Backford Aeolian Campaign

[Erol of Backford]

This is great stuff and one of the reasons I love Glorantha. Its like its an alive/living, changing world which archeology sometimes modifies the known/perceived history.

The idea that all Aeolians fight is perfect for the campaign as the Aeolian PC's not only have but also, need to be the role models, setting the example for the overall population. It pushes the PC's to be exceptional, as what is expected.

Along the same lines the caste system being open for those who work hard and progress, explains, adds flavor to the PC's backgrounds, working their way up from being farmers, herders, fishermen, etc. and so I will run with that as the PC's mostly come from the lot 60,000 rural peasants in Malkonwal, it simple to picture. I just have the PC's congregating in Backford, as my Glorantha varies... but Backford does, to me seem to be part of Malkonwal or at the northern border of it come 1617...

From Jeff's earlier posts there are about 100k Aeolians south of the Syphon (I think I have this right with some 1500 in Nochet) with that there would be about 1000 higher level rune level/wizard types? Scott, that's me guessing the number from Jeff's earlier posts... link below.

Depending on the city/town (The most important settlements of the Esvularings are Mount Passant and Refuge. Durengard, Vizel, and Leskos are also significant urban centers for the Esvularings.) Again Backford is important (to me) maybe as an outpost type border town for Malkonwal? So at most 5% of the higher level NPS would be there or the neighboring towns and villages. There would be several in Bullpen, some down on the coast, so really about 25 or so directly in Backford? That's sizable, again this is if the 1 to 100 is roughly correct of the 100k Aeolians... 30% in Passant, 20% Durengard, with another 40% spread amongst Leskos, Vizel, Duchamp and Refuge. The remainder "are scattered in the County of the Isles, in God Forgot, the Left Arm Islands, Hendrikiland, and in Nochet."

Jeff's earlier post:

So the Esvulari are centered at Mt. Passant: Mount Passant (large city): The largest settlement of the Esvularing people was built with the aid of Belintar after the old capital, Bensval, was razed. It has the largest Aeolian temple in the Holy Country. (If I have any patron saints, Tales 13, in the campaign they'd have shrines in the cathedral there...)

The Kitori were ousted but may I assume the Oshanti, Vandarland and Gardufar get absorbed into Malkonwal?

There is the time gap from 1571 ~ 1616 that has me perplexed. If there is another post on this, on the TBT, time before "Tigger" but after 1571 please send me there!

Thank you all once again for the great input!

 

Edited November 22, 2021 by Erol of Backford

[Alex]

23 minutes ago, Richard S. said:

Checking RQG, it does describe them as just having wizards, nobles, and commoners, the latter two of which don't practice sorcery. I doubt there's much Hrestoli influence in them, considering they seem to have been in Heortland since the dawn.

That doesn't mean they're unchanged in their religious practice since the Dawn, though!  They've explicitly switched from being atheists to henotheists, and given the successive bouts of Malkioni influence, they may have wiggled a fair bit either side of that, too.

Apparently though, all non-Brithini are "Hrestoli".  But your amount of "Idealism" may vary...

[Erol of Backford]

Wait, am I totally wrong in thinking the Esvulari are all Aeolians?! Again the stuff in Tradetalk 12 by Mark and Greg may have been changed but they are calleded the children of St. Aeol!?

[Alex]

Just now, Erol of Backford said:

Wait, am I totally wrong in thinking the Esvulari are all Aeolians?! Again the stuff in Tradetalk 12 by Mark and Greg may have been changed but they are calleded the children of St. Aeol!?

Oh what a tangled terminology web we weave, whenever we stick a toe into Glorantha. 🙂

I think the two terms are more or less synonymous in practice, the derivation of one being a toponym, and the other a religious handle.  But, to confuse matters...

• The "common" caste are often pretty much standard Orlanthi, or at least might as well be if you were a myopic person in a rush;
• There's two different sub-regions, one centred on the Bandori River, one centred on the Vulari peninsula.  So some references to "Esvulari" or "Esvularings" seem to be to the latter specifically, rather than everyone Aeolian-leaning.  From the maps it's unclear if there's two different dynasties in charge at different times, two subtly different subcultures, if the two are synonymous, or two distinct subregions, essentially boiling down to "Pewthy, who's talar?"  I think @jajagappa who is wise in such matters was suggesting something closer to the last of those, but it might be any combination of them, for all I know.
• Given that the borders change over time, but there was an enforced peace and top-down administration under the the Pha--t-headed demigod guy, I'd bet money there were at least some "orthodox" Orlanthi, without allegiance to any talar, geographically intermingled with the Aeolians proper.

