Lhankor Mhy & Cult Lore

[Shiningbrow]

So, in another thread (starting a cult), it was suggested that the PC could ask the sages about the god they were interested in. I think it's also been suggested to ask the sages about information relating to Heroquests (and, thus, myths).

 

So... Does Lhankor Mhy have access to all Cult Lore skills? Shouldn't they actually be secrets?

If a Lhankoring joins another cult, wouldn't they be obliged to pass along the secrets to the library? (Presumably, incurring the wrath of the first God)

[Scorus]

I don't think they would be obliged, but they might do it.

It is tough to keep a secret, especially when it is only known to a couple of thousand people! So you could expect to see lots of interesting cult lore in a large library (and information on secret clan and tribal rituals, etc.). That said, it would all be at least second hand and coming from lesser cult figures, so I wouldn't expect any of it to be 100% accurate. There would be clues, contradictory information, inferences, and just plain wrong guesses!

So there wouldn't be enough information to duplicate an important heroquest, but there might be enough to mess one up!

[soltakss]

3 hours ago, Shiningbrow said:

Does Lhankor Mhy have access to all Cult Lore skills?

Some Cults, but not all.

3 hours ago, Shiningbrow said:

Shouldn't they actually be secrets?

It depends, really. Knowledge about another cult is just knowledge. So, you could know that Orlanth did the Lightbringer Quest, killed Yelm and gained various magic weapons, that is just knowledge. As a Lhankor Mhy cultists you probably wouldn't know all the intricate details of each of those myths and how they work as HeroQuests, that kind of thing is an Orlanthi cult secret.

In my Glorantha, knowing about something and experiencing it are different things. So, you might know all the steps of a HeroQuest, for example, but unless you performed the HeroQuest, with the right mythical cult training, you won't have experienced it and wouldn't have a deep understanding. That is the difference between Lore and Cult Lore, in my opinion, Lhankhor Mhy might have Lore (Orlanth) but not necessarily Cult Lore (Orlanth).

3 hours ago, Shiningbrow said:

If a Lhankoring joins another cult, wouldn't they be obliged to pass along the secrets to the library?

Most initiates are sworn to secrecy about their cult knowledge, as part of initiation.

Sharing some things with Lhankor Mhy are probably fine, sharing others is probably not allowed.

[Shiningbrow]

1 hour ago, soltakss said:

That is the difference between Lore and Cult Lore, in my opinion, Lhankhor Mhy might have Lore (Orlanth) but not necessarily Cult Lore (Orlanth).

👍

[French Desperate WindChild]

2 hours ago, soltakss said:

In my Glorantha, knowing about something and experiencing it are different things. So, you might know all the steps of a HeroQuest, for example, but unless you performed the HeroQuest, with the right mythical cult training, you won't have experienced it and wouldn't have a deep understanding. That is the difference between Lore and Cult Lore, in my opinion, Lhankhor Mhy might have Lore (Orlanth) but not necessarily Cult Lore (Orlanth).

that s a very interesting perspective. i would say (after incorportation,  thanks a lot! )that there is one "game play" cult lore but what you can obtain of this lore is different :

- you are initiate of Orlanth, you have experienced (very nice word, sir) the knowledge in several ceremonies.

- You are initiate of LM (or.. other, but not Orlanth), you know the same things, you can tell the same story, mystery, but you are unable to fully feel / live this knowledge.

Will see the heroquesting rules (if there is a topic about this part, I hope so) but I would use the cult lore with a malus (-40 ? -20 ?) for non initiate people

 

2 hours ago, soltakss said:

Most initiates are sworn to secrecy about their cult knowledge, as part of initiation.

Sharing some things with Lhankor Mhy are probably fine, sharing others is probably not allowed.

the issue then is that a "double" initiate (LM + Other) is torn between the secret obligation and the knowledge accumulation obligation.

Maybe the truth that "knowing and experiencing are different things" imply that associated / friendly cults allow their initiates to share the knowledge, after all the link with the god is not shared because you read a scroll, you must be initiate to "feel" deeply your god.

[Psullie]

I may be wrong, but I was under the impression that each LM college was very protective of its secrets, that there isn't a LM online repository of knowledge accessible to all priests. In this example, the initiate may be viewed as a having a conflict of interest and would find advancement challenging.

