A house

[Squaredeal Sten]

When the circumstances are right for Adventurers to want to get the use of a house, how do you price that - or handle it in other ways?  We can limit the question to Sartar and surrounding lands if you want.

I do note that in general land tenure is from the local Earth temple, probably through the clan or village, and not by sale and registering a deed at a county courthouse.

I would expect that in cities it might be possible to sub-lease, though.  In Heortling villages there may not be many vacant dwellings, since steads will have longhouses which are the dwellings of extended families, who will always need them; and cotters will have less impressive huts or cottages, but will need them to shelter themselves. 

The RQG book has no standard cost on renting a whole house, only costs for inns. (p.413) - but I would presume that rent on an average house would not be greater than a year's entire Free SOL of 60L which covers an entire household.  Presumably this would also vary between rural and urban areas. 

 

 

Edited May 17, 2021 by Squaredeal Sten
spelling, my nemesis.

[soltakss]

In an Orlanthi Clan you would not rent a house, you would be provided one of the empty houses. If there are no empty houses, the Clan would build one and you could live there. I play that all farmers tithe 10% to the Clan, but that is normally taken care of in sacred Time Accounting.

In somewhere like Pavis, however, the normal clan structure breaks down and you have to rent an apartment in a building, usually, although you can own one. Pavis had some living costs, I think.

But, generally, the cost of renting etc is subsumed into your Cost of Living, you just pay that in Sacred Time and everything is OK.

[French Desperate WindChild]

based on dorastor campaign, years ago, I would follow @soltakss answer except for one thing:

Of course when the clan's ring wants to settle a new area, the clan builds the houses, then, there are empty houses

but if there is no empty house (because the ring's priority is not to build), the clan may allow you (if you have good reasons) to find a place, clear it then build an house. Potentially clan individuals may help you but that is their choice.

 

I have absolutly no idea about an orlanthy city, Is it the same rules ? they may have different laws, not clear for me

[Joerg]

In a Sartarite cities, all building plots belong to one of the stakeholders in the city - the confederated tribes, the major temples, the guilds, the Prince, and possibly a few at the discretion of the City Rex other than his own domicile. The Lunars used to demand the royal land and probably would have demanded land and houses from each of the stakeholders, too. With them gone, previous ownership would have reverted.

The owners of the plots and the buildings on them will rent them out to households.

I am not entirely clear who gains ownership of a building erected or modified on land belonging to one of the stakeholders. Someone who erects a building or outbuildings for a workshop will expect a) long tenure and b) possibly some recognition for the value added.

But then, it may not be an individual but a guild that takes the rent of another stakeholder's plot.

In Orlanthi law, individual possession of anything is pretty much an afterthought. Bloodlines might have it easier to manifest a claim, but the usual legal entity is the clan, guild, temple, or some superstructure like the tribe, the city, or the Prince (aka the Orlanth Rex Sartar temple).

 

Depending on how soon after the Dragonrise your party is looking for a place, there may be places just vacated by Lunars available for rent.

[Akhôrahil]

1 hour ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

but if there is no empty house (because the ring's priority is not to build), the clan may allow you (if you have good reasons) to find a place, clear it then build an house. Potentially clan individuals may help you but that is their choice.

This makes a lot of sense to me. The Ring is unlikely to just a build a house and present it to you, but it may tell some people to help out with materials and work. If the Ring isn't interested even in this, but you're in decent standing, your neighbors will probably help out.

In the town, pay in cash (or rent). The theoretical price of a farm with 80 acres is 500L, so compare the city house against that. 

[Nick Brooke]

We have several pages at the back of Citizens of the Lunar Empire (p.156-161) about standards of living and paying the rent for an apartment in Glamour, but here's the thing: those rules are designed to propel adventurers into dire financial straits which will compel them to go adventuring, rather than creating an authentically-simulated Bronze Age economy. So unless you're one of the better-off citizens, you will grasp at any opportunity the GM gives you to make a few quick clacks, because the alternative is eviction once Ureus the Valued (backed by Yeltsov the Char-Un) comes banging on your apartment door on Freezeday of Disorder Week every season.

