Building a house/temple/fort

[Adaras]

Hi everyone 😄

I was wondering if you lovely sages could assist me in figuring out what it would cost for a player to build a house, temple and fort? 

My group is going to migrate soon and they are going to built a new place for their clan, and I was thinking maybe there are some good rules for building and such 😄

[Godlearner]

Cost a fluid thing. It depends a lot on the structure, who is building it, where, and what materials are near by. A creation of a home can be a HeroQuest (we have one example in the Holiday Dorastor: Spider Woods supplement). Can you be a bit more specific as to the background of the group.

[Adaras]

Hi Godlearner

They are a minor clan part of a tribe that is being usurped by a Solanthi Warlord. 

So they have decided to migrate into a mountainous region like the greek mountains. So they will have to build homes and temples and such. But as the story progresses the characters (just passed their rite of passage) will become more important in the clan and might have to start big projects like larger temples and fort for the clan 🙂

[Godlearner]

If they are starting from scratch, I would suggest they start with a homestead or longhouse. This will be a community project. Its not so much the cost but rather an effort.

We describe the Laying of the Hearthstone with the following Stations

• Settling (choosing a location)
• Gathering the People
• Preparation
• Building
• Feasting

 

[Joerg]

Building pioneer farmhouses requires first and foremost manpower and some tools. Probably a redsmith and/or a few stone knappers to keep those tools operable.

Stone axes are fairly durable and cost a lot less in terms of material. With sufficient local talent, no extra purchases are required. Bronze axes on the other hand may be reworked into military assets after setting up a new home.

Manpower may be hired, but will quite likely come from the clan.

 

Doing all of this clandestinely will be a bit tricky. They probably will need to supply the warlord with a couple of warriors for his raids to evade suspicion - one possible job for young clan members.

The other role would be to go ahead and prepare the new settlement area. Declaring that as their new high pasture area might allow them to do some preparation without anybody suspecting much.

 

The year(s) before the move, the clan would need to trade for future seedstock and enough food to bring them through a year without any harvest. Ideally already stored in secret at their destination. Even more ideally, they could have prepared fields in the new place with some winter crops ready to be harvested upon arrival.

 

For starters, they ought to send logging teams to create a sufficient stock of building lumber while rudimentary clearing some of the ground they are about to settle - ideally early in Storm Season as that is when the trees have the least water. A few oxen teams to collect the lumber, too.

Sea Season should see the last sowing in their old homes - or at least leave the impression thereof. Some of the herds could then already be transferred into the new settlement area. High pastures may vary over the years.

Log house barracks will probably be a good idea already for the first teams coming into the new area.

People will have to live in temporary quarters for quite a while. A move with foresight will create temporary quarters which later can serve as utility buildings, or possibly be reworked into an ostentatious communal hall or similar.

 

Campaign season might be a good time to transfer all movable property or at least all necessities and valuables onto wagons or beasts of burden, and then make the trek away from that warlord. Purchasing or loaning such transport would be a major expense, building it DIY would at least consume a lot of manpower and pre-made parts. OTOH, setting up an industry for wagons or breeding beasts of burdens (e.g. donkeys) in advance might make this innocent.

If there are other people inhabiting the lands en route to the new place, mutual assurances should be made just in time. Tribute might have to be paid.

Depending on the subterfuge the clan wants to build up, they could stage a couple of stead-burnings in their old place, in case of doubt to have an excuse for leaving. Damaging the fields (that received hardly any of the real seeds) may be another such excuse.

 

Transferring the wyter might be a problem if the wyter has special ties to the old location. The Varmandi Thunder Oak might be quite problematic to move (although Create Wartree with quite a bit of Extension might work). Bribing the local spirits might be a task given to the herders and builders sent to the new place to prepare everything.

 

Creating places of worship will incur cost, as the gods expect quite a bit of ostentation. Specialist crafters may need to be hired to build such places, or could be married into the clan if the clan is ambitious.

 

So, what's the cost?

Acquiring transportation.

Acquiring tools.

Acquiring food for a year (and bringing the seedstock for the next year(s)).

A fair bit of magic to bless the future lands and harvests.

Some treasure to finance the new worship sites and their embellishment.

Tribute to those on the way, or possibly using up favors earned earlier, or having some allies or mercenaries to deal with troublesome hindrances.

 

Selling their old land is not really an option, unless there is a Trader Prince willing to take over the cultivated parts for tenants of his. Neighboring clans will probably wish them farewell while gleefully expanding into the better places left behind without any compensation, or perhaps for the favor of loaning some transportation or escort for part of the migration.

