Backford Aeolian Campaign

[Erol of Backford]

So Lunar Eytries merchants are actively spying on everything from troop movements, leadership activity and the supply chain while their brethren are in progress with the Sartar invasion up north and the Prince is going to protect them?! That doesn't make any sense. Maybe that's why the bloodline is being assassinated or more like it deserves to be so? What gives here? 

 

[Joerg]

6 hours ago, Erol of Backford said:

Would there be many Lunars in Karse in 1600? I assume not as they are probably not very well received being in progress with the invasion of Sartar and secretly being supported by Belintar the God-King... Eyries merchants would likely be waylaid even more so than other travelers north of Karse on up to Tarsh?

Also I was reading about Jaransbyrig? Where is it in relation to Backford and Milran? 

 

Jaransbyrig is a detail from my 1990ies playtest game with the Avalon Hill RQ4:AiG playtest rules. I had placed the town roughly at the M in that map.

The current interpretation has Milran as an alternative name for Pennel Ford, possibly a settlement near the battle-field.

Having Argrath and a bunch of wolf pirates move across the Choralinthor Bay and fight a battle in Heortland was always a bit problematic to fit into Argrath's bio. Sailing to Corflu and from there upriver to Pavis doesn't really have a natural stop there.

But then, Argrath leading a Fireblade-wielding unit from Caladraland has a bit of a weird story behind it, too. What did he do in Teshnos to get a handle on the volcano god?

[Jeff]

33 minutes ago, Erol of Backford said:

So Lunar Eytries merchants are actively spying on everything from troop movements, leadership activity and the supply chain while their brethren are in progress with the Sartar invasion up north and the Prince is going to protect them?! That doesn't make any sense. Maybe that's why the bloodline is being assassinated or more like it deserves to be so? What gives here? 

 

Because those Etyries merchants bring a ton of toll revenues to the Prince and help pay for his armies. Orlanth is neutral towards Etyries after all. And all merchants are spies. Few Gloranthans believe in total war - certainly not the central Genertelans.

[Joerg]

27 minutes ago, Erol of Backford said:

So Lunar Eytries merchants are actively spying on everything from troop movements, leadership activity and the supply chain while their brethren are in progress with the Sartar invasion up north and the Prince is going to protect them?! That doesn't make any sense. Maybe that's why the bloodline is being assassinated or more like it deserves to be so? What gives here? 

You cannot have international trade without snoopy foreigners visiting, and sending home intel. Traders live on this kind of information, and many will keep such knowledge close to themselves as knowledge means profits.

My City of Carse-based Karse translated the Keshian Caravanserai into Kostaddi sable-riding Etyries merchants as I found it difficult to fit camels into this lush land.Besides traders who remain in conversation with their partners in far-away lands, another group you can be paranoid about are refugees and exiles.

[dumuzid]

8 hours ago, Joerg said:

another group you can be paranoid about are refugees and exiles.

Any game set in C/Karse during or after the mid-1620s could make make plenty of hay out of the Western refugees fleeing the conquests of King Guilmarn, for instance.

[Erol of Backford]

This campaign is set to start at 1600 there wouldn't be many refugees or exiles unless they were from Tarsh or is there another war/conflict I am missing? Also why would any good Orlanthi bandit take issue with assaulting Lunars when they would perceive the Lunars as conducting religious genocide up north? Besides what caravans from the Lunar heartland would be crossing the front lines of a war to get down to Karse?

[Jeff]

22 minutes ago, Erol of Backford said:

This campaign is set to start at 1600 there wouldn't be many refugees or exiles unless they were from Tarsh or is there another war/conflict I am missing? Also why would any good Orlanthi bandit take issue with assaulting Lunars when they would perceive the Lunars as conducting religious genocide up north? Besides what caravans from the Lunar heartland would be crossing the front lines of a war to get down to Karse?

In 1600 Sartar is ruled by Prince Terasarin, whose wealth and power comes from his control of the booming trade between the Holy Country and the Lunar Empire (Prax is a topping). To control that trade and make money off it, you need to first have that trade, which means that merchant caravans need to be able to safely travel on your roads (of course they need to pay you for it). Given that the trade is with the Lunar Empire, many of those merchants are going to belong to the Etyries cult. Orlanth has no beef with Etyries (any more than with Yelmalio, Lodril, or other neutral cults). So the Prince - who has dangerous companions, Telmori bodyguards, Humakti, and mercenaries - says travellers on MY roads are under MY protection. Those who assault travellers on my roads under my protection are assault me - and I am Orlanth Rex.