[Jeff]

18 minutes ago, Erol of Backford said:

Wait, am I totally wrong in thinking the Esvulari are all Aeolians?! Again the stuff in Tradetalk 12 by Mark and Greg may have been changed but they are calleded the children of St. Aeol!?

The writeup in Tradetalk 12 is totally noncanonical and Greg and I didn't even refer to it for the Guide. 

[Jeff]

1 minute ago, Alex said:

Oh what a tangled terminology web we weave, whenever we stick a toe into Glorantha. 🙂

I think the two terms are more or less synonymous in practice, the derivation of one being a toponym, and the other a religious handle.  But, to confuse matters...

• The "common" caste are often pretty much standard Orlanthi, or at least might as well be if you were a myopic person in a rush;
• There's two different sub-regions, one centred on the Bandori River, one centred on the Vulari peninsula.  So some references to "Esvulari" or "Esvularings" seem to be to the latter specifically, rather than everyone Aeolian-leaning.  From the maps it's unclear if there's two different dynasties in charge at different times, two subtly different subcultures, if the two are synonymous, or two distinct subregions, essentially boiling down to "Pewthy, who's talar?"  I think @jajagappa who is wise in such matters was suggesting something closer to the last of those, but it might be any combination of them, for all I know.
• Given that the borders change over time, but there was an enforced peace and top-down administration under the the Pha--t-headed demigod guy, I'd bet money there were at least some "orthodox" Orlanthi, without allegiance to any talar, geographically intermingled with the Aeolians proper.

It is only complicated when you try to reconcile years of fan publications and discussions. Start with the Guide and go forward.

[jajagappa]

7 hours ago, Richard S. said:

Actually, don't Aeolians combine Horali and Talar into the same caste basically?

Combine the Horali and the Dronari - the two lower groups.  And allow them to worship the "lesser" emanations of the Invisible God (e.g. the war gods, the gods of earth and hearth and beasts, etc.)

6 hours ago, Richard S. said:

Checking RQG, it does describe them as just having wizards, nobles, and commoners, the latter two of which don't practice sorcery. I doubt there's much Hrestoli influence in them

To all practical purposes, the Aeolian commoners are like any other Heortlings and worship the gods, but... they still provide their support to their talars and wizard-priests for their communities are blessed by the presence of those castes including receiving the blessings of the Invisible God.

7 hours ago, Richard S. said:

Wizard-priests who simultaneously learn sorcery and sacrifice to Orlanth, a typical noble warrior class of chieftains and thanes who worship Orlanth normally, and a general "everyone else".

The wizard-priests would focus on the Invisible God, and only learn sorcery.  The nobles/thanes would see themselves as descendants of Orlanth and Ernalda and their families.

1 hour ago, Richard S. said:

Jeff's FB notes suggest it's closer to 1500 or slightly less people with sorcery training, though of course not all of those may be considered proper wizards.

Those would be the wizard-priest caste, and as Jeff has previously noted, both that and the talar caste are endogamous. 

[Alex]

1 hour ago, Richard S. said:

Jeff's FB notes suggest it's closer to 1500 or slightly less people with sorcery training, though of course not all of those may be considered proper wizards.

Well, if you ask the Brithini, then exactly none of them are "proper wizards". 🙂  But in Aeolian caste terms, surely the vast majority of these are of the priest/wizard/zzaburi caste?

2 hours ago, scott-martin said:

IMG this remains an unsettled question of history. For purposes of both art and expediency, I want to believe that this may be the most ancient surviving mortal caste expression left on the lozenge . . . maybe even the original Malkonwal settled after the Expulsion if you believe the local street prophets.

Personally, and I appreciate this annoys the heck out of some people who want everything like this to be definitively settled, I kinda like it this way.  The actual history is presumably pretty murky.  Just ask two RW historians about things that happened 100 years ago, much less 1600, and yet three opinions (and watch the fur fly in many cases).  You have of course prove which version is magically correct...  but often multiple different cultures can prove contradictory results.  Unless it all ends in heroquesting tears when one utterly crushes the other.  But ignoring the admittedly related question of when the henotheism begins -- or resumes! -- and how that relates to the Orlanthi substrate, the hereditary three-caste model makes as much sense as any of the other Malkioni ones...  and more than some!  (Those Rokari.  I mean, really!)  So they may plausibly maintain on the one hand that it's the original, or acknowledge that it's changed from a hereditary four-caste one, but argue that's still the more faithful take than any of the other weird heretics.

