Backford Aeolian Campaign

[Joerg]

More or less thinly veiled pop culture references are all over canonical Glorantha.

[Erol of Backford]

Does anyone know where this Refuge Map comes from and if so could you link it please? The river and keep are similar to the Sanctuary Plan but I almost like this one better, plus it says Refuge... thank you once again all. 

 

[David Scott]

6 hours ago, Erol of Backford said:

Does anyone know where this Refuge Map comes from and if so could you link it please? The river and keep are similar to the Sanctuary Plan but I almost like this one better, plus it says Refuge... thank you once again all. 

You likely noticed it was also in French... It's from Tatou 4 (July/August 1990):

 

• Refuge (par Guillaume Fournier, illustrations de Guillaume Fournier, 

  It also notes: Article librement inspiré de Thieve's World (Chaosium).

You can see the reference here: https://wellofdaliath.chaosium.com/home/catalogue/publishers/oriflam/tatou-1988-1996/tatou-4/

If you find a copy it's a full page illustration. 

[Erol of Backford]

Is the map actually in the zine? Does anyone know? Its like $5 for the PDF...

[Alex]

1 hour ago, Erol of Backford said:

Is the map actually in the zine? Does anyone know? Its like $5 for the PDF...

That doesn't appear to be a zine, but one of the Midkemia Press editions of the Carse supplement.

 

[Erol of Backford]

So the only place to get the Refuge map I posted above is the French zine? I have the old Thieves' World Box but I like the Guillaume Fournier version.

No worries If I cannot get it. I just like to have everything I can get within reason. LOL. Thanks again.

[Alex]

18 minutes ago, Erol of Backford said:

So the only place to get the Refuge map I posted above is the French zine? I have the old Thieves' World Box but I like the Guillaume Fournier version.

I have no idea, and I don't think I have either (spare room is too far away, and I'm far too lazy) but personally I'd not go looking for a map of Refuge in a non-Gloranthan supplement for Carse/Karse.

This thread may also be pertinent:

 

[Kloster]

2 hours ago, Erol of Backford said:

So the only place to get the Refuge map I posted above is the French zine? I have the old Thieves' World Box but I like the Guillaume Fournier version.

As far as I know, the Fournier map has been done for Tatou. You can always ask to Oriflam (once editor of Tatou and french RQ3) if they still have some.

[jajagappa]

8 hours ago, Erol of Backford said:

So the only place to get the Refuge map I posted above is the French zine? I have the old Thieves' World Box but I like the Guillaume Fournier version.

Yes, that would be the case.

10 hours ago, Erol of Backford said:

Is the map actually in the zine?

It would probably have included a map of Carse - i.e. Midkemia Press' vision of Raymond Feist's city.  But would have no particular bearing on Glorantha (other than some folks in the 80s may have used to represent Karse).  Whatever map might be there will have no relationship to what is eventually published for Karse.

 

[Joerg]

1 hour ago, jajagappa said:

Yes, that would be the case.

I am unaware of any reprint in another language, but then I have no idea about the Spanish or Japanese language fanzines of RuneQuest material.

 

Midkemia Press' 1980 City of Carse:

1 hour ago, jajagappa said:

It would probably have included a map of Carse - i.e. Midkemia Press' vision of Raymond Feist's city.  But would have no particular bearing on Glorantha (other than some folks in the 80s may have used to represent Karse).  Whatever map might be there will have no relationship to what is eventually published for Karse.

The 1980 pdf version of the City of Karse does not include the nice A3 (or was it A2?) maps that came with the Chaosium version.

It has the detail maps of the neighborhood in fairly nice shape - house outlines and entrances, and road quality - and a map in the back how these neighborhoods fit together.

It has the advantage of being available for a very low price. The content still is one of the best urban descriptions ever made for fantasy roleplaying, although this version describes the city in its Midkemian context.

I first encountered this city in its German translation, fitted into the background of the German Midgard RPG (there is an English language game by this name which has nothing to do with that). I got the Chaosium version in paper, and the Midkemia version as pdf, and once upon a time I had a wiki where I explored the city, with some participation by Light Castle aka Laurent Castellucci. The files should still be on my backup drive.