And Sartar's roads were famed for their comfort and safety. 

[g33k]

15 hours ago, Erol of Backford said:

So Lunar Eytries merchants are actively spying on everything from troop movements, leadership activity and the supply chain while their brethren are in progress with the Sartar invasion up north and the Prince is going to protect them?! That doesn't make any sense. Maybe that's why the bloodline is being assassinated or more like it deserves to be so? What gives here? 

I think that's too military-supremecist / simplistic an approach; the military considerations are not the only ones, nor necessarily even the highest ones.

As mentioned by Jeff, the trade issues (and personal reputation of the Prince, and famed safety of the Prince's Highways) are higher priorities than any "intel" most traders could gain (if they wanted, the Lunars could probably get about as much from a few dozen pseudo-hunters spread through the landscape (intel moving much faster, not burdened by caravan-speed!)... and they wouldn't be paying any tolls!)

Additionally, if the Prince knows the Etyries are spying, he can spy on them (much easier to keep track of merchants at caravans, than hunters ghosting through the wilds).  And maybe, if it seems the Etyries has learned something critical, conduct a discreet assassination (or theft, or whatever), to stop that critical bit from getting to the Lunar authorities.

[Erol of Backford]

Even while the Lunar troops are pillaging crucifying Sartarites and stealing from any Issaries traders they bump into? Maybe he was soft and partly the reason he was assassinated?

Militarily-supremacism? When on what planet has a nation allowed trade to continue on their land or waters by an aggressor power who is killing their people? Look to the first two World Wars or during any other conflict, the trade vessels of even neutral powers were searched, seized and or sunk when trading with an enemy nation..

Someone please site where out of the goodness of Prince Terasarin's heart he says "even though my people are being butchered by the kind and benevolent Lunars its OK for the them to move freely through our lands and crucify my people"?

Edited December 17, 2021 by Erol of Backford

[Jeff]

 

7 minutes ago, Erol of Backford said:

Even while the Lunar troops are pillaging crucifying Sartarites and stealing from any Issaries traders they bump into? Maybe he was soft and partly the reason he was assassination.

 

In 1600? The Lunar Army is doing nothing of the sort. King Moirades makes a lot of money off the trade as well.

[jajagappa]

6 minutes ago, Erol of Backford said:

Even while the Lunar troops are pillaging crucifying Sartarites and stealing from any Issaries traders they bump into?

Not sure where you get the pillaging and stealing in 1600?

Lunar Invasion doesn't occur until 1602, and that's a conquest that leaves Sartar without a king.  At first, Lunars likely are just taking tribute from the tribes (or stirring up feuds between tribes), and encouraging tribes to adopt Lunar-friendly kings. 

At some point, there's enough attacks upon the Lunars to get Orlanth banned, and Lunar patrols targeting Orlanthi, but that's likely after the Righteous Wind rebellion and Starbrow's rebellion.

[Erol of Backford]

I was reading the invasion starts earlier than 1602, I'll find it...

Edited December 17, 2021 by Erol of Backford

[Erol of Backford]

The Well of Daliath shows Sartar being invaded in 1591, maybe its skirmishes, boarder raids, etc.?

Maybe its a typo? Or this isn't canon?

https://wellofdaliath.chaosium.com/home/gloranthan-documents/timeline-dragonpass/1561-1602-conflict-with-the-lunar-empire/

Edited December 17, 2021 by Erol of Backford

[Jeff]

7 minutes ago, Erol of Backford said:

I was reading the invasion starts in 1600 from Tarsh, I'll find it...

That page is a collection of references. I believe this refers to an attempted Lunar military invasion of Sartar in 1591 (led by the Tarshites most likely) but it was defeated and it was defeated by the Sartarites led by Prince Terasarin. This sort of conflict occurs a lot. 

[scott-martin]

1 hour ago, Erol of Backford said:

stealing from any Issaries traders they bump into

I need to know more!

[Erol of Backford]

What would be anyone's guess as to the composition of the Lunar troops that partook in "Sartar Invasion Expeditionary Force" 1591?

Tarshite armies are typically Orlanthi in composition. Several regiments of Lunar professional soldiers are maintained by the king and Lunar temples, and form the core of the Lunar Provincial Army. Tarsh can also call on two regiments of Yelmalio pikemen. (GtG p.170)

Being that Tarshites were likely the majority of the forces attempting the Sartar Invasion of 1591 would Gordius Silverus or Jorad Sideburn been part of the leadership?

Where would the battle(s) have taken place?