 

Building the actual houses will the least costly factor in that endeavor, IMO.

[French Desperate WindChild]

agreed with other.

I think if it is a community creating a site (and not some characters looking for their own domain) the main points are the time, the food, the protection (against seasons, beasts and neighbours)

Depending on what your players like, you may create a campaign based on some "events" every season and at the end of the year (aka 5 seasons + sacred time) the level of success would determine:

• how many people survived,
• how strong is the village (of course poor if they had nothing before, but are the houses well made or not)
• how efficient are the farmers
• how are the relationships with the neighbourhood.
• how happy are the gods and the ancestors

 

you can create a range from 0 to 20 (for example that is just an idea, except for people you know how many people you have, you may split by gender, children / adults. elders, warriors workers, priests, ...) and each scenario will "save" (if opposition) or "gain" (if meeting possible allies) some points

At the end of the year/campaign, less than 5, the community collapse (and pc may be cursed), at 10 they survived, more than 15 that is a great success and leaders (pc ?) are blessed by people and gods

[Bill the barbarian]

3 hours ago, Godlearner said:

Cost a fluid thing. It depends a lot on the structure, who is building it, where, and what materials are near by. A creation of a home can be a HeroQuest (we have one example in the Holiday Dorastor: Spider Woods supplement). Can you be a bit more specific as to the background of the group.

I suppose in a way it should always be a heroquest, if you want to invite the right gods and goddesses to live there! Cost is interesting seeing as you will never own the land or buildings, but will be granted the rights to them. So, I would imagine the cost is swearing allegiance/fealty/loyalty (looking for the right word) to the clan that has given you the rights to the land. If the lands should have spirits (tell me one without that the a clan would want to be building on) placating the spirits would be another cost (and a chance for some great adventure).

 

4 hours ago, Adaras said:

I was wondering if you lovely sages could assist me in figuring out what it would cost for a player to build a house, temple and fort? 

 

So, temples, the rules do list how many folk are required for maintaining (RQ RiG pages 283-285) religious buildings of various sizes. No prices, so perhaps until such rules appear one will have to think in terms of them being capital projects whose costs and rituals are shared amongst the worshipers. 

 

24 minutes ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

I think if it is a community creating a site (and not some characters looking for their own domain) the main points are the time, the food, the protection (against seasons, beasts and neighbours)

 

This is so...

24 minutes ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

• how many people survived,
• how strong is the village (of course poor if they had nothing before, but are the houses well made or not)
• how efficient are the farmers
• how are the relationships with the neighbourhood.
• how happy are the gods and the ancestors

this abstract makes it easier to play without actual costs in silver...

[Godlearner]

Quote

I suppose in a way it should always be a heroquest, if you want to invite the right gods and goddesses to live there! Cost is interesting seeing as you will never own the land or buildings, but will be granted the rights to them. So, I would imagine the cost is swearing allegiance/fealty/loyalty (looking for the right word) to the clan that has given you the rights to the land. If the lands should have spirits (tell me one without that the a clan would want to be building on) placating the spirits would be another cost (and a chance for some great adventure).

The ownership is likely Family or Clan based. The construction requires a blessing or at least a permission from the local spirits and success can bring additional benefits. 

I imagine this would be very different than building a house in a town, but in a wilderness doing it without a HeroQuest is likely to fail and bring on several enemies/curses upon oneself.

[Bill the barbarian]

57 minutes ago, Godlearner said:

I imagine this would be very different than building a house in a town, but in a wilderness doing it without a HeroQuest is likely to fail and bring on several enemies/curses upon oneself.

Can’t see why a city built house should not have the same caveat! 

 

58 minutes ago, Godlearner said:

The ownership is likely Family or Clan based.

I am not sure of a family ownership amongst Heortlings, this does not sound right. Yes to clan however...

[Godlearner]

Quote

Can’t see why a city built house should not have the same caveat! 

I am not a subject matter expert, but in my mind an increase in civilization reduces the number of local spirits. This is were housing starts to become a commodity and the the original question of "how much does it cost?" becomes more relavant.

Quote

I am not sure of a family ownership amongst Heortlings, this does not sound right. Yes to clan however...

I was trying to capture a larger cultural and geographical area 😉

[Bill the barbarian]

38 minutes ago, Godlearner said:

I am not a subject matter expert, but in my mind an increase in civilization reduces the number of local spirits. This is were housing starts to become a commodity and the the original question of "how much does it cost?" becomes more relavant.