One of my comments to Chris while he was writing those rules went much along these lines:

Quote

Some of your readers will need things spelling out.

e.g: BY DESIGN, if you are Poor there is a 5% chance you aren't worrying about the Rent, a 90% chance you are worrying and will need to do something this season to make sure you can pay the Rent, and a 5% chance you are teetering on the brink of eviction.

But also BY DEFAULT, if you're doing an Adventure every season (as RQG expects), that should make it easier to pay the Rent. Either you make money adventuring, or else you earn favours adventuring that you turn into money.

Some people may get hung up on "if I'm adventuring the rules say it's harder for me to make a living." It will help to defuse that by saying "NO, YOU ARE MISSING THE POINT." (Those people overthink things. If you say, "For game purposes, this system has been designed so your players usually have to do something they're not comfortable with every season, which is to say... an Adventure!," then they will be happier)

 

[Akhôrahil]

4 minutes ago, Nick Brooke said:

Some people may get hung up on "if I'm adventuring the rules say it's harder for me to make a living."

This is likely one reason why the RQG rules are pretty lenient about adventuring time, allowing you to spend 3/8ths of your time adventuring without it cutting into income from your regular job at all - they don't want to discourage adventuring.

[Darius West]

16 hours ago, Squaredeal Sten said:

I do note that in general land tenure is from the local Earth temple, probably through the clan or village, and not by sale and registering a deed at a county courthouse.

Straight up, land ownership is a fraught issue within an Orlanthi clan and can erupt into a feud inside the clan or even outside the clan if handled poorly.  Characters belong to a clan's bloodline, and as such may be owed a portion of land as part of an inheritance.  If not, they can petition the Clan Ring for the right to clear and settle land within the Clan's territory, assuming that land is even available.  Clan warriors (Weaponthanes) may well not own homes of their own, and will live in the Chief's hall and at the Clan's expense instead.  The supposition in building a house is that you intend to work the land.  Help in establishing a house will thus be much more forthcoming if the character is getting married, as the expectation is that the new couple will soon be raising a family and contributing to the survival of the clan.  Women are far more tied to the land than men in Orlanthi society.  This is not to say that you can't potentially barter livestock, coin, or other goods for land ownership, but it is wise to do so with full public scrutiny so if you feel cheated by receiving infertile land, you can rain public censure on the person who cheated you.  

The settling of land means claiming it from the wilderness.  This involves hard labor, tools, and quite possibly an ox cart or two for hauling away rocks and felled trees for timber. and will take months, depending on how wild the land is.  Of course timber is a key component in building a house, but it will need to be cut into planks to be useful.  Of course it is also possible to build in stone, but that is more expensive.  it costs 60L per year to hire a Carpenter, and 100L per year to hire a Mason, unless the character has skills in excess of 50%.  You will likely want to hire a mason for a portion of they year if you plan to have access to the modern convenience of a working chimney.  I would estimate that a decent sized wooden house with a stone chimney should cost about 200L or 10 head of cattle, using locally sourced materials and nothing fancy.  This doesn't include other important buildings like barns or wells or fences, just the basic unfurnished house.

[Squaredeal Sten]

21 hours ago, Darius West said:

.......  I would estimate that a decent sized wooden house with a stone chimney should cost about 200L or 10 head of cattle, using locally sourced materials and nothing fancy.  This doesn't include other important buildings like barns or wells or fences, just the basic unfurnished house.

So the modest  house, - maybe not so modest because it has a chimney, which is an innovation  - AFTER acquiring the right to build on the land, costs about 200L to construct.

Then if capital gets a 10% rate of return it should rent for 20L per year.  If the tenant handles maintenance.  Plus whatever the land tenure cost is?

 

 

 

 

Edited May 18, 2021 by Squaredeal Sten
correction

[Bren]

10% is 20L.