Also, just curious, what are the details of Kallyr Starbrow's death? (I saw the illustration on p.169 in the GtG of Starbrow surrendering... when looking for Tarshites in the Guide.)

Was it anything like Vercingetorix, who was imprisoned in the Tullianum in Rome for almost six years before being publicly displayed in the first of Caesar's four triumphs in 46 BCE. He was ceremonially strangled at the Temple of Jupiter Optimus Maximus after the triumph. A plaque in the Tullianum indicates that he was beheaded in 49 BCE.

[Oracle]

20 minutes ago, Erol of Backford said:

Also, just curious, what are the details of Kallyr Starbrow's death? (I saw the illustration on p.169 in the GtG of Starbrow surrendering... when looking for Tarshites in the Guide.)

Was it anything like Vercingetorix, who was imprisoned in the Tullianum in Rome for almost six years before being publicly displayed in the first of Caesar's four triumphs in 46 BCE. He was ceremonially strangled at the Temple of Jupiter Optimus Maximus after the triumph. A plaque in the Tullianum indicates that he was beheaded in 49 BCE.

Not at all. After surrendering in 1613 at the end of Starbrow's Rebellion Kallyr went into exile to King Broyan in Whitewall/Heortland. She participates in the Heroquest, which returns the Sky Boat in 1624. After the Dragonrise in 1625 she raises the tribes and defeats the Lunar Army in the Battle at Dangerford. She is killed in the Battle of Queens in 1626.

On the other hand the other guy in the illustration, King Hofstaring Treeleaper, refused to surrender, and so he was hit by strange Lunar magic and drawn into a Lunar hell ...

Edited December 18, 2021 by Oracle

[Jeff]

Most likely this would have been led by King Moirades and perhaps officers appointed by Appius Luxius. Vostor Blacktooth might have been the senior commander - he would be almost 60 years old if he was still alive. That's pretty old for a military leader (comparable to Fazzur's present age), but he was King Phargentes' right hand man and part of Moirades inner council. 

Vostor's third son Wassail was definitely there (Farrad and Goslem died fighting in 1582). He was quick to rise in the Lunar priesthood and helped Moirades arrange the difficult magic which helped kill Sartar prince Terasarin in 1600. Fazzur was likely present, but at 26 years old, he's likely only leading a single regiment. 

I doubt that Jorad Sideburn and Gordius Silverus were leaders of prominence at this point. They might actually be part of Fazzur's little entourage.

[Joerg]

16 hours ago, Erol of Backford said:

This campaign is set to start at 1600 there wouldn't be many refugees or exiles unless they were from Tarsh or is there another war/conflict I am missing?

Tarsh is one possible source of refugees, yes. Terasarin built the city of Alone to house one group of those, but others may have chosen to put a little more distance between themselves and Moirades.

There is always a chance that people loyal to a noble house in the Lunar Empire find their patrons on the losing side of a Dart Competition, and that they may find a breath of Sea air healthier than staying on their lands.

Teshnos has seen quite the uproar when the Calyz priest Harstar conquered Melib in 1589 and then was censured for it. The reaction to the Quenching of Gio where Pubnashab ordered every third person in the city killed is more recent (1618), but for fire worshippers to consider such a sacrilegious act the tension must have simmered longer. But then, Melib with its Holy Country presence was a lot closer for these folk to run to. (But then, also for any assassins sent after them.)

Ralios may be as bad with its intrigues and secret societies as the Dart Competitions of the Lunar Empire, and the Rokari ambitions for it may send people into exile, too. Not everybody is a Prince Aamor becoming a sorcerer-knight and heroquester in Fornoar, just in the back-garden of his oppressive conqueror.

Wolf Pirates have been troubling the coasts of Genertela for a while, now. While the Threestep Islands appear to have been settled only in 1605, the Ginorth colony off Old Seshnela has been established since the Wolf Pirates broke away from the Vadeli. Their coastal raids may have pushed people away from those raided lands.

The conquest of the Kumanku archipelago by the Fonritians from Kareeshtu sent a group of Kumankans off onto the seas, ultimately raiding Teshnos for slaves before settling down on Teleos, founding or taking over the Place of Cloth Trading among the Purple tribe of Teleos. While Karse would have been a detour for them, other compatriots may have made it there.

The Vadeli conquests of the Pamaltelan northwestern coast may have caused nobles to flee those lands, too.

 

Problematic refugees usually are nobles of some kind. Like Duke Raus, for instance.

 

16 hours ago, Erol of Backford said:

Also why would any good Orlanthi bandit take issue with assaulting Lunars when they would perceive the Lunars as conducting religious genocide up north? Besides what caravans from the Lunar heartland would be crossing the front lines of a war to get down to Karse?

