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One thing that is clear from this series of maps is that Volsaxar and Vandarland are going to have lots of ties and influences to Sartar. Marriages, shared cult, language, and culture, and trade are going to mean that the people of northern Heortland are virtually indistinguishable from Sartarites.

And yet, Belintar is the beloved God-King here because he brings the God Realm into proximity of the mundane world. Heortland is part of the Holy Country, while Sartar is carved out of the wilderness.

Meanwhile at the southern tip of Heortland, we have the Aeolians of Esvular, who are clearly influenced by both the Orlanthi and the Malkioni of God Forgot.

Meanwhile in central Heortland many customs such as a mounted elite warriors that are selected from aristocratic families and their status approved in assemblies, are clearly influenced by the Malkioni, while at the same time the culture is very similarly to the Sartarites. These mounted elite warriors supported Rikard the Tiger-Hearted's short lived kingdom (1618-1620) and now many serve as mercenaries.   

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I realize the ToTRM 13 article on orphanages is not canonical but I like the idea that the Aeolians of Sothern Heortland would also have orphanages established more as a state school of sorts for not only those showing promise but also those who are disadvantaged or of course orphaned. They may even be one more recently established in Backford?

I am looking at associating the Cathedral of St. Aeol at Mt. Passant with an orphanage as well as a school for higher learning. If anyone has done any "city planning" on Mt. Passant or has an example/sample of what they might have used for the city could you suggest and or share it? Would it be like Carcassonne (say 1250 AD) which seems a bit small for a city the size of Mt. Passant but the look of the cityscape is aesthetically pleasing...

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Jaja, related to what you posted back in April on trade goods, I just reread after some 20 years, the p.13 entry in Tradetalk 12 on Captain Ortossno/Saronil Whiteteeth, salt, salted fish, oil, wine, hardwood and even bronze are trade good passing across Mirrorsea Bay... this all falls in line with what you outlined. Thanks again!

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6 minutes ago, Erol of Backford said:

I realize the ToTRM 13 article on orphanages is not canonical but I like the idea that the Aeolians of Sothern Heortland would also have orphanages established more as a state school of sorts for not only those showing promise but also those who are disadvantaged or of course orphaned. They may even be one more recently established in Backford?

I am looking at associating the Cathedral of St. Aeol at Mt. Passant with an orphanage as well as a school for higher learning. If anyone has done any "city planning" on Mt. Passant or has an example/sample of what they might have used for the city could you suggest and or share it? Would it be like Carcassonne (say 1250 AD) which seems a bit small for a city the size of Mt. Passant but the look of the cityscape is aesthetically pleasing...

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When I say ToTRM 13 is not canonical I mean it is wildly off from how things are getting presented in RQ. I doubt Mount Passant looks much at all like Carcasonne given that it was likely built with the aid of Esrolian masons. 

It probably looks a lot more like a smaller version of Pergamon.
Pergamon-The-Lower-City-with-the-Great-T

Mount Passant (large city): The largest settlement of the Esvulari was built with the aid of Belintar after the old capital, Bensval, was razed. The actual name of the city is Demthal, but everyone calls it Mount Passant after the hill that strode forward to defend this area in the God Time. This is the center of the Aeolian religion, and has the largest temple of the Invisible God in Heortland. 

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20 minutes ago, Erol of Backford said:

Its massive!? So much more than I had thought... but less medieval and more classical than I had hoped. You did say smaller version...

I don't view any city in the Holy Country looking like medieval France. Pergamon is a good point of comparison because of the hill. Priene also works:
12722.jpg

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On 11/25/2021 at 11:09 AM, Erol of Backford said:

If anyone has done any "city planning" on Mt. Passant

Developing the map of Mt. Passant is on my list of plans to-do.

On 11/25/2021 at 11:20 AM, Jeff said:

I doubt Mount Passant looks much at all like Carcasonne given that it was likely built with the aid of Esrolian masons. 

It probably looks a lot more like a smaller version of Pergamon.

Very much in line with my thoughts - I suspect the hill may be higher and more jagged.  And I'm thinking the Temple of the Invisible God is likely somewhere up on the hill where it is visible to all in the city.

On 11/25/2021 at 11:23 AM, Erol of Backford said:

Its massive!? So much more than I had thought... but less medieval and more classical than I had hoped. You did say smaller version...

It is a Large City per the Guide - I think somewhere on the order of 18k, if I remember correctly.

And, as Jeff has suggested through the images, definitely think along Bronze Age/Classical lines and not medieval. 

On 11/25/2021 at 11:09 AM, Erol of Backford said:

I am looking at associating the Cathedral of St. Aeol at Mt. Passant with an orphanage as well as a school for higher learning.