On the Blue Marble, sure. I say city spirits are an overlooked aspect of the very magical Green Lozenge (cities can not even be built without rituals, I postulate). 

Agreed with the second part, with the above caveat.

ETA Some of those spirits would have to have the Issaries Rune, after all!

Edited July 7, 2021 by Bill the barbarian

[Joerg]

IMO those who raise a house would usually be a household, which is probably the best approximation for a "family" in Orlanthi society if you don't want to go all bloodline.

A clan (chief) does assign each household's holding when taking new land, but afterwards the household will have a claim to the place they occupied, formed by the magical connections with the minor entities of the place, and possibly some expression of ancestral guidance and presence, too.

Farm houses don't last forever, whether built of wood or of stone (or adobe/wattle and daub, or a combination thereof).

Masonry requires specialist knowledge, but that specialist knowledge is fairly widely spread in Sartar or Pavis, and probably in Esrolia, too. 

9 minutes ago, Godlearner said:

in my mind an increase in civilization reduces the number of local spirits.

Only in comparison to the number of humans inhabiting the place, I would expect.

Hearths are shrines of a sort (sites in RQ-speak), and shrines or activities performed at such places attract spirits connected to those activities.

Households attract a range of minor spirits, some annoying such as dust mice or pungent winds, others helpful, yet others harmful. Certain measures of bribes or propitiation are part of the normal routines, I suppose.

Cities or tribal/clan stockades are areas collectively prepared for human habitation (or some other species if applicable). There will be a wyter or city god involved in dedication rites for buildings.

In a tribal or clan stockade, the respective ring will be the owner of the building plots (and any garden plots adjacent to those). In a confederated city of Sartar, there will be several tribes, and guilds and temples acting as owners. If the place used to be a clan's stockade, that clan will have some land ownership inside the city, too.

Clearwine is a mix of a tribal and clan settlement, with a powerful (tribal) Earth temple in the mix.

In some sense, all the land is assigned by the Earth Temple, but the dispute over Arrowtop Mountain in the Lawstaff myth offers two more Orlanthi claims that stand as traditional laws, Possession (Jarani's claim) and Establishment (Harand's claim). (I'll leave it to the jurisdictionally inclined to discuss what exactly these terms mean, but basically a squatter has a valid legal position, and other claims can be as valid. It is possible that Harand's claim was something an Earth Temple could field.)

Possession of land is a legal concept, a precedent. Quite likely some sort of provable use of the place is involved.

Orlanthi lawspeaking has no place inside a clan, but a household usually has a marriage partner with ties to their birth clan, which might act as a legal proxy in a select group of possible procedures. (More typically, this applies to divorces, but abusing bridal gifts or dowries or whatever other arrangement the marriage had will bring in the in-laws. Probably where the term "in-law" originates.)

Clan politics have to take bloodlines and factions into account.

 

Rent for occupying a house or a plot of land usually only comes into play when the property is a way to support the owner or administrator of that property.

If you look at the tenant farmers of Apple Lane as detailed in the Colymar Adventure Book (GM Screen), the rent involves not only the cottage, but also an orchard, and it grants the tenants the use of a gardening plot and probably some part of a plowed field, some nearby pasture and possibly the care of a clan herder for some live-stock, and access to commons like nearby wooded areas. Tenancy probably mandates a measure of maintenance on the building(s), but in the end the owner (rent-taker) is responsible to provide the housing. A tenant replacing a rickety house with a new one built by himself (possibly calling in favors from neighbors) would expect this to reflect in the rent and services agreed with the rent-taker. Patching a hole in the roof would not.

 

[Squaredeal Sten]

This thread - "A House" 

ended up with a consensus cost of 200L for a house with a chimney.  But IMHO the average Satrtarite house doesn't yet have a chimney.  YGMV but for a new settlement I'd advocate saying chimneys are a luxury, so save the cost of a mason.   This is construction coast, does not include clearing land or sacrifices.  

 

 

 

[Shiningbrow]

16 hours ago, Adaras said:

I was wondering if you lovely sages could assist me in figuring out what it would cost for a player to build a house, temple and fort? 

Such information will cost you, and take time while our expert sages find the appropriate resources. Please see the pricing guide to your right.

 

What? You can't read it?? Well, for a couple of Lunars, I'll gladly read out loud those contents for you.

[Shiningbrow]

8 hours ago, Joerg said:

Only in comparison to the number of humans inhabiting the place, I would expect.

Hearths are shrines of a sort (sites in RQ-speak), and shrines or activities performed at such places attract spirits connected to those activities.

