Backford Aeolian Campaign

[Erol of Backford]

8 hours ago, Ladygolem said:

Maybe there's no hard transition. You enter the shrine from the land, walk through a short tunnel, and upon exiting you find yourself at the bottom of the bay, never having noticed the exact point one became the other. And vice versa coming up, of course.

So its like teleportation or a portal of sorts?

Edited December 9, 2021 by Erol of Backford

[Ladygolem]

34 minutes ago, Erol of Backford said:

So its like teleportation or a portal of sorts?

Not really, you're still moving through space normally, downward towards the sea floor. It's more like where normally you'd have the water's surface, here you have sort of a gradient.

Remember that walking along the Fish Roads you don't feel  like you're underwater. You breathe and move like on solid land even while the fish swim past your ear. It's not a big air bubble.

[Erol of Backford]

10 hours ago, Ladygolem said:

You enter the shrine from the land, walk through a short tunnel, and upon exiting you find yourself at the bottom of the bay, never having noticed the exact point one became the other.

So if a short tunnel transports you into the bay it would be like traveling 15 if not 30 miles and so I assume it would be almost like a portal or your travel speed is drastically increased, which I like as if you are walking it'd take you a long time to get to the City of Wonders which is about 75 miles away from Backford? Jaja and Joerg discussed movement in the Fish Roads in detail earlier. Either way using the magical water road to boost travel speed makes sense. Bedknobs and Broomsticks

and Broomsticks. Thank you for the input LG.

 

 

 

 

Edited December 9, 2021 by Erol of Backford

[jajagappa]

50 minutes ago, Erol of Backford said:

So if a short tunnel transports you into the bay it would be like traveling 15 if not 30 miles and so I assume it would be almost like a portal or your travel speed is drastically increased

My thought is along this line:  from without, they appear as either fast-moving currents within the water (or in a few places, the air), or spinning, gyring "tubes" that mix water and air together. 

If you've seen the movie Finding Nemo, then it would be like jumping into the East Australia Current and rushed along.  You could walk it, run in it, swim along it, or even ride boats (or wagons, perhaps pulled by turtles or seahorses!) through it. 

But it most travels underwater (probably along the sea floor), and for humans may be rather claustrophobic with all that water above and around you.

[Joerg]

One way I can imagine the transition is as similar to the Stargate effects, only horizontal (i.e. like those bubble effects were created). The terminus is activated, pushing up a huge bubble of air from the water, and then the now shiny surface can be crossed while retaining the subjective medium you started from (unless you exit, in which case you return to the medium you entered from and the magical effect goes away).

The other way would be a permanent terminus, something like a waterfall curtain, or an intermediary area of mist or violent spray (or violent bubbling, if you exit from the water side) until you are in the alien medium while retaining your home medium.

You might be able to ride the other medium's water creatures or land creatures after transitioning, and it is possible that there are merman caravans offering rides on big enough fish, but otherwise you are limited to your normal mode of traffic - you swim through the air, or you walk or fly through the water while you are on the Fish Road portions. Stuff you carry along is buoyant to the medium it comes from - even an air-filled barrel or amphora needs to be carried, while a strand of kelp will keep being pulled by the current or your motion if you carry it from the water side to the land side.

Theoretically, a land dweller could enter a terminus diving in from the sea side and continue swimming through the air, but that land dweller wouldn't be able to breathe the air as he has taken the water environment with him. He might take along trapped air, or use water-breathing magic.

Things get interesting once you approach the border region of the fish road while being in the magical environment at a place other than the terminus. Will you lose your magical other environment, and start swimming (really diving) when leaving the protection of the Fish Road? Can you ride a High Llama through a Fish Road, or will its head (and yours) stick out if held upright?

Also, the stretch inside the Syphon River is "interesting". Does the water have the necessary depth along the entire course of the Syphon? How does that look at Backford's name-giving ford?