Keep in mind that the main Lhankor Mhy temple in southern Heortland is at Jelenkev, some 12km west of Mount Passant.  "Schools" of higher learning are likely similar to Plato's Academy or others teachers - but probably focused on teaching the Aeolian nobles in the arts of rhetoric, oratory, language, and history - skills needed by the noble caste to rule.  The wizard-priests (zzaburi) will teach their own - and would be restricted to their caste.  Could be connected to the Temple of the Invisible God as a sort of temple school, but don't know that this is necessary.

Most likely an orphanage would be connected to either a temple of Chalana Arroy/Arroin or of Uleria, two of the Emanations of the Invisible God.  These are normal temples and worshipped by those from the Commoner caste.

(The Commoners worship the emanations of the Invisible God, i.e. the gods/Rune cults, just the same as folk in Sartar would worship their cults.)

 

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2 minutes ago, jajagappa said:

Developing the map of Mt. Passant is on my list of plans to-do.

In your area style that we have seen for Nochet, or in a house-to-house style like Pavis?

 

2 minutes ago, jajagappa said:

Very much in line with my thoughts - I suspect the hill may be higher and more jagged.  And I'm thinking the Temple of the Invisible God is likely somewhere up on the hill where it is visible to all in the city.

An ambling hill, so without deep roots, and possibly quite different rock than the surrounding karst.

The question is how Orlanthi the temple will be. The Boldhome temples to Orlanth are one possible parallel, Malkioni ecclesiastical architecture like in Slontos the other. (Which begs the question what Old Seshnegi influences made it to Slontos. Modern Tanisor may have inherited some, but may just as well have inherited from the converted Enerali holy places.)

 

2 minutes ago, jajagappa said:

It is a Large City per the Guide - I think somewhere on the order of 18k, if I remember correctly.

8k according to the political map on p.246. Small enough for a house-to-house treatment.

 

2 minutes ago, jajagappa said:

And, as Jeff has suggested through the images, definitely think along Bronze Age/Classical lines and not medieval. 

Heortland remains on the rainy side, which makes roof terraces a bit problematic. Roof pavillions might be a possibility, though.

I might go for early Muslim Spain architectural influences - the Visigoth inherited Roman architecture, and the invading muslims came from formerly Roman Numidia. A merging of styles and cultures...

 

2 minutes ago, jajagappa said:

Most likely an orphanage would be connected to either a temple of Chalana Arroy/Arroin or of Uleria, two of the Emanations of the Invisible God.  These are normal temples and worshipped by those from the Commoner caste.

Of the 8k populace, I guess more than 5k would be Aeolians, with urban traditional Orlanthi making up much of the rest before foreigners from other Sixths come into the picture.

Out in the countryside, traditional Heortlanders are part of the Esvulari domains. Possibly intermingling, possibly in a ghetto-like separation (where being in the Aeolian ghetto may be a privilege that even Aeolians have to earn). And the term "ghetto" might better be avoided.

2 minutes ago, jajagappa said:

(The Commoners worship the emanations of the Invisible God, i.e. the gods/Rune cults, just the same as folk in Sartar would worship their cults.)

But their worship rites don't have blood sacrifice (according to the Durengard scrolls), and the rites are overseen by the Zzaburs alongside the cult holy people - the worship/veneration mana needs to flow.

Telling how it is excessive verbis

 

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1 hour ago, jajagappa said:

Developing the map of Mt. Passant is on my list of plans to-do.

Very much in line with my thoughts - I suspect the hill may be higher and more jagged.  And I'm thinking the Temple of the Invisible God is likely somewhere up on the hill where it is visible to all in the city.

It is a Large City per the Guide - I think somewhere on the order of 18k, if I remember correctly.

And, as Jeff has suggested through the images, definitely think along Bronze Age/Classical lines and not medieval. 

Keep in mind that the main Lhankor Mhy temple in southern Heortland is at Jelenkev, some 12km west of Mount Passant.  "Schools" of higher learning are likely similar to Plato's Academy or others teachers - but probably focused on teaching the Aeolian nobles in the arts of rhetoric, oratory, language, and history - skills needed by the noble caste to rule.  The wizard-priests (zzaburi) will teach their own - and would be restricted to their caste.  Could be connected to the Temple of the Invisible God as a sort of temple school, but don't know that this is necessary.

Most likely an orphanage would be connected to either a temple of Chalana Arroy/Arroin or of Uleria, two of the Emanations of the Invisible God.  These are normal temples and worshipped by those from the Commoner caste.

(The Commoners worship the emanations of the Invisible God, i.e. the gods/Rune cults, just the same as folk in Sartar would worship their cults.)

 

Mount Passant has about 8 k inhabitants. It is smaller than Boldhome, but larger than Alda-Chur.