Households attract a range of minor spirits, some annoying such as dust mice or pungent winds, others helpful, yet others harmful. Certain measures of bribes or propitiation are part of the normal routines, I suppose.

Cities or tribal/clan stockades are areas collectively prepared for human habitation (or some other species if applicable). There will be a wyter or city god involved in dedication rites for buildings.

I suspect what @Godlearnerwas thinking is that as "civilisation" expands, the local nature spirits are forced out, and the new inhabitants bring in or start worshipping their city gods. 

[soltakss]

19 hours ago, Adaras said:

Hi everyone 😄

I was wondering if you lovely sages could assist me in figuring out what it would cost for a player to build a house, temple and fort? 

My group is going to migrate soon and they are going to built a new place for their clan, and I was thinking maybe there are some good rules for building and such 😄

The Book of Doom has some prices:

[French Desperate WindChild]

53 minutes ago, soltakss said:

The Book of Doom has some prices:

It is very interesting

what does it cover ?

workers ? material ? land ?

I mean if players want to reduce the cost (I'm not bargaining or discuss about bargaining) what can they do ?

In the other hand, what is expected from pc to pay this cost ? should they participate in any way or just bring the money ?

[soltakss]

16 minutes ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

what does it cover ?

workers ? material ? land ?

Workers and material. Normally, land is not bought in Glorantha but is granted, so people don't generally buy the land.

17 minutes ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

I mean if players want to reduce the cost (I'm not bargaining or discuss about bargaining) what can they do ?

As an architect friend of mine says "sure, I can cut the price by half, which half of the building don't you want?"

There are ways to reduce the cost:

• Bargain with the workforce to reduce labour costs
• Hire cheaper workers, but the quality might not be as good
• Bargain over the cost of the materials
• Find a better source of materials
• Use cheaper materials, but the quality might not be as good
• Do some of the work themselves, if they have the right skills (Craft sounds good)

A commoner's house is roughly a year's income, which feels about right.

20 minutes ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

In the other hand, what is expected from pc to pay this cost ?

Normally, PCs bring money and supervise the work, not continually but enough to get the work done properly.

21 minutes ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

should they participate in any way or just bring the money ?

Participating can be good, if they have the skills. Just helping out could bring the workforce onto their side and end up with a better building.

[French Desperate WindChild]

Quote

sorry you cannot add any more reaction today

😂

[Akhôrahil]

14 hours ago, Joerg said:

Farm houses don't last forever, whether built of wood or of stone (or adobe/wattle and daub, or a combination thereof).

For one thing, they grow increasingly infested with pests over time, until at one point the best you can do is burn the place down and build a new one. 

[French Desperate WindChild]

16 hours ago, Joerg said:

IMO those who raise a house would usually be a household, which is probably the best approximation for a "family" in Orlanthi society if you don't want to go all bloodline.

A clan (chief) does assign each household's holding when taking new land, but afterwards the household will have a claim to the place they occupied, formed by the magical connections with the minor entities of the place, and possibly some expression of ancestral guidance and presence, too.

Farm houses don't last forever, whether built of wood or of stone (or adobe/wattle and daub, or a combination thereof).

Masonry requires specialist knowledge, but that specialist knowledge is fairly widely spread in Sartar or Pavis, and probably in Esrolia, too. 

Only in comparison to the number of humans inhabiting the place, I would expect.

Hearths are shrines of a sort (sites in RQ-speak), and shrines or activities performed at such places attract spirits connected to those activities.

Households attract a range of minor spirits, some annoying such as dust mice or pungent winds, others helpful, yet others harmful. Certain measures of bribes or propitiation are part of the normal routines, I suppose.

Cities or tribal/clan stockades are areas collectively prepared for human habitation (or some other species if applicable). There will be a wyter or city god involved in dedication rites for buildings.

In a tribal or clan stockade, the respective ring will be the owner of the building plots (and any garden plots adjacent to those). In a confederated city of Sartar, there will be several tribes, and guilds and temples acting as owners. If the place used to be a clan's stockade, that clan will have some land ownership inside the city, too.

Clearwine is a mix of a tribal and clan settlement, with a powerful (tribal) Earth temple in the mix.

In some sense, all the land is assigned by the Earth Temple, but the dispute over Arrowtop Mountain in the Lawstaff myth offers two more Orlanthi claims that stand as traditional laws, Possession (Jarani's claim) and Establishment (Harand's claim). (I'll leave it to the jurisdictionally inclined to discuss what exactly these terms mean, but basically a squatter has a valid legal position, and other claims can be as valid. It is possible that Harand's claim was something an Earth Temple could field.)

