The Cradle

[davecake]

So yesterday, after wanting to do it for 30 years, and after at least twice as many sessions as we thought it would took, I finally finished running The Cradle scenario from the original Pavis boxed set. 

I changed it a fair bit - my PCs were originally from an RQ3 campaign, that also had a lot of community and house and playtest rules added over the years, and we hadn't played the characters in so long it seemed the right thing to do to convert them all to RQG (and then, of course, I had to convert all the enemy stats as well). They were all pretty tough - my party included a Sword of Humakt, a Wind Lord, a Storm Voice, as well as a Lhankor Mhy Sage and a Lanbril Master Thief, with even the latter two being weapon masters, and generally most with a bunch of magic point storage, etc. I added encounters with various powerful known NPCs into it - for example, in addition to the Hoplites and other troops described in the text, the assault at Pavis was led by Radak the Iron Centurion, the assault by the Sun Domers led by as Invictus and Belvani, the third assault at Corflu by Hucipetes commander of the Marble Phalanx, and the final climax featured the Coders trying to stop Garrath (and played roughly as described in MOBs recount of events, barring Garrath taking rather more of the credit in the 'official' version of events, as he tends to do). I also beefed up a lot of encounters with added magical attacks, spirits, Lunar elementals and demons - though they also had some known NPCs as allies (including Griselda and her crew), not that it helped them much.  The end result was a very satisfying epic. 

I played it all out blow by blow, opponent by opponent, in true old school classic RQ2 style. I wouldn't do that if I was to try to play out a similar event again, I think - I'd make a lot more use of things like the Battle rules and abstract it a bit more. But part of the point was to do the Cradle, so we did it the hard way. But instead my PCs chewed their way through literally dozens of hoplites and other enemies, in gritty excruciating detail. 

Surprisingly, no fatalities! Though in two cases only due to lucky Divine Intervention rolls. 

It was in addition to my normal campaign, though with a large player overlap, and run as full day sessions, which made it difficult to organise (it was conceived as a special occasion thing) so there were weeks or months between sessions, and it took us more or less all year to finish it - we started in person, had to switch to online only during lockdown, and finished in person (but for the one player who has moved cities since we started, who joined remotely).

It also served as a really very thorough test of running powerful high level combats using the RQG system! I learnt a lot about how combat functions at high power levels. 

And now we contemplate future high powered play sessions, this time for the same group but with a level of wealth that is beyond anything previously contemplated, as they left the Cradle with armfuls of gold. 

 

 

 

 

[davecake]

A few observations on high powered combat:

• In combat between high level combatants in RQG, almost everyone is effectively well over 100%, often very far above 100%, and so the first step in any combat action tends to be working out just how much their parry/dodge is reduced. I routinely saw things like 180% attack vs 150% parry, so parry at 70%. 
• Even in just elite military, an attack chance above 100% is routine, just even elite troops it tends to only be the attack (due to Morale, Fanaticism, etc). 
• There is a strong general tendency for everyones attack % to be higher than their parry %, as magic that increases attack is much easier to get. The only people who seem to have a realistic chance of having a parry close to their attack are Humakti (and Yanafals Tarnils) who have access to the Parry spell, and they tend to have a higher sword skill than shield, so sometimes would give up on parrying with their shields when fighting opponents of high skill. 
• Hoplite tactics actually work very well, and even the most high powered characters find it hard to break through. The RQG hoplite rule seem to give a good feel. It was also effective because it didn't rely on being able to parry, just on passive shielding enough locations, because parry was quite unreliable - breaking a shield wall so they had to use their parry made a big difference. 
• Work well, that is, until my PCs worked out that, if you are a hyper-competent, well defended, fighter that thoroughly outclasses your opponent and can withstand a couple of Firebladed spear attacks, and has a chance to hit so high that you still often hit at half chance, then waiting until the end of the round and doing an aimed blow to the head was a very effective tactic.  I kind of like this - hoplites (or Yelmalion phalanxes even more so) are very effective against most normal troops, but fall like scythed wheat to Rune Lord types, which seems fair.
• Lunar combat magic is brutally effective - Mindblast is a single shot take down, and in practice may even be more effective than Sever Spirit in some ways (if you killed them, they can be resurrected, but Mindblast can't be dispelled). Lunar elementals Madness effect even more so - but rules clarifications indicate it can not be stopped by Countermagic! 
• My players did work out a partial response to Mindblast though - Restore INT will lift their INT above 0, leaving them a lumbering idiot but one that can still hit things. I'd never thought of that before. 
• As written, Woad is very very useful in prolonged battles except for one problem - if you are fighting Solar pantheon types, Woad might as well be a big blue sign saying "Sunspear Me", as the target has no armour effectively and it's almost impossible to survive. 
• RQ2 and large RQG critters are comparitively quite fragile  - not just in a general 'game balance' sort of way, but also in comparison to the damage they deal. Their damage bonus goes up much faster than their hit points. A moment of humour was a wyvern that fumbled, bit itself in the abdomen, and took itself out of the fight with one bite. To make them dangerous, then, most of them have a lot of natural armour, which is quite frustrating. 