Edited May 18, 2021 by Bren

[French Desperate WindChild]

7 hours ago, Squaredeal Sten said:

So the modest  house, - maybe not so modest because it has a chimney, which is an innovation  - AFTER acquiring the right to build on the land, costs about 200L to construct.

Then if capital gets a 10% rate of return it should rent for 10L per year.  If the tenant handles maintenance.  Plus whatever the land tenure cost is?

 

 

 

 

for me, don't use any % rate of return:

you want a tenant to organize your farm:

1) get the land's right

2) build the house for your tenants (more expensive it is, better is your tenant = manage household / farm / loyalty to the pc )

3) use the rules = p 423 = 40L / year

[Akhôrahil]

30 minutes ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

for me, don't use any % rate of return:

you want a tenant to organize your farm:

1) get the land's right

2) build the house for your tenants (more expensive it is, better is your tenant = manage household / farm / loyalty to the pc )

3) use the rules = p 423 = 40L / year

I think this is reasonable (and you can probably say that the cost of the house and the land comes out as 500L in total, if you want to abstract things).

It’s worth noting that the 40L income from a tenant farm valued at 500L comes out as 8% ROI, which seems like it’s in the right range.

[Kloster]

2 hours ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

for me, don't use any % rate of return:

you want a tenant to organize your farm:

1) get the land's right

2) build the house for your tenants (more expensive it is, better is your tenant = manage household / farm / loyalty to the pc )

3) use the rules = p 423 = 40L / year

Completely agree here.

1 hour ago, Akhôrahil said:

(and you can probably say that the cost of the house and the land comes out as 500L in total, if you want to abstract things)

Also agree here.

[Akhôrahil]

Perhaps as a guesstimate through analogy then, in order to make a Free standard of living as a landlord, you would need housing worth 500L to 1000L?

[Akhôrahil]

I read one source claiming that cost of housing made up 5-10% of cost of living in Roman antiquity for a ”respectable worker”, but presumably this varies by a lot (and is on an individual level, so likely more for a family).

(’Allen, ‘How prosperous’, 5. For the cost of housing, see ibid. (5-10 percent of household spending in later periods); Drexhage, Preise, 78-91, 450-2 (14 to 25 days’ worth of wages sufficient to rent a home for a year).’)

Edited May 18, 2021 by Akhôrahil

[Squaredeal Sten]

8 hours ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

for me, don't use any % rate of return:

you want a tenant to organize your farm:

1) get the land's right

2) build the house for your tenants (more expensive it is, better is your tenant = manage household / farm / loyalty to the pc )

3) use the rules = p 423 = 40L / year

MM, no, I was asking about just a house, not a farm.  The farm would seem to be a different and more restricted case, as it assumes the adventurer is a farmer. 

[Squaredeal Sten]

2 hours ago, Akhôrahil said:

Perhaps as a guesstimate through analogy then, in order to make a Free standard of living as a landlord, you would need housing worth 500L to 1000L?

That makes sense to me, though it doesn't deal with the question of what the landlord may owe in order to have use of the land that the housing stands on.  This does suggest that a successful adventurer might invest in an apartment building.  That's a useful thought, Akhorahil. 

[French Desperate WindChild]

24 minutes ago, Squaredeal Sten said:

MM, no, I was asking about just a house, not a farm.  The farm would seem to be a different and more restricted case, as it assumes the adventurer is a farmer. 

I may have misunderstood

Is the point about how much must an adventurer pay to live in a house ?

In this case, it seems to me easier :

use the standard living (p422) for sure it is not only the house, but everything (food, clothes, ..) Then add standard living of your servants if you want any.

 

 

[Akhôrahil]

5 hours ago, Squaredeal Sten said:

That makes sense to me, though it doesn't deal with the question of what the landlord may owe in order to have use of the land that the housing stands on. 

Perhaps another (weak, admittedly) reasoning by analogy - if you run a farm, you owe 20% of income to Orlanth & Ernalda (assuming Dragon Pass Orlanthi). Perhaps 20% of income to the City God and city leadership (probably much the same thing) in the case of commercial housing? This would be a combination of general city tax and the cost of the land, but maybe one can be sorted out from the other in some other way?