[Ladygolem]

5 hours ago, Erol of Backford said:

So if a short tunnel transports you into the bay it would be like traveling 15 if not 30 miles and so I assume it would be almost like a portal or your travel speed is drastically increased, which I like as if you are walking it'd take you a long time to get to the City of Wonders which is about 75 miles away from Backford?

Sorry, I missed the part where the shrine was on the river. Substitute "bottom of the bay" with "riverbed". The distance is perfectly normative, only the experience of entering the water is supernatural.

[Ladygolem]

6 hours ago, Joerg said:

Stuff you carry along is buoyant to the medium it comes from - even an air-filled barrel or amphora needs to be carried, while a strand of kelp will keep being pulled by the current or your motion if you carry it from the water side to the land side.

You can tell you're near a Fish Road terminus by the occasional very confused minnow or carp swimming through the air ...

Also, if you haven't seen it, a good reference for the Fish Road would be the movie Sadko (1953, dir. Aleksandr Ptushko), specifically the scenes in the Underwater Kingdom. Great special effects that still hold up nearly 70 years later! The movie was released in the US as "Sinbad's Magical Voyage" for some bizarre reason (there's a very funny MST3K episode of it).

I can't find the clip on YouTube, so I'll attach a painting of the same scene by Ilya Repin. One of my favorites.

(PS. The Novgorod in that movie is also what the Malkioni West looks like IMG 🙂 )

[Erol of Backford]

Does anyone have sources for he Book of Dale? Mr. Stafford wrote in WFN 04 "There is also the famous Book of Dale, compiled by a kind scholar of old. It is a tome of great power, containing some battle magics and, more important, the formulae for extending a mage's range." This sounds like it should be found and brought to one of the Knowledge temples for study?

Any thoughts on where it is, what it contains and who may guard/own it? Maybe its on the shelf in a old tower somewhere, buried in the Pavis Rubble or even on one of the shelves in Lord Skyppens Mansion?

On another note the mansion could easily be integrated into the Footprint/Jab Hills environ with all the scorpion man background in it? Its protected by illusion and well scorpionmen aren't very magically inclined? Maybe its a place to hide from the hordes when they sack Backford? Maybe the river running through the catacombs is an underground branch of the Syphon and has the Fish Road into the Footprint running through it? 

Thoughts/ideas?

 

[metcalph]

I think the Book of Dale is a God Learner (or EWF) Book and probably kicked in and around the Valley of Cradles in the Imperial Age.  There is some remark in The Middle Sea Empire about a Barbelo Stone who was mounting some campaign about the opening of the Book of Secrets and sohe could have written the Book.  I daresay the Book was used in the defense of Pavis after the walls were breahed and then looted.  Possibly it fell into the hands of the Pavis Survivors who bore it from the Rubble when the Trolls took over.

Its teachings were then adapted for the Wastelands magical landscape and it soon became seen a magical treasure to be had rather than a foreign corrupting artifact.  As a result, its been kicking around the tribes but kept out of Sable hands (otherwise the Lunars would have had it which hasn't happened).

I think rather than the bearers of the book having to learn Old Pavic to read it, it has a patron spirit that instructs the bearers how to cast magic so long as they have the book.

 

[Jeff]

16 hours ago, Ladygolem said:

You can tell you're near a Fish Road terminus by the occasional very confused minnow or carp swimming through the air ...

Also, if you haven't seen it, a good reference for the Fish Road would be the movie Sadko (1953, dir. Aleksandr Ptushko), specifically the scenes in the Underwater Kingdom. Great special effects that still hold up nearly 70 years later! The movie was released in the US as "Sinbad's Magical Voyage" for some bizarre reason (there's a very funny MST3K episode of it).

I can't find the clip on YouTube, so I'll attach a painting of the same scene by Ilya Repin. One of my favorites.

(PS. The Novgorod in that movie is also what the Malkioni West looks like IMG 🙂 )

That's pretty close. The Fish Roads are areas where both Air and Water beings can breath and move. Don't try to describe it "scientifically" - these are magical places where Belintar got Air and Water to agree to cooperate for the benefit of the Holy Country.