[soltakss]

1 hour ago, davecake said:

As written, Woad is very very useful in prolonged battles except for one problem - if you are fighting Solar pantheon types, Woad might as well be a big blue sign saying "Sunspear Me", as the target has no armour effectively and it's almost impossible to survive. 

Doesn't Woad provide armour, though? Surely the APs from Woad protect against Sunspear?

[Kloster]

17 minutes ago, soltakss said:

Doesn't Woad provide armour, though? Surely the APs from Woad protect against Sunspear?

As only 'the thinnest armor' protects against Sunspear, and that someone covered in Woad as no other armor (spells don't count), I'm sure Woad armor would count, but 4D6 to general is a big hit that would require a big Woad enchant to resist.

[Joerg]

Basically, you would save up going woad-clad for a cloudy day, and hope that your supporters have enough Cloud Call to counter the opposing side's Cloud Clear.
Also, for every Sunspear by a priest in golden ceremonial armor, your side will cast a chained Thunderbolt on such characters once the cloud cover is back up again.

Does Absorption work on Sunspears or Thunderbolts? Reflection and Castback both fail on Thunderbolts and Sunspears as there is no POW vs POW contest. and so does any Countermagic effect as the magic happens outside of the target's aura (just like it fails to prevent Fireblade or Firearrow).

 

Did any of your defenders use "Suppress Lodril"? That's a nasty piece of magic if you are facing hoplites or Sun Domers.

[Darius West]

2 hours ago, davecake said:

As written, Woad is very very useful in prolonged battles except for one problem - if you are fighting Solar pantheon types, Woad might as well be a big blue sign saying "Sunspear Me", as the target has no armour effectively and it's almost impossible to survive. 

Unless the rules have changed, I thought that Woad offered both Countermagic and AP, like a shield spell, only with longer duration?  Also, not many Yelmalios qualify to cast Sunspears, in fact I think it might be the High Priest, and that's all.  I doubt many Lunars have access to Sunspear during the Cradle.

2 hours ago, davecake said:

Hoplite tactics actually work very well, and even the most high powered characters find it hard to break through. The RQG hoplite rule seem to give a good feel. It was also effective because it didn't rely on being able to parry, just on passive shielding enough locations, because parry was quite unreliable - breaking a shield wall so they had to use their parry made a big difference. 

Agreed.  They are good rules and they play well.  They are a formation that can turn initiates into slayers of rune lords.

[Godlearner]

We have always played that Protection, Shield and Woad offer actual armor points and a large enough Countermagic, like 8 would stop a Sunspear.

Quote

and hope that your supporters have enough Cloud Call to counter the opposing side's Cloud Clear.

Yeah, that's not good enough. All it takes is a single Yelmalian to cast a Sunbright and Sunspear away.

[Kloster]

3 hours ago, Darius West said:

Unless the rules have changed, I thought that Woad offered both Countermagic and AP, like a shield spell, only with longer duration? 

The rules have not changed on that, but Sunspear is specifically described as not having protection from spells. One more ambiguity, is Woad protection caused by a spell (and offer no protection vs Sunspear) or is simply created by a spell and the result is not a spell (in which case magical protection should count vs Sunspear). I am frankly unable to decide.

[Kloster]

8 hours ago, Joerg said:

Did any of your defenders use "Suppress Lodril"? That's a nasty piece of magic if you are facing hoplites or Sun Domers.

Ooops. I hadn't noticed it. It's a real nasty one vs Yelmalion units, even at low levels.

[soltakss]

6 minutes ago, Kloster said:

The rules have not changed on that, but Sunspear is specifically described as not having protection from spells.

I hadn't noticed that. In that case, Sunspear is a woadwearer-Killer.

[Kloster]

37 minutes ago, soltakss said:

I hadn't noticed that. In that case, Sunspear is a woadwearer-Killer.

Not so, because it's armor count because it is the only you can wear, so is of course the thinnest. But you need Woad with at least 15 point of enchant to have a good effect (damage is 4D6, so average is 14).

[davecake]

On 12/29/2020 at 7:17 PM, soltakss said:

Doesn't Woad provide armour, though? Surely the APs from Woad protect against Sunspear?

It provides magical armour, like a long term Protection, which Sunspear specifically ignores. 

[davecake]

On 12/29/2020 at 8:04 PM, Joerg said:

Did any of your defenders use "Suppress Lodril"?

Nope, well none of the PCs or their allies had the spell. 
of course we know from Prince of Sartar there was at least one Argan Argar defender, but he did not fight with my PCs. 

[Joerg]

Oh well, more thread drift to discussing spell specifics, and sorry about that. But discussing the events in detail would be spoilers for the scenario, and you made a point about using RQG as true to the RAW as possible.

2 hours ago, davecake said:

It provides magical armour, like a long term Protection, which Sunspear specifically ignores. 

The spell description say that woad gives armor and magical protection, not magical armor and protection. The rules lawyer in me says that the enchanted woad is a treasure similar to Rhino Fat, hence allowable against stuff that ignores magical armor. Or would an enchanted Iron plate arnor be useless against a Sunspear?