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So my early thoughts on southern Spain may be OK, see tab 01 of this thread? I'd love to use examples of architecture where I have visited. I have the Guide and will reference the populations.

Curious though, would anywhere in 1600 Glorantha have architecture like in 1250 ~ 1400 France? Maybe Central Fronela? The gates of Sog on p.214 look quite advanced architecturally to me, definitely late Medieval, easily on par with Romanesque if not early Baroque?

Thoughts and thank you again Sirs.

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2 hours ago, Erol of Backford said:

So my early thoughts on southern Spain may be OK

I think most Esrolian cities will either have flat or slightly sloping tile roofs.  It's in the rain shadow of Caladraland though.

With southern Heortland (i.e. Esvular), you have steady and regular winds from the southwest, no rain shadow, and high plateaus.  That should produce fog and rain along the Mirrorsea coast, regular fog in the river valleys, and regular rain on the western edges of the plateaus as well as the rise to the Storm Mountains (the latter should have regular cloud cover or rising cumulus clouds, thunderstorms, etc - they are the Storm mountains after all). 

So, generally I'd expect some moderately sloped roofs.  Fired clay tiles may well be produced in the cities and used for roofing. 

4 hours ago, Joerg said:

In your area style that we have seen for Nochet

Yes, same style as in the previews Jeff has shared for Nochet and Whitewall.

4 hours ago, Joerg said:

An ambling hill, so without deep roots, and possibly quite different rock than the surrounding karst.

That seems to fit the description.  Personally I have an image of Mount Corcovado standing above Rio de Janeiro - though that may well be too large (since the text describes more of a hill).  But perhaps similar on a smaller scale

 

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1 hour ago, Erol of Backford said:

So my early thoughts on southern Spain may be OK, see tab 01 of this thread? I'd love to use examples of architecture where I have visited. I have the Guide and will reference the populations.

Well, first and foremost YGWV, and after all this is a "personal runequest campaign"-tagged thread, so why the heck not?  Though I understand and sympathise with the impulse to keep tonal consistency with official publications, especially for purposes of actually using the art in play.

My own take would be that the "chronologically latest" analogues would be to the Late Classical era, and those would generally be located in the West, or in places under very direct and heavy Malkioni influence.  There might be quite a sharp distinction between "old Esvulari" and "new-build Malkonwal" looks, insofar as the latter ha much of a chance to do much.  Lots of emergency fortifications, perhaps?  But conversely something might just happen to be a look that fits anyway, even if it's wildly anachronistic in 'model' terms.

If you want something overtly medieval or otherwise glaringly out-of-place, my suggestion would be to do it anyway, but to lampshade it with a rationale for why.  The city architect was crazy.  Or Mostali.  Or both.

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19 minutes ago, jajagappa said:

I think most Esrolian cities will either have flat or slightly sloping tile roofs.  It's in the rain shadow of Caladraland though.

Yes, roofs in Esrolia might serve to collect water for the cisterns rather than primarily get rid of the surplus.

The water collection in Nochet's Sarli district uses the local sewers to gather the water for the cisterns. That requires quite a bit of care to avoid excrements (of humans as much as of domestic beasts on the ground, like pigs, and as importantly of the ubiquitous sea birds and probably other birds taking their share out of the grain surplus, like doves) in the sewers. And of course some purifying installations - whether mechanical/biological, or magical.

19 minutes ago, jajagappa said:

With southern Heortland (i.e. Esvular), you have steady and regular winds from the southwest, no rain shadow, and high plateaus.  That should produce fog and rain along the Mirrorsea coast, regular fog in the river valleys, and regular rain on the western edges of the plateaus as well as the rise to the Storm Mountains (the latter should have regular cloud cover or rising cumulus clouds, thunderstorms, etc - they are the Storm mountains after all). 

Agreed. The edge of the plateau alone will irrigate the karst above to an extent that subterranean loss of water may do little to affect plant productivity except in rare droughts where contrary winds or calms prevent the rain from entering the land. A lot more so than in Croatia and neighboring countries.

(When such winds are cut off, productivity will quickly go down way below sustainability levels. That seems to have happened when the Machine God was fed with the physical and magical energy of the Good Wind of Heortland.)

19 minutes ago, jajagappa said:

So, generally I'd expect some moderately sloped roofs.  Fired clay tiles may well be produced in the cities and used for roofing. 

At the same time, Heortland is probably pleasantly warm much of the year, and Fire Season might make you wish for the wind to go through all rooms in the interior. In the Storm Sixth, designing houses so that the wind may enter each and every room (if you let it) might be a major design feature. Keeping the wind out or leading it past a central heating (that may double as bakery, pottery kiln, or smithing fire) could provide pleasant inside conditions in Dark and Storm Season, too.

Aeolian architecture in more than one sense.