[soltakss]

2 hours ago, Psullie said:

I was under the impression that each LM college was very protective of its secrets

Yes, each temple is separate and possessive of its secrets. Even inside temples, some groups are possessive and actively make things harder for other worshippers to gain their knowledge. Lhankor Mhy has the Stasis Rune, after all.

2 hours ago, Psullie said:

that there isn't a LM online repository of knowledge accessible to all priests

In my Glorantha, Lhankor Mhy cultists can copy scrolls and books so that they are stored in Lhankor Mhy's Ivory Tower, thus making them available to everyone who can access that knowledge. It is not every book in a Lhankor Mhy Temple and even those scrolls copied are not always easy accessible. Some Lhankor Mhy HeroQuests involve visiting the Ivory Tower and finding a particular scroll, then returning with a copy of that scroll.

2 hours ago, Psullie said:

In this example, the initiate may be viewed as a having a conflict of interest and would find advancement challenging.

Certainly, a conflict of interest if their Priest tells them to find out about the Orlanth cult and record what they find in the archives.

But generally Lhankor Mhy and Orlanth get on and it would be fine to be in both. The Sword Sages would happily co-exist in Lhankor Mhy and Orlanth, for example.

[jajagappa]

7 minutes ago, soltakss said:

Even inside temples, some groups are possessive and actively make things harder for other worshippers to gain their knowledge.

A good example is the Nochet Temple of Knowledge which actually has SIX distinct, competing "schools" within its confines and they very jealously guard their secret wisdom and knowledge from each other.  It takes the Chief Librarian sometimes to enforce access to one group's specific library.

[French Desperate WindChild]

3 minutes ago, jajagappa said:

A good example is the Nochet Temple of Knowledge which actually has SIX distinct, competing "schools" within its confines and they very jealously guard their secret wisdom and knowledge from each other.  It takes the Chief Librarian sometimes to enforce access to one group's specific library.

Do you have any resource to explore this point ? that seems very interesting

[jajagappa]

24 minutes ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

Do you have any resource to explore this point ? that seems very interesting

See the brief note in this older thread, but there are six divisions:  Charterists (who wear white), Grey Sages, Green Sages, Purple Sages, Black Philosophers, Blue Philosophers.

 

 

[Godlearner]

Quote

Does Lhankor Mhy have access to all Cult Lore skills? 

I would say no, but there is a case to be made for Buserian (although only to the Gods on the Wall perhaps)

[Shiningbrow]

13 hours ago, jajagappa said:

See the brief note in this older thread, but there are six divisions:  Charterists (who wear white), Grey Sages, Green Sages, Purple Sages, Black Philosophers, Blue Philosophers.

Are they just factions? Or sub-cults?

Any more specific information on them? Currently, all I've read is - we wear different colours and have an attitude about sorcery.

[David Scott]

8 hours ago, Shiningbrow said:

Are they just factions? Or sub-cults?

The link says Schools.

8 hours ago, Shiningbrow said:

Any more specific information on them? Currently, all I've read is - we wear different colours and have an attitude about sorcery.

As @jajagappa's  link says, they have different areas of expertise.

Think of them like historically established universities (like Oxbridge in the UK) with their different colleges, each with their own areas of expertise, rivalry and traditions.

Don't forget that we also have other groupings, Completionists who collect and study foreign writings (including sorcery), and Ivalists who destroy all sorcerous writings, plus those who destroy the most dangerous sorcery but study that which is not tainted by Gbaji. See  Sartar, Kingdom of Heroes page 163 or HQG page 176.

@jajagappa are The Charterists, Ivalists (or is it just a local name for the same movement)?

 

[jajagappa]

 

3 hours ago, David Scott said:

As @jajagappa's  link says, they have different areas of expertise.

Think of them like historically established universities (like Oxbridge in the UK) with their different colleges, each with their own areas of expertise, rivalry and traditions.

That is likely the best way to look at them.  Within the great Temple of Knowledge complex, they generally have their own buildings, libraries, etc. (but still all within the great ancient walls that form the rune of Truth within Nochet). 