Possession of land is a legal concept, a precedent. Quite likely some sort of provable use of the place is involved.

Orlanthi lawspeaking has no place inside a clan, but a household usually has a marriage partner with ties to their birth clan, which might act as a legal proxy in a select group of possible procedures. (More typically, this applies to divorces, but abusing bridal gifts or dowries or whatever other arrangement the marriage had will bring in the in-laws. Probably where the term "in-law" originates.)

Clan politics have to take bloodlines and factions into account.

 

Rent for occupying a house or a plot of land usually only comes into play when the property is a way to support the owner or administrator of that property.

If you look at the tenant farmers of Apple Lane as detailed in the Colymar Adventure Book (GM Screen), the rent involves not only the cottage, but also an orchard, and it grants the tenants the use of a gardening plot and probably some part of a plowed field, some nearby pasture and possibly the care of a clan herder for some live-stock, and access to commons like nearby wooded areas. Tenancy probably mandates a measure of maintenance on the building(s), but in the end the owner (rent-taker) is responsible to provide the housing. A tenant replacing a rickety house with a new one built by himself (possibly calling in favors from neighbors) would expect this to reflect in the rent and services agreed with the rent-taker. Patching a hole in the roof would not.

 

 

1 hour ago, Akhôrahil said:

For one thing, they grow increasingly infested with pests over time, until at one point the best you can do is burn the place down and build a new one. 

remember you have Yinkin, Ernalda, Barntar, and other gods and spirits who can fix a lot of issue. that may explain where go POW and MP sacrifice from NPC

[Akhôrahil]

14 minutes ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

remember you have Yinkin, Ernalda, Barntar, and other gods and spirits who can fix a lot of issue. that may explain where go POW and MP sacrifice from NPC

In my Glorantha, I tend to apply the reasoning that while there are many more tools available, there are also a lot more problems to handle, so that a lot of stuff just evens out. Glorantha still has infant mortality and people dying from diseases, despite magics that are considerably better than modern hospital care (at least as modeled in RQ). Various blessings and magics improve some things, but malign magics equally causes problems. Problems with infestation might even extend to minor spirits accumulating over time!

Edited July 8, 2021 by Akhôrahil

[French Desperate WindChild]

1 hour ago, Akhôrahil said:

In my Glorantha, I tend to apply the reasoning that while there are many more tools available, there are also a lot more problems to handle, so that a lot of stuff just evens out. Glorantha still has infant mortality and people dying from diseases, despite magics that are considerably better than modern hospital care (at least as modeled in RQ). Various blessings and magics improve some things, but malign magics equally causes problems. Problems with infestation might even extend to minor spirits accumulating over time!

I did not think about it but, you're right, more than external issue (like broos, etc..) angry ancestors (for any ridiculous reason), forgotten home spirits and things like that.

Thanks for the input !

[SJB]

Converting real world historical data to the ‘Lunar silver scale’ would suggest 1.8 cubic feet per person-day at a cost of 22L per cubic foot (including labour, materials, transport and expertise). Width in the volume calculation is taken to be the thickness of the outer wall. Multiply construction time and cost by 0.6 if building in wood rather than stone.

SJB

[Squaredeal Sten]

15 hours ago, SJB said:

Converting real world historical data to the ‘Lunar silver scale’ would suggest 1.8 cubic feet per person-day at a cost of 22L per cubic foot (including labour, materials, transport and expertise). Width in the volume calculation is taken to be the thickness of the outer wall. Multiply construction time and cost by 0.6 if building in wood rather than stone.

SJB

or to round it off, for generic construction,

working in wood  13 lunars per cubic foot. 

working in stone:  22 l per cubic foot

But in the case of a clan building its own new longhouse and felling local lumber, not using any manufactured components, and doing no masonry,   money is negligible but man-days are the critical issue, and that would be 3 cubic feet per man-day in wood, 1,6 in stone.

So to raise a log cabin 20'x12'x12' high with 6" thick walls, that's 64 feet of perimeter x 12' high x.5 = 384 cubic feet /3 = 128 man-days? 

No,  I think it should be less, at least until you attempt  higher quality construction.. 

Why?  I understand from a book about Lincoln's life that a frontiersman would fell trees inside of one year and then before winter invite maybe 12-20 neighbors to a one day house raising -  and still manage to feed himself and family. 

Of course that's a frontiersman with an iron axe.  How much to allow for bronze or stone tools?  What's the nature of the real world historical data?