[Alex]

17 minutes ago, Jeff said:

It is only complicated when you try to reconcile years of fan publications and discussions. Start with the Guide and go forward.

I promise I got confused without reference in years -- possible closing in on decades! -- to TT#12, so I may need to ignore or forget still more stuff.  Or drink a great deal more tea.

[jajagappa]

33 minutes ago, Erol of Backford said:

Along the same lines the caste system being open for those who work hard and progress, explains, adds flavor to the PC's backgrounds, working their way up from being farmers, herders, fishermen, etc. and so I will run with that as the PC's mostly come from the lot 60,000 rural peasants in Malkonwal, it simple to picture.

The Aeolian caste system is not open - the castes are endogamous, they only marry within their caste. 

However, there may be some Hrestoli who arrived in Heortland with King Rikard in 1617, and may still exist after their defeat by the Lunars.  Whether they are friendly with or accepted by the Aeolians at this point, might be another question - or perhaps they've just integrated into the Aeolian caste system (some "new" and "acceptable" blood within the caste restrictions).

35 minutes ago, Erol of Backford said:

Backford does, to me seem to be part of Malkonwal or at the northern border of it come 1617...

Yes, Backford and the Syphon River mark roughly the divide during the Civil War in Heortland between King Broyan and King Rikard.

37 minutes ago, Erol of Backford said:

with that there would be about 1000 higher level rune level/wizard types? Scott, that's me guessing the number from Jeff's earlier posts

About 1500 of the zzaburi caste (wizard-priests).  About 2500 of the talar caste.  And about 75k total who would consider themselves Aeolian/Esvulari (and including the Bandori).

39 minutes ago, Erol of Backford said:

Depending on the city/town (The most important settlements of the Esvularings are Mount Passant and Refuge. Durengard, Vizel, and Leskos are also significant urban centers for the Esvularings.) Again Backford is important (to me) maybe as an outpost type border town for Malkonwal? So at most 5% of the higher level NPS would be there or the neighboring towns and villages. There would be several in Bullpen, some down on the coast, so really about 25 or so directly in Backford?

Mount Passant and Refuge are the centers of Aeolian/Esvulari culture. 

Durengard and Leskos (with the latter being effectively the sea-faring port of Durengard) were at the center of Belintar's focus in Heortland, and so you'll find both Aeolian and traditional Heortling.  Duchamp and Vizel are more Aeolian.  Backford would be in the midst of Heortling lands, but loyal to Belintar and his Governor.

42 minutes ago, Erol of Backford said:

The Kitori were ousted but may I assume the Oshanti, Vandarland and Gardufar get absorbed into Malkonwal?

The Kitori were only a presence in Volsaxiland in the north, and were defeated by Tarkalor and driven back into the Troll/Kitori Woods. 

Absorbed is not really the right word.  With Belintar's demise and Governor Orngerin's death in 1617, King Broyan gained the support of the Volsaxi tribes as well as many of the Hendriki clans.  At the same time, Rikard's arrival in Durengard, gave the loyal supporters of the God-king someone they could pledge support to, and Rikard proclaimed the Kingdom of Malkonwal.  Strong support (i.e. tribute) from Esvular and good support in Gardufar and up to Backford - but opposition in the east from the Storm Bulls centered on Bullflood.  Rikard defeated the Storm Bulls, and largely controlled the lands south of Backford. 

When the Lunars invaded in 1620, and Rikard was defeated (and disappeared), Malkonwal ceased to exist.  The Lunar army controlled Heortland effectively to Durengard, and received tribute from Mount Passant and the Esvulari villages.  Bandori Valley and Refuge remained outside Lunar control, probably with the nominal help of the Brithini in Refuge.

The Orshanti are centered around Jansholm.  Probably supported Broyan, but perhaps were powerful enough to have thoughts of expanding their influence?

[jajagappa]

51 minutes ago, Erol of Backford said:

There is the time gap from 1571 ~ 1616 that has me perplexed. If there is another post on this, on the TBT, time before "Tigger" but after 1571 please send me there!