[scott-martin]

13 hours ago, Erol of Backford said:

Does anyone have sources for he Book of Dale? Mr. Stafford wrote in WFN 04 "There is also the famous Book of Dale, compiled by a kind scholar of old. It is a tome of great power, containing some battle magics and, more important, the formulae for extending a mage's range." This sounds like it should be found and brought to one of the Knowledge temples for study?

The Book of Dale is intimately connected to "Moonbroth" and details may appear when that prophetic site is explored. There are those who say the historical Dale was son of a famous duck but that might just be lexical confusion and not some unique EWF species-crossing experiment.

Pushing the range factor is attractive of course to magicians averse to getting their hands dirty and their skin bruised. The author was obsessed with the notion of systems of communication at a distance: if you can exchange information remotely, you can modify the carrier network to transmit heavier magical effects. The problem is you need to prepare the way by having an address on the ground. You can't simply beam a sunspear across the chaparral, for example.

Greg didn't talk much about the narrative content, which tends to focus on the monster experience and is good for at least a few scattered lore points. Either way I do need to get my copy to a Knowledge temple one of these days because I believe it's one of the few remaining in private hands.

[Erol of Backford]

The book would allow one to learn or would teach if a spirit, the Range skill for sorcery would it not? So it you have some sort of sight projection you could cast spells at a great range likely with additional MP's added, like some of the old sorcery rules...

[Jeff]

3 hours ago, scott-martin said:

The Book of Dale is intimately connected to "Moonbroth" and details may appear when that prophetic site is explored. There are those who say the historical Dale was son of a famous duck but that might just be lexical confusion and not some unique EWF species-crossing experiment.

Pushing the range factor is attractive of course to magicians averse to getting their hands dirty and their skin bruised. The author was obsessed with the notion of systems of communication at a distance: if you can exchange information remotely, you can modify the carrier network to transmit heavier magical effects. The problem is you need to prepare the way by having an address on the ground. You can't simply beam a sunspear across the chaparral, for example.

Greg didn't talk much about the narrative content, which tends to focus on the monster experience and is good for at least a few scattered lore points. Either way I do need to get my copy to a Knowledge temple one of these days because I believe it's one of the few remaining in private hands.

How charmingly naive those Dawn Age scholars were before the days of Issaries caravan, flying Orlanthi, and Moon Boats!

[scott-martin]

28 minutes ago, Jeff said:

How charmingly naive those Dawn Age scholars were before the days of Issaries caravan, flying Orlanthi, and Moon Boats!

Long way come, long way to go before our technology eliminates space once and for all. "Remember here when you are there."

[Erol of Backford]

LOL Orlanthi Modernists:

[Erol of Backford]

I know the Caprati family doesn't really arrive in Nochet until about 1619 but if it fits into the 1600 start of the campaign couldn't the Caprati family have sent a minor member of the family or liege to the region at about 1600 maybe to begin looking to set up trade with parts of Heortland for any number of things, perhaps even some ship building or repair contracts in Sklar, maybe this is where a relation starts with Gwydion of Sklar? He is going to be a major benefactor in the orphanage which took care of the Agimori twins in the campaign, basically adopts them... this keeps getting better and better for me...

If the Caprati family would be known to the PC's even a few years later say 1605 or even one may be somehow married, adopted or hired through their contacts to work for the Caprati's, again through Gwydion, maybe he knows Father Teoberdt from Beyond the building Wall, (TotRM 13)?

Also, I mentioned Captain Ortossno from Tradetalk 12, whom Saronil Whiteteeth was traveling with previously, to or from Nochet and Heortland, getting drunk on the beach with the Trader and the natives having a pig roast... How might I tie the Caprati's to Backford or the Heortland Coast as early as the du Tumerine's arrival in Nochet? Ideas and thanks for the input.