Throughout the reign of the Sartar dynasty, there have been traders carrying goods from coastal Genertela through Saird into the Empire, and the other way too. Lunar Tarsh was a lot smaller before Phargentes became king during Jarolar's reign, just after Jarolar had positioned the kingdom in opposition to the Lunar cause in the battle that killed Phargentes' brother Philigos. But Phargentes had already been profiteering from the same trade as the House of Sartar in his long years as Provincial Overseer before reclaiming Tarsh, and after re-taking Furthest, he was as interested in keeping the Spice flowing as was the House of Sartar.

Would a caravan travel all the way from the Heartlands to Karse, and back?

Occasionally yes, but think of the spread of merchants like the Polo brothers exploring the Silk Road. Transportation was not done by Venetians, but the trading was organized by them or their contacts along the route, and some would travel all the way and visit. 

I would be very surprised if 1582 did not see Etyries merchants establishing a caravanserai and trading office in Karse. Others may have been in the Holy Country even earlier, e.g. following the Battle of Quintus Vale which saw a cooperation of the Sylilan Lunars and the Orlanthi kingdom of Tarsh against the Opili nation horse nomads in the early 1400s, but that trade may have gone through Rhigos instead, the established end of the Manirian Road.

 

Jeff offered a breakdown of trade in Kralori silks since the Opening. Quite obviously, there was no silk trade worth mentioning between Kralorela and Kethaela prior to 1587, when the attempt to demonstrate Kethaelan naval superiority in the Suam Chow resulted in the destruction of that expeditionary fleet, but the first ships that had sailed from Lur Nop back to Melib and Kethaela had brought silks, and more silks followed.

Prior to the trade in silk or other eastern luxuries, or coastal Pamaltelan luxuries, there were native items and western items that got traded into the Empire. The Syndics Ban cut off the Lunar iron trade through Fronela in 1499, which made Dragon Pass the only viable route for that commodity. (The Dorastor route would take a much higher percentage of the material out of the caravans. While still profitable, the margin was a lot lower than the longer way around the Rockwoods.) Other western items became unavailable, too.

Of native items, the bounty of the shallow seas included material like pearls, mother-of-pearl, purple, tortoise-shell, ambergris, and possibly seafood delicacies that could be preserved to survive the transport. Then there was wine, and possibly plant oil. Or (bachelor) newtling tail meat, probably already cooked into a paté and transported under salt brine.

Textiles other than silk don't appear to have played a roe in long-distance trade. Wools are abundant everywhere, whether from goats, sheep or other beasts, although the less itchy quality of southern (warm weather) wool may have made some trading worth the while.

Dyes, resins, spices, possibly somewhat exotic salts, drugs are other low volume high value goods that nobility on both sides of Dragon Pass would have a demand for, to outdo one another in ostentation for the glory of the cult and deity.

Then there are ancient artifacts which may have become a craze or a magical focus  in demand. Even Temertain's interest in Brithini iron statuary may have been a legitimate interest into a trading item.

[Erol of Backford]

7 hours ago, Joerg said:

Would a caravan travel all the way from the Heartlands to Karse, and back?

Occasionally yes, but think of the spread of merchants like the Polo brothers exploring the Silk Road. Transportation was not done by Venetians, but the trading was organized by them or their contacts along the route, and some would travel all the way and visit.

This makes sense and so the actual evil vile Lunars wouldn't be physically travelling through Sartar. They'd still need to figure out how to cross the "front lines" or "no mans land" with trade goods between where the Lunar forces and the Sartarites are camped...

What is the year of the original Apple Lane Adventure pack and how old is Gringle in 1600?

Also where might a Half-Elf be from that is a trader/merchant running to the Heortland? Are there any in Nochet with trade ties heading west from there?

Edited December 18, 2021 by Erol of Backford

[Jeff]

1 hour ago, Erol of Backford said:

This makes sense and so the actual evil vile Lunars wouldn't be physically travelling through Sartar. They'd still need to figure out how to cross the "front lines" or "no mans land" with trade goods between where the Lunar forces and the Sartarites are camped...

What is the year of the original Apple Lane Adventure pack and how old is Gringle in 1600?

Also where might a Half-Elf be from that is a trader/merchant running to the Heortland? Are there any in Nochet with trade ties heading west from there?