1571 more or less marks the end of Kitori influence in Volsaxiland with Tarkalor's victories.  Tarkalor proceeds to extend the Royal Road south and effectively gains control of the trade from Karse to Whitewall to Boldhome.

With the Opening beginning in 1580, trade from the seas finds its way to Karse and north, as well as from Nochet to Karse and north. 

Both Belintar and Sartar benefit from the trade, and of course that also attracts Lunar attention.  Missionaries and assassins and merchants from the Empire work their way south, and probably find their way at least to Durengard to trade with Belintar's Governor there.  Of course, the Lunars conquer Sartar in 1602 so north-bound trade is now directly benefiting the Empire.

In 1605, the Lunars attempt an invasion of the Holy Country.  There is a feint to the sea to take Karse, which fails.  And a major invasion of Esrolia which is destroyed by Belintar at the Building Wall battle.

For the next decade, Heortland is largely peaceful.  Belintar rules, his Governor extends Belintar's blessings, and trade is good.  Then in 1616 disaster strikes.  Belintar dies and does not return.  The Tournament of Luck and Death fails.  Harrek and the Wolf Pirates arrive.  In 1617, Governor Orngerin dies (possibly in the failed tournament, possibly killed in other magical rituals associated with Heortland).  Broyan is acclaimed High King of the Volsaxings by proving he has returned with the Sword and Helm and is the direct descendant of Kodig VIngkotsson.  And Rikard arrives in Durengard seeking to refashion Malkonwal.

And that's pretty much that time period.

[Alex]

6 minutes ago, jajagappa said:

1571 more or less marks the end of Kitori influence in Volsaxiland with Tarkalor's victories.  Tarkalor proceeds to extend the Royal Road south and effectively gains control of the trade from Karse to Whitewall to Boldhome.

So am I even approximately right in thinking that the "missing" map (1570-1617) looks a little like:-

• Crossline to Marzeel:  Volsaxiland;
• Marzeel to Bullflood (or else to the Syphon, depending who you ask when):  Vandarland;
• Above to Minthos:  Gardufar;
• Minthos to Bandori:  Esvular (and/or "Bandori tribe").

[Alex]

20 hours ago, jajagappa said:

It's a precedent.  But you need the right regalia.  And with Wolf Pirates busily raiding - you may have to get creative to find/retrieve (maybe time to open up those old barrows???).

Yup, if you can't find the right regalia for the precedent you had, find the right precedent for the regalia you have -- or can get your grubbies on...

20 hours ago, jajagappa said:

Belintar's gone, the Lunar army is gone.  There is no one to appoint such, and nothing to enforce such.  But, there may well be ambitious leaders who can seize power and claim to be "governor" of say Durengard, or another city. 

No Rex rites in Heortland.

Well like I say, now you have Olontongi who, ever if they don't have Rex rites yet, will certainly have obstreperous people pointing out how much better it'd be if they did...   (Now you may object that they're barely even in Volsaxiland, and Volsaxiland is barely in Heortland, and on that I'd have to cop a plea.)

Now possibly this is getting out mere inches ahead of the Canon steamroller, and just begging to be contradicted when the book comes out.  ("Nope, still no Reges!")  More importantly very possibly not what the OP is looking for, if that's essentially just as straightforward a map as possible -- this is more of a way to do the exact opposite, but for me there's potentially good story value out of it.  (I say, having mined similar ideas in my Kultain game, so likely biased!)

If one does want a nice simple map, I'd probably go with the concept of the former provinces as kinda-sorta tribal confederations (again, very ricketty ones, or else utterly non-functional as such), and with "tribes" around the features identified on the Dragon Pass gazetteer map.

20 hours ago, jajagappa said:

Durengard was the center of the God-king's cult though and was where the Governor's Palace was located and the magic bridge from the City of Wonders.  If you look at the map of the magic roads, if you just keep extending from Durengard, you can see the true destination of the magic road: Stormwalk Mountain. 

Interesting.  Presumably you need a Magic Silver Key to get the escalator to continue to the top-storey stop...