 

Raymond Feist's Carse is based on a copper plate "aerial view" map of Caernarfon in the 16th century, corrected and adapted for the city's road layout (but not for its elevation profile). While the Edwardian fortified city and castle are clearly medieval in origin, some adaptation in the style of the walls etc. would be hard to differentiate from what we got in RQG for Clearwine and Jonstown.

Chaosium is not going to pay royalties or license the city for any future publications on Karse, which is why anything directly based on this product is unlikely to be canonical, or of much use. You couldn't publish any of that in the Jonstown Compendium, for instance.

Martin Hawley's Men of the Sea for HeroQuest still has a few references to the Chaosium version of Carse. Those will most likely be gone in any future publication, too.

 

But then, any future Karse is likely to have a citadel, a walled city, and a harbor front. It may very well have spilled out of the original city area enclosed by the citadel-adjacent walls, and have a second set of fortifications following that development. It will have a similar content of guild halls, inns, bath houses, crafters' shops, etc., and quite a bit more maritime activity like shipyards and boat builders' yards. Probably not a large dedicated military shipyard, but probably a small garrison and a depot for Kethaelan navy ships. The expanded city will have overseas folk in their own little enclaves.

My Karse has always had a separate fishermen's town, with harborside quarters, boat sheds, net drying meadows, etc., much like the Holm outside of Schleswig's old city center offers, scaled back a millennium or two.

And then there is Old Karse, the survival site of the northern Pelaskites with its cyclopean walls and its sanded up river port after the re-direction of the Creek-Stream River.

[Erol of Backford]

I agree with you Joerg, the PDF cost is very inexpensive for Carse. The Carse map isn't the same as the Refuge map shown above but that was pointed out. The Carse description is nearly 100 pages of detail, I'll save that for the weekend... The keep looks almost exactly like Caernarfon, which you pointed out.

The link below has some great details on the Caernarfon Keep:

https://medievalheritage.eu/en/main-page/heritage/wales/caernarfon-castle/

There are also some free downloads on the Midkemia site, which I didn't review but have linked for any who are interested. There is also a link to some purchase items, Carse is one of them. The boxed set looks nice online and if I like it I may try to fine one as a hard copy but they look a bit expensive at a glance... the map looks good as well.

https://www.midkemia.com/HomePage/FreeStuff.html

https://www.midkemia.com/HomePage/OrderForm.html

I realize it may not be available and I don't speak French but I'd love to take a look if the map of Refuge if it is out their somewhere?

I recall playing early Runequest back in the mid 80's running from the Hellhounds and fighting in the sewers below the city of Sanctuary... fond memories.

[Jeff]

However, let me remind folk again that the old supplement Carse bears little or no resemblance to the Holy Country city of Karse.

Karse is a very old city, dating back to the Dawn. Was occupied by Lunars from 1619 to 1624.

 

Map Details:

Karse has a fortifications all around, with two main gates - a Land Gate (the main gate) and a Sea Gate (that leads to the harbour).

A. Fortress. This fortress guards the harbor. It fell to an assault of dragonewts in 1619. It is now the base of operations of whoever rules the city.

B. Main City. Here are the temples, residences, markets, and warehouses. The enclosed area probably has several open areas, for tanning, and other crafts, or for storage of bulk goods or animals. I imagine there are a lot of inns - caravanserai - in the city.

C. The Beach. This is where boats are beached. THere's a ship shed for repair, maintenance, etc., that probably can house 20 ships. There's a wall near the end of the harbor, past that small fishing boats are beached. Also on the Beach is the Sea Temple, with shrines to Magasta, Choralinthor, Diros, Dormal, and the gang.

 

The Harbor is a natural inlet that has been worked on for the last 1500 years. 

 

Beyond the harbor are coastal pine woods and orchards, and a large fishing village.

 

[Jeff]

And if anything it resembles ancient Massalia far more than medieval Caernarfon.

[Joerg]

1 hour ago, Jeff said:

Karse is a very old city, dating back to the Dawn

so the cyclopean walls from before the Greater Darkness are still used?