19 minutes ago, jajagappa said:

Yes, same style as in the previews Jeff has shared for Nochet and Whitewall.

How do you translate from that to house-to-house detail maps? One house at a time?

 

19 minutes ago, jajagappa said:

That seems to fit the description.  Personally I have an image of Mount Corcovado standing above Rio de Janeiro - though that may well be too large (since the text describes more of a hill).  But perhaps similar on a smaller scale

Mt. Passant sits on top of the lower portion of the Heortland plateau (where the plateau may be rolling hills of up to 150 meters above the lower parts of the landscape and still fit into that 300 meter height band of the Guide's vertical map scale).

One place I am working on nearby is an island shown as purely lower height band. My idea about it right now is to make it a half-scale Capri, with rather steep coastal cliffs around most of the shore, grottos, and a few places on the edges even exceeding the 300 meter band (though too small an area to show up on the Guide map scale).

A similar reasoning can be applied to Mount Passant, which is shown without significant elevation beyond that band from 300 to 600 meters (give or take a few to make it 1000 to 2000 feet).

If you place the lower end of the city area at 400 meters above sea level, the ambling hill can have at least 200 meters in height above that and just scratch the next height band in the Guide.

Compare this e.g. to the Celtic oppidum near Kellheim, now crowned by the Liberation Hall, on a rocky knoll in a tight corner in the confluence of the Danube and the Altmühl. (Image taken from Google Earth Pro)

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Kelheim is a surprisingly good model for this kind of elevation (image from https://de-de.topographic-map.com/maps/6ff0/Kelheim/😞

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The ridge of the old oppidum rises about 150 meters above the river planes. The ambling hill of Mt. Passant could easily be at least half again that high, with as much craggy protrusions around its peak as you might like.

One important difference between Mt Passant and Kelheim is the absence of a major waterway. Mt. Passant is the only city in Heortland not situated on a waterway.

Maybe Hattusa is a better parallel?

One consequence of that absence of a waterway is that the city will need to rely on cisterns, as a rootless hill is unlikely to provide a holy spring near its peak. At least not a very productive one. That's something else to figure into the architecture, unless you want to invent an aqueduct for the city connected to the foothills of the Storm Mountains, or two.

 

Telling how it is excessive verbis

 

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The more I think on it, this is a magical world. Anything is possible. The Master Builders have Form Set Stone and are wizard-priests (zzaburi) or have their assistance correct? The Dwarves (Alex's idea above) have possibly much more along these lines (bad pun for architecture) for construction and design, working with stone. They could have had Metabolist or Fractal influences long before the 20th Century?!

I am thinking the temple at Jelenkev could be something like the image below and from Jeff's map, there is a point of interest about 7.5 miles west of Mt. Passant but Jelenkev is shown at a point more like 14~15 miles than 12km west of Mt. Passant when I scale it? Either way Its near a river so even water features with fountains could be integrated, even without magic... 

The Lhankor Mhy temple at Jelenkev, Jaja noted, could be below grade in the shape of "Y", possible for protection or some other reason, with the vertex culminating in this grand dome structure with a lot of scrollwork detailing on it...

How large is Jelenkev? Is it just a fortified town of 500 or so inhabitants, mostly associated with the University/LM temple?

This could also be the Temple of the Invisible God somewhere up on the hill above Mt. Passant, less the river and so it'd not likely have water features?

Oh, sorry to ask here but what is the "Sea Wall" west of Fellen? Was is magically raised similar to the Building Wall? Was it made to stop some sort of aquatic invasion?

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18 minutes ago, Erol of Backford said:

The more I think on it, this is a magical world. Anything is possible. The Master Builders have Form Set Stone and are wizard-priests (zzaburi) or have their assistance correct? The Dwarves (Alex's idea above) have possibly much more along these lines (bad pun for architecture) for construction and design, working with stone. They could have had Metabolist or Fractal influences long before the 20th Century?!

Dipping my toe into these waters.

Building is commoner's work and the commoners won't be using sorcery.  The wizards aren't there to make people's lives better through magical technology but to promote spiritual wisdom and strengthen the divine emanations (Orlanth etc). 

The Heortlanders can still have form/set stone from the cult of Flintnail or whatever dwarf the Sartarite stonemasons worship.  

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The way the Form/Set spells were written in RQ3 (they don't seem to exist in RQG, yet), there is a linear cost for the amount of matter you want to affect, and a single point will allow you to affect roughly the equivalent of a (modern clinker) brick.

From the Xeptam dialogues, the way a Malkioni sorcerer would approach something like architecture would resemble what Argan Argar did to Veskarthen to construct the Obsidian Palace - take control of a huge elemental entity and make it form its element.

Mt. Passant happens to have a huge elemental - the ambling hill. Just saying.

Telling how it is excessive verbis

 

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