At any rate, regardless of the exact respective loyalist concentrations in either, any self-respecting wannabe Archon of Durengard or Chief of Hurlantar (titles made up while you wait!) is going to want to claim, in pretence or otherwise, nearby areas if they're at all of a compatible constituency.  In this sub-region you'll have some moderate-ish levels of loyalists, and be at some middling point in the gradient of Aeolians, as well as having lots of ornery Hendriki (or Orlanthi, misc, at least).  So this is very much the sort of place I'd expect to see some sort of compromise polity start to re-emerge.  Albeit on the "raging success" scale maybe someplace between "work in progress" and "dumpster fire".  

[jajagappa]

54 minutes ago, Alex said:

So am I even approximately right in thinking that the "missing" map (1570-1617) looks a little like:-

• Crossline to Marzeel:  Volsaxiland;
• Marzeel to Bullflood (or else to the Syphon, depending who you ask when):  Vandarland;
• Above to Minthos:  Gardufar;
• Minthos to Bandori:  Esvular (and/or "Bandori tribe").

It could be divided like that.  It's all ruled by Belintar and his Governor, of course, but this is the period where you could reasonably say that the "South Sartar" tribes as referenced in WBRM (i.e. those from Whitewall to Twotop particular - Kultain, Sylangi, Curtali, Bacofi) look to the Kingdom of Sartar for "leadership", and likely fail to pay tribute to the Governor of Heortland/Belintar.

[jajagappa]

50 minutes ago, Alex said:

Well like I say, now you have Olontongi who, ever if they don't have Rex rites yet, will certainly have obstreperous people pointing out how much better it'd be if they did...   (Now you may object that they're barely even in Volsaxiland, and Volsaxiland is barely in Heortland, and on that I'd have to cop a plea.)

The Olontongi control Newtown and the North Vale - i.e. the trade road from Karse to Wilmskirk.  So they're getting all the tribute they can reasonably demand/take from those passing through.  And they control the access to Whitewall and the Orlanth temple there - if you can avoid the Lunar ghosts/spirits/demons/horrors that still are in and around Whitewall.

But, though the Olontongi still have one of Broyan's lieutenants as a charismatic, adventurer-type leader, they are not a unified clan.  They are a bunch of warbands each with their own leader, and the promise of loot has not been readily fulfilled....  It has the potential for someone ambitious to bring in the Rex rites, or recover the Sword and Helm ala Broyan, or find some other route to tribal kingship,...

This group doesn't extend into Volsaxiland as the Volsaxi recognize the Divine Blood of Vingkot as the method of determining kingship.  They are waiting to see if there is a True Heir to Broyan...  and on that note, someone might just happen to remember that Queen Samastina of Nochet gave birth to twins in 1624... 😉

59 minutes ago, Alex said:

I'd probably go with the concept of the former provinces as kinda-sorta tribal confederations (again, very ricketty ones, or else utterly non-functional as such), and with "tribes" around the features identified on the Dragon Pass gazetteer map

The cities become the natural, and defensible, focal points.  In this post-Belintar, post-Broyan, post-Lunar Heortland, where Queen Gagix is unleashing her scorpion hordes, those who can seize and control the cities, and the trade between, are likely to become the power brokers/rivals in post-1625 Heortland.

1 hour ago, Alex said:

At any rate, regardless of the exact respective loyalist concentrations in either, any self-respecting wannabe Archon of Durengard or Chief of Hurlantar (titles made up while you wait!) is going to want to claim, in pretence or otherwise, nearby areas if they're at all of a compatible constituency.  In this sub-region you'll have some moderate-ish levels of loyalists, and be at some middling point in the gradient of Aeolians, as well as having lots of ornery Hendriki (or Orlanthi, misc, at least).

The Golden Age (of Belintar) is gone.  The Storm Age is once again upon us!  You're going to have to forge the Storm Tribe anew.

And not only will you have God-king loyalists, ornery Hendriki, and Aeolians to draw upon, but also: Storm Bull warbands, Wolf Pirates, scattered Westerners (both Rikard's former followers as well as new arrivals fleeing the fall of Nolos), and... abandoned Lunars!  (There were some scattered Lunar garrisons now abandoned by the Empire - if someone pays them well, they are likely to be as loyal as any.)

[Erol of Backford]

Based on the extensive wonderful input/insight above, the 1600 ~ 1625 campaign background ~ outline has all it needs and more. Insert events, encounters, scenarios and plenty of travel in between not to mention all the political mishmash, there is easily several years of quality real world RuneQuest Gloranthian gaming ahead.