Maybe one of the PC's is a Caprati themselves, albeit a low status family member or child of a Caprati Liege?

Edited December 11, 2021 by Erol of Backford

[soltakss]

13 hours ago, Erol of Backford said:

LOL Orlanthi Modernists:

Does it burn bright?

[jajagappa]

11 hours ago, Erol of Backford said:

I know the Caprati family doesn't really arrive in Nochet until about 1619 but if it fits into the 1600 start of the campaign couldn't the Caprati family have sent a minor member of the family or liege to the region at about 1600 maybe to begin looking to set up trade with parts of Heortland for any number of things, perhaps even some ship building or repair contracts in Sklar, maybe this is where a relation starts with Gwydion of Sklar?

Everything about the Capratis and du Turmerines is non-canonical until whatever point a Nochet/Esrolia book is published, so you can construct how you wish to.

What I mapped out when reconciling these two families into the more recent view was a two-step process of treaty wives between the Queens of Nochet and leading (but rival) families of Nolos.

What I mapped out was the following: in 1603-4 ST, after having won the Three Contests, Duke Ariston of Nolos sent the du Tumerines of Arsden to Nochet to:  1) establish a trade treaty; and 2) establish a presence in Nochet.  The du Tumerines secured a treaty wife from House Delaineao (a granddaughter of Valira and niece of Dormal).  Because of their foreign ways and denial of Ernalda (reminiscent of the evil God Learners of Slontos), the du Tumerines were not allowed to take a house in the city.  As good Rokari who deemed the city too heathen, the du Tumerines did not protest this arrangement.  With the guidance of their zzaburi, they established a household south of the city in Meldektown.  But they were not allowed to build a temple to the Invisible God.

After the destruction of the Kethaelan fleet in 1616, Queen Hendira looked for more aid from the far west.  That year, Queen Hendira granted the Noloswal ex-patriates various privileges in Meldektown, including the right to build their own temple (the Temple of the Invisible God), the right to use their own laws in disputes within their own community, and the road toll privilege, in exchange for financial payments.

Concerned about Handra as a rival in trade, Queen Hendira also looked for warriors from afar.  Hendira sent a younger Norinel sister to Duke Mulliam of Nolos as a treaty wife.  In response to her overtures, Duke Mulliam of Nolos sent the Capratis of Noloswal, a troublesome family of exiles from the wars with Guilmarn, as “aid” to Queen Hendira, and they arrived late in 1619.  The Caprati family was gifted with a treaty wife as well: Elena ‘the Rose’, from House Zirandarn, a close ally of House Norinel. 

So you've got two sets of rivals: one set in Nolos (du Tumerine/Caprati) and one set in Nochet (Delaineao/Norinel).

It's very easy to think that with the treaty arrangement between du Tumerine/Delaineao, that the Capratis and House Norinel may have started engaging in more extended relationships as early as 1603.  It just would not have been formalized in any treaty, nor would it have been a large arrival.

In proper western fashion, a minor noble (younger child and/or cadet branch) who is leader/merchant would be sent, accompanied by a zzaburi spiritual advisor, some horali guards, and some amount of common workers.

They would not have received "formal" support at this point, but certainly could be a Nolos merchant engaged in trade (but not enjoying the trade advantages or settlement privileges of their rival).  They might setup in Karse, Leskos, or Durengard in Heortland.  They might well commission ship repairs in Sklar - though since the God-king is still alive in the period 1600-1616), most shipbuilding there would be for the God-king's Fleet.  (And if Gwydion of Sklar fits in your campaign, then, yes, could establish relationship then.)

This merchant would serve as an ongoing conduit for trade between Nolos and the Norinel family which later is formalized.

 

 

 

[Erol of Backford]

As I said, it keeps getting better and better, thanks a whole bunch Jaja! Another question, when would the Aeol Temple have been built? Fantastic map BTW, I just found it last evening. Still years of catching up to do on my end...

Edited December 11, 2021 by Erol of Backford

[Erol of Backford]

Nice map of Seapolis in TotRM 17.

