if it has more than one style in it, so they can tell what they like and whether it will suit them.

[Lloyd Dupont]

1 hour ago, Diana Probst said:

If you want to do basic maps then https://dungeonmapdoodler.com/draw/ is worth a look

Diana! That's not good at all!
For a pet project of mine I have been trying to do exactly that!

I mean I am not quite sure what they do.. but I tried to do that eraser / merge with a vector graphic and the maths are killing me!  
After 6 months I gave up....
But they are doing it in a web app! 😮 
I am just going to go cry in a corner... 😰

I wonder if they do raster graphics though.. would be easier...but then, how do they do the nice boundary hey?

Edited December 17, 2020 by Lloyd Dupont

[GMKen]

3 hours ago, Diana Probst said:

I'm all in favour of giving people money to do art, what with being an artist myself, but the Jonstown Compendium is made with love as well as money, so I'm not so much in favour I'll sulk.

@coffeemancer, do you have a portfolio or a deviantart?  That's always good to show to a client, especially if it has more than one style in it, so they can tell what they like and whether it will suit them.

Believe you me I get that the Johnstown Compendium is a labor of love for the Runequest community.  That’s part of why I want to contribute something.  But I’m a bit of an iconoclast that wants to create something unique reflecting my own experiences back in the 80s.  So I’m looking at all the old materials, how they were presented, the layouts and so forth, and imagining how I can emulate that, but with a modern feel, while still completely retro.  Part of that is the art.

Did find a Pinterest page for coffeemancer, and it seems that they are focused on figures.  Which is okay; if you look at the old Judges Guild materials they would often feature drawings of individuals as part of the art (Hellpits of Nightfang and Broken Tree Inn come to mind).  Now I’m just cogitating on what figures would be appropriate to include, and where.

Conceptually, it will probably be structured as a collection of 3-5 short, crunchy dungeon crawls, the sort of thing you might have found in the fanzines of the early 80s.  While written for Balazar and the Elder Wilds, they will hopefully be the sort of thing that could be plopped down anywhere.  After all, where won’t you find an old Zorak Zoran raiding outpost?

So one piece of art could be a Dark Troll zombie to be included in that section.  I do want to be clear that I will either be paying for the work of art or the right to use it in my work.  Profit-sharing doesn’t work because there’s no good way to really verify the numbers to ensure you’re getting proper payment.  Too easy to cook the books.  Trust me [no, don’t], I worked in banking and finance for two decades, cooking the books on something like that would be child’s play.  I’m not comfortable with that, so I have to insist on clear legal title for a commercial publication.  It’s just the proper way to do it.

[Lloyd Dupont]

7 hours ago, Diana Probst said:

If you want to do basic maps then https://dungeonmapdoodler.com/draw/ is worth a look

Studied that a bit more at home.. yes it use raster / bitmap graphics!
(much easier than the vector version I was trying, but good enough to fool a human)
Maybe I should do that too... 😕 

The usability is excellent by the way, just like I wanted my app to be! 😮 

[Diana Probst]

9 hours ago, Lloyd Dupont said:

😰

I wonder if they do raster graphics though.. would be easier...but then, how do they do the nice boundary hey?

*drinks your tears*

I think you can upload raster graphics with a stamp (see 'new') but I haven't actually tried.

I think the background is a layer, and then the shapes you apply are solid in the middle (corridors/rooms) and apply a transparency map to the page outside ('drawing' the hatching.  Beyond that?  Magic.

[Diana Probst]

7 hours ago, GMKen said:

..Profit-sharing doesn’t work because there’s no good way to really verify the numbers to ensure you’re getting proper payment.  Too easy to cook the books.  Trust me [no, don’t], I worked in banking and finance for two decades, cooking the books on something like that would be child’s play.  I’m not comfortable with that, so I have to insist on clear legal title for a commercial publication.  It’s just the proper way to do it.

You SAY that... but in fact, there is, sort of.  Drivethru RP allows you to split royalties.  I had meant royalty share, so yes, you cannot guarantee profit share, but you can do a royalty share right from the start.  Once you've given it out, you can't give it back, so it you're happy with a split right from the start, then that can work.  It's how Beer With Teeth handle things, because it reduces complexity, means we don't even HAVE to trust each other, and gives us money right into our Drivethru accounts.

I'm going to note that if you do do royalty sharing, you need to trust that there will be an end book to share the profits IN.  So far, I haven't been in any projects that have failed to create one, though.

Edited December 17, 2020 by Diana Probst
added caveat

[Diana Probst]

9 hours ago, Lloyd Dupont said:

I mean I am not quite sure what they do.. but I tried to do that eraser / merge with a vector graphic and the maths are killing me!  

Vectors are the reason I learned C++ by accident.  I kid you not.

I'd start by looking at how Inkscape does its booleans.  That's likely to be open source, and if not, there is definitely at least one plug-in that does it - you can use a shape on your top layer to cut through all the layers beneath it, in one add-on I remember.  This maths WILL have been done already.  You just need to find it.

[Diana Probst]

On 12/7/2020 at 4:53 AM, GMKen said:

So I’ve been putting together some scenarios for my upcoming Balazar campaign, thinks like a tomb of a Votanki chaos fighter, a 2nd age troll raiding outpost, an aerie where might be found the wings of Trilus, that sort of thing.  I decided to get a bit ambitious and started thinking about submitting them for the Jonstown Compendium to share with others.

Small notes:

If you are on Facebook but not on the Jonstown Compendium Creators' Circle, look for it and join.

Make sure you have an Affiliate link - you add your affiliate ID to the end of the URL.  That way, when you give that out, you get a bit of extra money when people who have used it buy at DTRPG.  Beer With Teeth use that extra money for group expenses like layout software, paying for fonts, and potentially our volcano island base which we have planned for the future.  It's a handy little extra, and the money coming in from it is used to make our works better, but it could also be used to buy useful life things.  Money is great like that.

[Lloyd Dupont]

1 hour ago, Diana Probst said:

I'd start by looking at how Inkscape does its booleans.  That's likely to be open source, and if not, there is definitely at least one plug-in that does it - you can use a shape on your top layer to cut through all the layers beneath it, in one add-on I remember.  This maths WILL have been done already.  You just need to find it.

polygon - polygin intersection is known math....

But shape-shape (with bezier curve) is still an open problem, I think... 😕 
But that stimulated me, gonna give another look.... what's 6 more months hey?! 😛 

Edited December 17, 2020 by Lloyd Dupont

[Nick Brooke]

11 hours ago, GMKen said:

I do want to be clear that I will either be paying for the work of art or the right to use it in my work.  Profit-sharing doesn’t work because there’s no good way to really verify the numbers to ensure you’re getting proper payment.  Too easy to cook the books.

OK, just so you know: you can direct a share of royalties you receive from any Jonstown Compendium book to any other DriveThruRPG user. It happens automatically, behind the scenes; the recipient can see total sales and revenues from that product, as well as the sales on which they received a cut, which reduces your scope for fiddling.

If you've thought of a clever way to break that, please email me and I'll share your concerns with the relevant folk on both sides. But unless you're worried about DriveThru cooking the books, you might find it an attractive option.

(I don't have anything against paying artists up front, it's just nice to know you have other options)