Joerg is wrong here. Merchants regularly travel between Karse and Furthest. Most are Issaries cultists, some are Etyries cultists. During the Lunar Occupation, Etyries cultists were favoured by the authorities (but at the same time the Issaries cultists were often perfectly willing to elect an Etyries cultist as the market priest). With Liberation, the Issaries cultists enjoy that favour.

Again, it is worth emphasising that Etyries and Orlanth are neutral towards each other. 

[Erol of Backford]

Understood that Etyries would flow between Karse and Furthest when Sartar is not at war with the Lunar Empire or after Sartar has been conquered and under the Lunar yoke. 

I am not seeing Etyries traders moving through Central Sartar while the Lunar invasion is in progress, as cities are being overrun, while Lunars move south without being molested?

Would the US have let German bakeries drop off strudel, elevator components or whatever in New York via merchant ship to be sent to California and on to an Asian market? Trade would be utterly disrupted from Furthest to Karse while the conflict was progressing. Wasn't the need for a port the main reason Corflu was established because they couldn't get through Sartar and the Holy Country until after they were conquered/invaded? There wasn't an easy way to get goods through the Holy Country without paying high tolls and so they invaded?   

[AndreJarosch]

1 hour ago, Erol of Backford said:

This makes sense and so the actual evil vile Lunars wouldn't be physically travelling through Sartar. They'd still need to figure out how to cross the "front lines" or "no mans land" with trade goods between where the Lunar forces and the Sartarites are camped...

What is the year of the original Apple Lane Adventure pack and how old is Gringle in 1600?

1a) Greg played the Original RQ2 "Appel Lane" somewhere in between 1610 and 1612 (but surely before Starbrows Rebellion). 

1b) If you have a look at "Defending Apple Lane" in the GM screemn Pack, set in 1625, Brightflower is 24 years old. 
In the Original "RQ2 Apple Lane" she is 13 years old. 
Since we don´t know when her birthday is the difference is in between 11 and 12 years = 1612/1613

1c) Conclusion: 1612


2a) Gringles Age: 
In "Apple Lane" it is stated that Gringle arrived in Apple Lane 37 years ago: 
1612-37 years = 1575

2b) Gringles Age is not given in RQ2s Apple Lane*. 

* Yes, we have an Age of 56 years given in RQ3 Apple Lane, but the ages given in that edition are no relyable. 

2c) No clue
 

Edited December 18, 2021 by AndreJarosch

[M Helsdon]

It's worth noting that in our ancient world, merchants carried not just trade, but messages, and diplomatic letters. In Glorantha, Issaries and I imagine Etyries merchants are going to fulfil the same functions, and there are going to be heralds as well. It was fairly rare for the authorities of Rome, China, Bactria, the various Persian empires to interfere with trade and traders, because they paid numerous tolls and taxes, and carried luxuries the nobility wanted. Rulers tended to protect the trade routes, regardless of where the merchants were from... You have to consider the Greek and later Roman trade stations in southern India...

Sometimes trade could be blocked. I don't recall the location, but during a periodic conflict along the Silk Road, trade and the carrying of letters was stopped, and when the Chinese fort was abandoned, the bags of letters were left, and have provided a unique view of the flow of trade - some of the letters were from merchants trapped on the wrong side of the border during hostilities, asking their relatives for funds to buy a 'visa' to allow them to come home.

So I believe that Issaries and Etyries merchants are likely travelling back and forwards between the Mirrorsea and at least as far north as Mirin's Cross. Spies? Traders are going to know their routes, the state of the roads, the location of waystations and forts, when and how common patrols are, because this is essential knowledge for their business. I wouldn't be surprised if it isn't just competition, but cooperation between members of the two cults, as each can help grease the wheels of commerce in their homelands.

Now, merchants wandering off the usual routes are likely to be viewed with suspicion.

If there's war, all travellers are going to be suspect, but for merchants there's the risk that goods may be taken by either side... Paying higher tolls and bribes to ease the way may be required, and the campaigning season coincides with much of the trading season. If trade stops completely, it will be detrimental to economies, and may make paying those mercenaries difficult. No wise ruler is going to risk the effects of total war.

I imagine there may be a magical dimension to some roads such as those of Sartar, as they were built for both internal and external trade. Interfering with trade on those routes might be unwise. 

Edited December 18, 2021 by M Helsdon

[Richard S.]

Etyries merchants aren't all going to be some sort of Lunar agents. Sure, they're Lunars, but they're civilians not soldiers, and probably pretty neutral as long as the trade routes stay open. Especially with how total warfare isn't really a thing in Glorantha (discounting age-ending cataclysms and such probably) I don't feel like war and trade are as mutually exclusive as they might be in some of our recent big wars.