[Jeff]

12 minutes ago, Joerg said:

so the cyclopean walls from before the Greater Darkness are still used?

Elements of it probably. But those are thousands of years old, and likely much has been replaced. 

[Erol of Backford]

I see the resemblance...

[Joerg]

5 minutes ago, Jeff said:

Elements of it probably. But those are thousands of years old, and likely much has been replaced. 

I had the image of the Etruscan cities discovered to have Etruscan era foundations, and entire stretches of city wall, in the 19th century. That's about 2500 years of history in between.

 

If "Cyclopean" corresponds to "polygonal blocks of masonry apparently seemlessly conjoined", then such foundations under more recent buildings can be found all over the world. This kind of architecture has proven to be quite earth-quake resistent, as there are few alternatives for the blocks after being stirred up than to fall back into position.

[Jeff]

17 minutes ago, Erol of Backford said:

I see the resemblance...

Yep. Here's a nice reconstruction of Massalia:

[Jeff]

1 minute ago, Jeff said:

Yep. Here's a nice reconstruction of Massalia:

Or: 

[Jeff]

But of course, Karse is going to have lots of inns and caravanserai as it is an entrepôt for the trade through Dragon Pass to Peloria and Prax.

[Joerg]

Karse used to be the major sea-port for Dragon Pass until the Closing, and even afterward the Creek-Stream River remained the main carrier of traffic into and out of Dragon Pass. Karse would have been the place where cargo was trans-shipped to river craft which then would claw their way up the Creek-Stream River current(s).

Nowadays this kind of trans-shipping happens at the Lyksos estuary.

Normally, a port city would want to avoid the sea-going vessels and the river craft meeting directly - much of the profits in a port are made by giving the local merchants first right to purchase from cargo brought onto land and into the city's storage facilities, if only to make sure a toll is paid for that mandatory service (the Staple, which appears to be a privilege introduced to the continent by Charlemagne).

I suppose that the Mirrorsea Bay is calm enough for river craft to enter the bay and turn into the harbor basin formed by that inlet.

[Jeff]

The city is no doubt filled with Sartarites and Esrolians, perhaps more than Heortlanders. There are likely some Eyries merchants still there, as they are protected by the Issaries cult, but I suspect most of the Seven Mothers cultists fled in 1624.

[Joerg]

Much like Nochet, Karse has seen periods of growth and decline. Did the walls for the outer city adapt, or was more new area enclosed after the old enclosed area became too tight to survive in? How generous was the original area protected by those Vingkotling era walls?

The sketch map shows a total of about half a square km or 50 hectares of enclosed land, including the beach area. That's a third of the area of historical Lübeck, which had about thrice the number of inhabitants of Karse, and was very densely built up.

But then, Karse has been booming once again since the Opening, starting with Tarkalor whose achievements as Prince of Sartar include "He built a great port." (King of Sartar, p.30 in the pdf/hardcover.

And the fisherfolk village on the next bay may or may not be included in accounting for the city's residents.

[Erol of Backford]

Would there be many Lunars in Karse in 1600? I assume not as they are probably not very well received being in progress with the invasion of Sartar and secretly being supported by Belintar the God-King... Eyries merchants would likely be waylaid even more so than other travelers north of Karse on up to Tarsh?

Also I was reading about Jaransbyrig? Where is it in relation to Backford and Milran? 

 

Edited December 16, 2021 by Erol of Backford

[Jeff]

3 hours ago, Erol of Backford said:

Would there be many Lunars in Karse in 1600? I assume not as they are probably not very well received being in progress with the invasion of Sartar and secretly being supported by Belintar the God-King... Eyries merchants would likely be waylaid even more so than other travelers north of Karse on up to Tarsh?

Also I was reading about Jaransbyrig? Where is it in relation to Backford and Milran? 

 

In 1600, there would likely be Eytries merchants and some Seven Mothers residents. The roads are under the protection of the Prince of Sartar, who punishes those who screw with caravans. Regardless of whether they follow Issaries or Etyries.