I am not sure what will happen to the denizens of Backford when its overrun but hopefully the PCs make it back in time to help the evacuation as I very much dislike the idea that they all become lunch?  

Thank you all!

[Alex]

3 minutes ago, jajagappa said:

This group [Olontongi] doesn't extend into Volsaxiland [...]

Ah.  I'd been guessing they'd have claimed some of the former "Sylangi proper" territory.

11 minutes ago, jajagappa said:

They are waiting to see if there is a True Heir to Broyan...  and on that note, someone might just happen to remember that Queen Samastina of Nochet gave birth to twins in 1624... 😉

Seems a long time in to wait in Hendriki attention-span terms!  But yes, that sounds like a very plausible arc to me.  Quite what the threshold between "let's wait until" and "we need another fix in the meantime", and that and "we waited too long, that precedent no longer holds" is doubtless itself...  Changeable!

3 minutes ago, jajagappa said:

And not only will you have God-king loyalists, ornery Hendriki, and Aeolians to draw upon, but also: Storm Bull warbands, Wolf Pirates, scattered Westerners (both Rikard's former followers as well as new arrivals fleeing the fall of Nolos), and... abandoned Lunars!  (There were some scattered Lunar garrisons now abandoned by the Empire - if someone pays them well, they are likely to be as loyal as any.)

Thanks, I'd hate to have missed out any complications, much less all of those!  Those are less likely as sources of rulership models, or models even to bodge a compromise between, but they're certainly all additional factors to cause them all to struggle and fail...  An essential part of any "listen people, I have a great new plan for Orlanthi government!" plot arc.

[Joerg]

4 hours ago, Alex said:

That sort of weird I can definitely rationalise and live with.  In fact, it might even act to reinforce the resistance to the Rex subcult, if Andrin "proved" that his Alakor was a Dragonbreaker, and very definitely not a Super King with Evil Emperor Tyrannical Mind Control Powers(TM).

No - this was the good kind of mind control that would bring draconically inclined priests to heel. Worthless on fully enlightened draconics, though, but enough to raise Frankenstein mobs where the EWF was more about collecting tribute than about spreading draconic wisdom.

 

City Rex - where the Orlanth subcult is in the title...

4 hours ago, Alex said:

But surely the point is they're pretty much anything but Rex-types. 

Why? Introduced by a Larnsting king, then exported by a Larnsting king-to-be. The Sartarite Rex cult comes straight from the Hendriki, but Sartar hiimself never seems to have been of a particularly royal lineage - his only claim to rulership is his Larnsting-hood. At least prior to marrying the FHQ.

4 hours ago, Alex said:

They might be "Super Chiefs", usin Dar rites or some variation on those -- I think the BoHM mentions another entity or aspect of Orlanth significant to tribe-foundation, but I'm not clear if they're essentially the same rites.  They might be talars.  They might be sub-sub-(sub...)-governors.

Under Belintar, they might be Essrikuab Grandmothers or Yelmic overseers, dating back to Palangio's governorship?

The concept of clans or tribes of unusual size must be fairly recent, if one compares to the Resettlement era.

[Joerg]

6 hours ago, scott-martin said:

IMG this remains an unsettled question of history. For purposes of both art and expediency, I want to believe that this may be the most ancient surviving mortal caste expression left on the lozenge . . . maybe even the original Malkonwal settled after the Expulsion if you believe the local street prophets. 

From what I remember seeing, there is a chance that the Talar was brought to the Ingareens only by the Waertagi after the Breaking of the World.

 

6 hours ago, scott-martin said:

In pursuit of maximum gloranthan complexity, I am willing to be convinced that the current aeolian system emerged at a specific time and in specific circumstances,

Agreed. However, I think it would have to be more ancient. The Esvulari appear to be a splinter group of the Jon Barat survivors, but they are one of the Foreigners subject to the Hendriki Foreigner Laws of Aventus, an early successor to Hendrik (before 500 ST). Later, they are shown as very belligerent.

 

6 hours ago, scott-martin said:

maybe in the wreckage of empire or even in the early Belintar revelations ("Demi-Birth Era") that also fed into the modern Trader Prince doctrine and so on. But there were probably people here in ancient times who acknowledged that the prophet was descended from storm.

The Slontan travelogue in the Durengard Scrolls around 900 describes the Aeolians as heterodox Malkioni (HotHP p.62). The Expulsion Walk hypothesis is similar to Europe being settled by Iaphetites.