3 hours ago, David Scott said:

Don't forget that we also have other groupings, Completionists who collect and study foreign writings (including sorcery), and Ivalists who destroy all sorcerous writings, plus those who destroy the most dangerous sorcery but study that which is not tainted by Gbaji.

These groupings likely represent particular "attitudes" within many of the schools.  

3 hours ago, David Scott said:

are The Charterists, Ivalists (or is it just a local name for the same movement)?

I suspect the Charterists are also Ivalists as they do not encourage or incorporate the study of sorcery.  They are named for the Charter of Nochet, and are the experts on the records of the city.  Notes indicate that they claim to be the oldest and original temple. They have the largest scriptorium and maintain most of the records of the palace going back to the First Age. 

Every important House in Nochet wants a husband or son-in-law who has studied with the Charterists.  They are the white-robed scribes you see everywhere, but they record everything - all the important marriages, business and trade contracts, tribute paid to temples, etc.  And copies of all of those documents are kept in their library.  I picture great ancient storerooms in the basements housing the ancient clay tablets that were originally used.  Sometimes the scribes practice tablets get mixed up among them.  

The Grey Lords are the specialists in the Elder Races and on Dragon Pass.  Those are usually the ones found in Jonstown or Pavis.

The group who do not have any school or building in Nochet are, of course, the Brown Men - the scholars of Irrippi Ontor.  They have had a periodic presence though, and likely there are still some in the city.

12 hours ago, Shiningbrow said:

Currently, all I've read is - we wear different colours and have an attitude about sorcery.

Specialities of knowledge is at the forefront.  The Black Philosophers specialize in Underworld lore, but also have a strong sorcerous tradition.  The Blue Philosophers were originally emigrants from Slontos - basically heirs of the Middle Sea Empire and its knowledge.  They also know sorcery and have a lot of knowledge about other lands.  Alchemists are prominent among both of those two groups, too, and maintain strict control over the Perfumed Houses.

The Purple Sages were founded by Belintar.  They are the heirs of the Final Information Library from the City of Wonders - if works were brought out before or during the sack of the city by Harrek, these are the folk who did that.  Undoubtedly they are among those searching for Belintar's remains, trying to reconstruct what happened, and getting killed off by Lunar assassins and demons.

I believe that the Grey Lords and Blue Philosophers are favored by merchant families due to their knowledge of other lands (the latter particularly by the sea captains).  The Black Philosophers are clearly skilled in understanding and dealing with the trolls of the Shadow Plateau.  The Charterists are likely the most skilled in Lawspeaking.

Edited February 13, 2021 by jajagappa

[jajagappa]

On 2/12/2021 at 8:42 AM, soltakss said:

Some Lhankor Mhy HeroQuests involve visiting the Ivory Tower and finding a particular scroll, then returning with a copy of that scroll.

In one of my games, the PC's escaped the Otherworld by finding the Ivory Tower amidst the Fog of Ignorance.  They stopped a Lunar assault upon the tower, gained admittance to the Tower, and then found that the passageways amid the stacks of scrolls eventually led them back into one of the mundane world temples. 

[Shiningbrow]

Very interesting...

Any ideas if this will fit the GaGoG? Or Notchet book, especially relating to character creation? Especially the Blue or Black, as it sounds like they'd have and use much more than Torvalds Fragments... And, of course, skills required for advancement (rather than generic, specific Lores).

[soltakss]

18 hours ago, jajagappa said:

In one of my games, the PC's escaped the Otherworld by finding the Ivory Tower amidst the Fog of Ignorance.  They stopped a Lunar assault upon the tower, gained admittance to the Tower, and then found that the passageways amid the stacks of scrolls eventually led them back into one of the mundane world temples. 

Excellent!

I have a Magic Road HeroQuest that involves starting at a Library, going to the Ivory Tower and exiting in another Library. 

You have done the same, except started in the Otherworld.

[jajagappa]

11 hours ago, Shiningbrow said:

Any ideas if this will fit the GaGoG?

I do not expect this level to be discussed in GoG.

11 hours ago, Shiningbrow said:

Or Notchet book, especially relating to character creation? Especially the Blue or Black, as it sounds like they'd have and use much more than Torvalds Fragments... And, of course, skills required for advancement (rather than generic, specific Lores).

Potentially, but we'll have to wait and see on that.