[Jeff]

1 hour ago, jajagappa said:

Everything about the Capratis and du Turmerines is non-canonical until whatever point a Nochet/Esrolia book is published, so you can construct how you wish to.

What I mapped out when reconciling these two families into the more recent view was a two-step process of treaty wives between the Queens of Nochet and leading (but rival) families of Nolos.

What I mapped out was the following: in 1603-4 ST, after having won the Three Contests, Duke Ariston of Nolos sent the du Tumerines of Arsden to Nochet to:  1) establish a trade treaty; and 2) establish a presence in Nochet.  The du Tumerines secured a treaty wife from House Delaineao (a granddaughter of Valira and niece of Dormal).  Because of their foreign ways and denial of Ernalda (reminiscent of the evil God Learners of Slontos), the du Tumerines were not allowed to take a house in the city.  As good Rokari who deemed the city too heathen, the du Tumerines did not protest this arrangement.  With the guidance of their zzaburi, they established a household south of the city in Meldektown.  But they were not allowed to build a temple to the Invisible God.

After the destruction of the Kethaelan fleet in 1616, Queen Hendira looked for more aid from the far west.  That year, Queen Hendira granted the Noloswal ex-patriates various privileges in Meldektown, including the right to build their own temple (the Temple of the Invisible God), the right to use their own laws in disputes within their own community, and the road toll privilege, in exchange for financial payments.

Concerned about Handra as a rival in trade, Queen Hendira also looked for warriors from afar.  Hendira sent a younger Norinel sister to Duke Mulliam of Nolos as a treaty wife.  In response to her overtures, Duke Mulliam of Nolos sent the Capratis of Noloswal, a troublesome family of exiles from the wars with Guilmarn, as “aid” to Queen Hendira, and they arrived late in 1619.  The Caprati family was gifted with a treaty wife as well: Elena ‘the Rose’, from House Zirandarn, a close ally of House Norinel. 

So you've got two sets of rivals: one set in Nolos (du Tumerine/Caprati) and one set in Nochet (Delaineao/Norinel).

It's very easy to think that with the treaty arrangement between du Tumerine/Delaineao, that the Capratis and House Norinel may have started engaging in more extended relationships as early as 1603.  It just would not have been formalized in any treaty, nor would it have been a large arrival.

In proper western fashion, a minor noble (younger child and/or cadet branch) who is leader/merchant would be sent, accompanied by a zzaburi spiritual advisor, some horali guards, and some amount of common workers.

They would not have received "formal" support at this point, but certainly could be a Nolos merchant engaged in trade (but not enjoying the trade advantages or settlement privileges of their rival).  They might setup in Karse, Leskos, or Durengard in Heortland.  They might well commission ship repairs in Sklar - though since the God-king is still alive in the period 1600-1616), most shipbuilding there would be for the God-king's Fleet.  (And if Gwydion of Sklar fits in your campaign, then, yes, could establish relationship then.)

This merchant would serve as an ongoing conduit for trade between Nolos and the Norinel family which later is formalized.

 

 

 

I am not sure these families even exist, at least not in the way they were presented in Tales. 

[Joerg]

3 hours ago, Jeff said:

I am not sure these families even exist, at least not in the way they were presented in Tales. 

They were introduced to me in the Freeform "How The West Was One", with the family rivalry already in place. Plenty people jumped on what was known about these characters - in a large part from the post-game experiences shared on the Digest and in the convention summary booklets printed as fund-raisers. I know that I did not re-invent the wheel when I built up my vision of Heortland and the Holy Country, and quite a few of these characters were also reused in Rise of Ralios.

But then, those write-ups assumed that both these talar families provided high-ranking zzaburi in the Rokari hierarchy. The short write-up of the Rokari in the rule book does allow this - talar families would not be exempt from providing boys for zzaburi education. Whether they would retain their family names and allegiances is a slightly different question, but the general track record of the Rokari suggests some pragmatism.