Emphasizing the Brithos texts over the Danmalastan texts in Revealed Mythologies is to be expected of the more ancient Malkioni groups. Malkion is son of Aerlit, brother (and great-great-great-grandfather) of Damol.

[Alex]

20 minutes ago, Joerg said:

The concept of clans or tribes of unusual size must be fairly recent, if one compares to the Resettlement era.

I'm not suggesting they're Clans of Unusual Size as such.  For one thing that'd get more and more unworkable if they're supposed to be exogamous in even the most notional way.  But rather that if you have a tribal "king" with only the sort of rulership authority and magic a clan chief has, and without the decision-making structures a clan has, you have an even bigger governmental shambles than Orlanthi usual.

I'm not sure if this correlates at all with the confusion of tribes and tribal confederations, and clans and tribes, in for example the Tales presentation of some of this, though it's an available rationale if anyone cares about that.

[Joerg]

3 minutes ago, Alex said:

I'm not suggesting they're Clans of Unusual Size as such.  For one thing that'd get more and more unworkable if they're supposed to be exogamous in even the most notional way.  But rather that if you have a tribal "king" with only the sort of rulership authority and magic a clan chief has, and without the decision-making structures a clan has, you have an even bigger governmental shambles than Orlanthi usual.

Only if you accept the Sartarite or Jonatelan situation as usual. They are an outlier on the Kingdom end of the spectrum, with regions like Brolia or the Solanthi on the other end.

The alternative are tribes inside tribes inside tribes, until the term loses all meaning. (Or replace "tribe" with "king's domains".)

3 minutes ago, Alex said:

I'm not sure if this correlates at all with the confusion of tribes and tribal confederations, and clans and tribes, in for example the Tales presentation of some of this, though it's an available rationale if anyone cares about that.

Heortland, and Lunar Tarsh. Both places where urbanisation is way older than in Sartar, and where the constituent tribes to a city may have lost impact. Similar in Saird or Esrolia, it seems.

[Joerg]

4 hours ago, jajagappa said:

Combine the Horali and the Dronari - the two lower groups.  And allow them to worship the "lesser" emanations of the Invisible God (e.g. the war gods, the gods of earth and hearth and beasts, etc.)

Combine the Horali into the Dronari, or drop them at all? I don't see any strong evidence for either.

 

4 hours ago, jajagappa said:

The wizard-priests would focus on the Invisible God, and only learn sorcery. 

Half of them, those who qualify, do. Unless Esvulari Zzaburi roll 1D6+12 for INT.

Or unless there are more spells like Open Seas which have a variant that can be cast by people who have not mastered any runes or techniques. But then we might have sorcery-users in the other castes, too.

4 hours ago, jajagappa said:

The nobles/thanes would see themselves as descendants of Orlanth and Ernalda and their families.

And never touch one of Orlanth's accoutrements?

 

[Kloster]

18 hours ago, Richard S. said:

Edit: even if it's not actually canon, after giving this some more thought I think I'll run with it for my Aeolians. Wizard-priests who simultaneously learn sorcery and sacrifice to Orlanth, a typical noble warrior class of chieftains and thanes who worship Orlanth normally, and a general "everyone else".

This is also how I see them.

[jajagappa]

10 hours ago, Alex said:

I'd been guessing they'd have claimed some of the former "Sylangi proper" territory.

They have, but Sylangi live north of Whitewall.  Volsaxiland is the middle Marzeel Valley south of Whitewall.

10 hours ago, Alex said:

Seems a long time in to wait in Hendriki attention-span terms! 

Well, there's also the quest option. Go back into the Godtime and prove you're Kodig's heir, and return with the Sword and Helm.  Broyan did it, why not you?

[Jeff]

There wasn't a lost map, but it didn't seem terribly useful as things don't change that much in Heortland, other than the Volsaxi displacing the Kitori. But here it is.

If you are centering a game on Backford, it is worth keeping in mind that Backford likely benefited from the general explosion in long-distance trade that happened after the Opening. At the very least, the Orshanti may have been able to exploit their connections to Sartar to participate in the burgeoning caravan trade. Same thing with the Volsaxi and city of Karse. This continued during the Lunar Occupation of Sartar, although with growing competition with well-connected Etyries caravans from the Empire.