Edited May 18, 2021 by Akhôrahil

[Squaredeal Sten]

2 hours ago, Akhôrahil said:

Perhaps another (weak, admittedly) reasoning by analogy - if you run a farm, you owe 20% of income to Orlanth & Ernalda (assuming Dragon Pass Orlanthi). Perhaps 20% of income to the City God and city leadership (probably much the same thing) in the case of of commercial housing? This would be a combination of general city tax and the cost of the land, but maybe one can be sorted out from the other in some other way?

Or maybe that 20% doesn't have to be sorted out, the city leadership being essentially the same as leadership of the city god cult.  The city also gets other revenue, likely taxing at the gate and probably form the market.  Yes, that's a good idea, assuming 20% of the rent goes off the top  in tithes -

Which means that to make a net 60L a year you need a gross 75L in rental income.  So at 10% return a landlord needs about 750L worth of building(s).

[Darius West]

On 5/18/2021 at 10:28 AM, Squaredeal Sten said:

So the modest  house, - maybe not so modest because it has a chimney, which is an innovation  - AFTER acquiring the right to build on the land, costs about 200L to construct.

What do you call a house without a chimney?  A hut.  I believe most Orlanthi houses have hearths, and a hearth requires a chimney.

On 5/18/2021 at 10:28 AM, Squaredeal Sten said:

AFTER acquiring the right to build on the land, costs about 200L to construct.

Then if capital gets a 10% rate of return it should rent for 20L per year.  If the tenant handles maintenance.  Plus whatever the land tenure cost is?

Yes, that seems fair.  On the other hand, relying on the tenant to maintain the property is going to prove wobbly in a court.

[Akhôrahil]

6 minutes ago, Darius West said:

What do you call a house without a chimney?  A hut.  I believe most Orlanthi houses have hearths, and a hearth requires a chimney.

Lots of bronze age houses don't. The smoke needs to ventilate somehow, but a chimney isn't necessary. Note how in this one, the smoke goes out sideways, with an overhang to stop the rain. Note how the word for this, a vindauga ("wind-eye"), is the source of the word "window".

Chimneys are high-tech stuff brought to Sartar by the Lunars, I believe.

Edited May 19, 2021 by Akhôrahil

[Darius West]

1 minute ago, Akhôrahil said:

Lots of bronze age houses don't. The smoke needs to ventilate somehow, but a chimney isn't necessary. Note how in this one, the smoke goes out sideways, with an overhang to stop the rain.

Chimneys are high-tech stuff brought to Sartar by the Lunars, I believe.

Looks like a hut to me.  A big hut, to be fair, but a hut nonetheless.

[Akhôrahil]

2 minutes ago, Darius West said:

Looks like a hut to me.  A big hut, to be fair, but a hut nonetheless.

It was the standard large home in Scandinavia for thousands of years.

This is how iron and viking age long-houses work as well.

Edited May 19, 2021 by Akhôrahil

[Joerg]

The smoke collecting in the rafters above the hearthfire serves to conserve ham, skins, etc.

You don't need a chimney for a Mahome fire. On the other hand, you cannot have a Gustbran fire inside without a chimney (or without summoning Oakfed).

A thane's house would have a bonfire (Gustbran) for central heating and lighting, as a statement of luxury, and thus it needs a chimney.

Chimneys are an old Orlanthi technology commonly found in ruins from the Dawn and Second Age, and only the most backward hicks (like those of the Varmandi who never served as mercenaries) would even consider seeing one worth the mention. Every baking house has a chimney, every professional kiln has one (there may be pit kilns for low quality pottery, but on the whole Ernaldan pottery is quite sophisticated). The Sartarite masons use mortar, which means burning chalk - another Gustbran technology.

 

Fires inside are dangerous, as they may emit the occasional flake of glowing fuel rising into the rafters. Rather than external chimneys, hearth fires might be fitted with chimney-like covers made from clay-covered wicker, sparing the need for one person to remain awake at night for hearthfire watch.