The magical protection is weirdly different from Countermagic. It discerns between friendly and hostile magic. Does it sense intent?

 

 

[Kloster]

2 hours ago, Joerg said:

The spell description say that woad gives armor and magical protection, not magical armor and protection. The rules lawyer in me says that the enchanted woad is a treasure similar to Rhino Fat, hence allowable against stuff that ignores magical armor. Or would an enchanted Iron plate arnor be useless against a Sunspear?

This is also what I understood. Sunspear counts only the thinnest armor, and ignore spell. Putting Woad is not a spell, so it's protection should count, especially because you can not have another, so woad is automatically the thinnest. Of course, vs 4D6 damage to general HP, that is usually not sufficient.

[PhilHibbs]

6 hours ago, davecake said:

It provides magical armour, like a long term Protection, which Sunspear specifically ignores. 

Sunspear says "spells are ineffective". I'd say enchanted woad is not a spell, and that it would work.

6 hours ago, davecake said:

Nope, well none of the PCs or their allies had the spell. 
of course we know from Prince of Sartar there was at least one Argan Argar defender, but he did not fight with my PCs. 

In which case, we know from Prince of Sartar that the rest of your PCs weren't there either.  The truth is that Prince of Sartar is only one version of the Cradle story. Glorantha is a quantum superposition of all our games, and they are all equally true.

The Argan Argar chap with the hair and the glasses I think was the artist's PC.

Edited December 30, 2020 by PhilHibbs

[PhilHibbs]

If you believe that enchanted woad does not protect against Sunspear, then the increased AP from enchanting iron armour should not count either. They are both spells, and they both enchant a substance to provide AP.

[davecake]

On 12/31/2020 at 5:37 AM, PhilHibbs said:

In which case, we know from Prince of Sartar that the rest of your PCs weren't there either. 

No we don’t, because Prince of Sartar does not attempt to show everyone present (and it’s clear from the scenario there are more involved than shown). But yes, it’s just one version, and all differs. 
in MOBs version of events, Argrath duels Count Julan. In mine, he does not, partly because I had a PC who really wanted to, and partly because it was clear that at the appropriate point Argrath would have his arms full with a giant gold disk. 

[davecake]

Guys, arguing about Sunspear vs woad is fine, but you aren’t arguing with me, but with the official rules clarification about Sunspear

I disagree as well (because I don’t think woad should mean Yelm worshippers will take you out), but that’s a house rule that contradicts the official rules clearly. FWIW, I often disagree with the rules clarifications too - sometimes they seem clearly misguided. 

And removing all the rules clarification threads from the forums so they only appear without their original context, and so I spent several minutes searching for this easy before I realised it had been deleted, extra pointless and annoying. 

[davecake]

3 hours ago, PhilHibbs said:

you believe that enchanted woad does not protect against Sunspear, then the increased AP from enchanting iron armour should not count either.

Meh, you could definitely make the argument that enchant iron doesn’t provide extra armour points, it makes the metal harder and the extra APs are just one of many side effects. If you wanted to justify it. 

[French Desperate WindChild]

On 1/1/2021 at 6:26 PM, davecake said:

but that’s a house rule that contradicts the official rules clearly.

not sure :

Quote

Any spells offering magical armor protection (increasing armor points) are ineffective.

woad does not increase the armor points (you already have), it gives you the only amor points you will have 😛

but I agree with all your posts (in this thread) and thanks to have shared this experience

[PhilHibbs]

2 hours ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

woad does not increase the armor points (you already have), it gives you the only amor points you will have

Could a creature with natural skin armour wear woad?

[Kloster]

18 minutes ago, PhilHibbs said:

Could a creature with natural skin armour wear woad?

Of course. You can't wear other armor, but natural armor is not worn.

[French Desperate WindChild]

9 hours ago, PhilHibbs said:

Could a creature with natural skin armour wear woad?

from a GP perspective,  I consider that woad is efficient against sunspear, and it can be cumaltive with skin protection (that could be a question, what is the protection if you have skin AP and a leather one, my answer is addition) that's all

take all the rest I said as second degree

from an RP perspective, of course you can, because skin is not an armour, just a part of your living body. So by simplicity we use the same mechanic AP, but it is not an armour, it is not a magical protection. 

Philosophers try to explain why and when, if you wear some living protection on your body,like jellyfish or just other people, the sunspear  can wound you or not.

A very famous one, lady gigi, tryed to wear a fresh flesh dress to resist sunspear. The experience was not like expected... She stoped magical studies to became a strange singer in Wenelia; I m not sure it enlightens sunspear vs woad mechanics but I cannot keep silence on this

 

[Joerg]

3 hours ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

A very famous one, lady gigi, tryed to wear a fresh flesh dress to resist sunspear. The experience was not like expected... She stoped magical studies to became a strange singer in Wenelia; I m not sure it enlightens sunspear vs woad mechanics but I cannot keep silence on this

Well done...