 

Neither family made it into the Guide of Glorantha, but then they are only second tier families in the Quinpolic League, and the lesser of the five cities receive hardly any description beyond what island they are on and their function as naval and mercantile bases.

 

It is possible to rewrite a setting and defining a new canon where fans have created a network of their own ideas, plot-lines and characters. Disney has demonstrated that with the Star Wars franchise. The result was a new trilogy of Star Wars movies, and a few prequels, and lots of highly interwoven and well-played material relegated to the subordinate status of fan-fiction. The result was a loss of long-time fan engagement alongside a new generation of new viewers, and the new owners being able to avoid re-use of any third party characters.

Is that an issue for the future of Glorantha, though?

[jajagappa]

4 hours ago, Jeff said:

I am not sure these families even exist, at least not in the way they were presented in Tales.

Certainly not in the way they were outlined in Tales.

When I was putting the city map together, we outlined a small community from the west (Nolos) in Nochet, and it seemed to make sense to put them outside the city proper as noted here: https://wellofdaliath.chaosium.com/home/catalogue/publishers/to-sort-categorise/nochet-city-of-queens/

The note as that point re: Meldektown was: "More recently, the queens of Nochet have arranged trade treaties with the distant Dukes of Nolos."  I simply integrated these two families as the minor nobles sent by the Dukes of Nolos at different points as part of those treaties (treaty husbands if you will).

[Jeff]

2 hours ago, Joerg said:

They were introduced to me in the Freeform "How The West Was One", with the family rivalry already in place. Plenty people jumped on what was known about these characters - in a large part from the post-game experiences shared on the Digest and in the convention summary booklets printed as fund-raisers. I know that I did not re-invent the wheel when I built up my vision of Heortland and the Holy Country, and quite a few of these characters were also reused in Rise of Ralios.

But then, those write-ups assumed that both these talar families provided high-ranking zzaburi in the Rokari hierarchy. The short write-up of the Rokari in the rule book does allow this - talar families would not be exempt from providing boys for zzaburi education. Whether they would retain their family names and allegiances is a slightly different question, but the general track record of the Rokari suggests some pragmatism.

 

Neither family made it into the Guide of Glorantha, but then they are only second tier families in the Quinpolic League, and the lesser of the five cities receive hardly any description beyond what island they are on and their function as naval and mercantile bases.

 

It is possible to rewrite a setting and defining a new canon where fans have created a network of their own ideas, plot-lines and characters. Disney has demonstrated that with the Star Wars franchise. The result was a new trilogy of Star Wars movies, and a few prequels, and lots of highly interwoven and well-played material relegated to the subordinate status of fan-fiction. The result was a loss of long-time fan engagement alongside a new generation of new viewers, and the new owners being able to avoid re-use of any third party characters.

Is that an issue for the future of Glorantha, though?

I've written over a dozen freeforms. None of them I consider particularly canonical - characters are lumped together, bawdlerized, lumped together, or combined with thinly veiled pop culture references. 

[metcalph]

If I was doing the families for RQ:G, I would:

Pick a Noble Ancestor.  Although the Guide and Staffordian material has a lot of names like Ehilm, Lodik, Aerlit and Coalot, it's easier just to assume the names are local variations of one of the conventional Gloranthan Gods.  Since the Capratis and Du Tumerines are hostile to each other, make their ancestors Gods who would be opposed to each other: like Orlanth and Yelmalio, Argan Argar, Lodril etc.

The Nobles will have access to their ancestor's rune magics.  Their retainers will have access to their spirit magics as they are lay members at best.  Select retainers of lower caste could be granted a dispensation to initiate to the ancestor and learn their rune magics.

Pick the Hsunchen Warrior Ancestor.  Telmor, Basmol, Pralor, Tawar etc.  Most warriors are lay members of their chosen order and restricted to spirit magics.  Skilled warriors often initiate (with the local authorities looking the other way) to gain access to rune magics.