Sorcerer occupation

[simonh]

I think familiars are entirely consistent with Malkioni theology. Clearly the creation of a familiar requires spiritual and magical exercises that are necessary in order to prove the magician’s dominance over the spiritual and material worlds. Any Malkioni magician who has not demonstrated their superiority in this way cannot be taken seriously.

 

Edited July 10, 2022 by simonh

[Squaredeal Sten]

I have never run a sorcerous character, and am not expert on that part of RQiG nor of RQ3.  But it occurs to me that the desire for a familiar is a desire to match rune level  characters who have an allied spirit.  

How about instead: When sorcery is written up completely, giving the advanced sorcerer a new and different capability  to aspire to?  Just as shamans have different capabilities from rune priests?

It is a different magical track, after all.

 

 

 

Edited July 11, 2022 by Squaredeal Sten
Spelling

[French Desperate WindChild]

1 hour ago, Darius West said:

Did they? .

Yes they did but is  elder secrets aligned with rqg ?

[PhilHibbs]

26 minutes ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

Yes they did but is  elder secrets aligned with rqg ?

No. Truestone is radically changed, but crystals and metals are very similar.

[PhilHibbs]

5 hours ago, Darius West said:

Did they?  I thought I read that pretty closely.  Then again it was about 2 years ago...

Elder Secrets p38:

Quote

HEALING FOCUSING

...Similarly, the
crystal doubles the intensity of a sorcerous Treat
Wounds spell and doubles the magic points used to
boost a divine Heal Wounds spell.

There's also Power Enhancing, one in ten of which will boost the Intensity of sorcery spells.

So whilst crystals might affect sorcery in RQG, we don't have any rules for how they work yet since Intensity isn't quite the same as it used to be. Spell Strength is very similar so you could just extrapolate that.

Edited July 10, 2022 by PhilHibbs

[Jeff]

Malkioni sorcerers do not generally use familiars (in fact, there is no Create Familiar spell in the RQG core rules). They bind spirits, dominate spirits, elementals, and animals, and generally do as they will (within whatever limits set by tradition and by their sect).

If we assume about 3% of the adult population in Malkioni lands belong to the zzaburi caste (which is probably high), that would mean that there are some 60,000 members of that caste in Seshnela, spread out through a total population of 2.88 million people. So there is a LOT of room for variation in what they do. Some might be attached the household of a talar ruler, others be responsible for the spiritual and magical care of a village, or work directly for the Rokari School. Still others might work for whoever pays them.

[PhilHibbs]

On 7/8/2022 at 6:41 AM, Darius West said:

Has any product reintroduced sorcery familiars?  I haven't bought the Red Book of magic yet so idk.  AFAIK presently we have no rules for familiars in RQG as a result.

No, and as Jeff just said, they aren't a thing in RQG. So any discussion of the concept, including my suggestion of the congregational wyter fulfilling the same role for Malkioni wizards, falls under "Our Glorantha Is Varying".

Edited July 10, 2022 by PhilHibbs

[PhilHibbs]

Can anyone remind me where the magic crystal rules are for RQG? I know they are in a preview PDF, which I have, but how can others get this? Is it available to download somewhere (or did the crystals rules get published somewhere that I forgot about?)

The file is available in a Dropbox linked from the Preview List email, details here. Not sure if we are allowed to share the dropbox link, I think we were asked not to: 

 

The file is called "RQG Preview - RQ Rune Metal and Magic Crystals - 3rd July.pdf" if anyone wants to search their emails for it.

[metcalph]

4 hours ago, Squaredeal Sten said:

How about instead: When sorcery is written up completely, giving the advanced sorcerer a new and different capability  to aspire to?  Just as shamans have different capabilities from rune priests?

 

From the hints about Caste Magic, they do.

[metcalph]

3 minutes ago, PhilHibbs said:

Can anyone remind me where the magic crystal rules are for RQG? I know they are in a preview PDF, which I have, but how can others get this? Is it available to download somewhere (or did the crystals rules get published somewhere that I forgot about?)

 

Weapons and Equipment p119+

[metcalph]

5 hours ago, simonh said:

I think familiars are entirely consistent with Malkioni theology. Clearly the creation of a familiar requires spiritual and magical exercises that are necessary in order to prove the magician’s dominance over the spiritual and material worlds. Any Malkioni magician who has not demonstrated their superiority in this way cannot be taken seriously.

 

Leaving aside the correctness of your thesis - there's a big leap from "consistent with" to All Malkioni magicians must do this to be "taken seriously".

[Baron Wulfraed]

14 minutes ago, PhilHibbs said:

Can anyone remind me where the magic crystal rules are for RQG? I know they are in a preview PDF, which I have, but how can others get this? Is it available to download somewhere (or did the crystals rules get published somewhere that I forgot about?)

Under "Free Stuff/Runequest Rune Fixes" on the Chaosium site...

https://www.chaosium.com/runequest-rune-fixes/

 

[simonh]

2 hours ago, metcalph said:

Leaving aside the correctness of your thesis - there's a big leap from "consistent with" to All Malkioni magicians must do this to be "taken seriously".

Sure, I'm just presenting a maximalist viewpoint to show that if we want familiars to play an important role in Malkioni magic, it's quite possible to come up with a justification.

Edited July 10, 2022 by simonh

[PhilHibbs]

It has just occurred to me that familiars may well be a God Learner experiment to replicate the benefits of the fetch or allied spirit.

[JRE]

I find this is moving from a game question to a world question. If we want people who are not shamans to play without a Runepool, they need to be fun and able to keep up. In the same way I am sure most Wind Lords do not have an ally spirit, I would expect most zzaburi, specially those with church duties, will never have a familiar, or even get close to Magus status. It may be linked to heroquests into past ages, it may be linked to the community or its absence. But unless the aim is to have no sorcerer players, except as a hobby to keep busy Lhankhor Mhy nerds, by creating spells and long term boosts, we need a framework for player character sorcerers that is workable and fun, even if it is not balanced. And that includes having progression targets.

I get the impression, with caste magic and caste abilities, that sorcery is treated, at this point, as either a hobby or a NPC mechanic, rather than a PC occupation, as 97% of the Westerners seem to be expected to use other magics. A problem to be kicked further along the road, which means it may never be released.

Which in a circular way brings me back to House Rules and individual sorcery systems, if we want to play now and not sometime in the future.

Right now I see too much of Pendragon campaign structure bleeding into Glorantha. Pendragon is great at providing interesting knight campaigns, but it is a bad framework to explore arthurian Britain. In the same way the current rules, with the emphasis in community and seasonal activities, are exceedingly focused in a timeline and geographical and cultural milieu. It gives depth, not breadth, while for me at least its breadth was what brought me into Glorantha. Maybe it is because our games almost never had someone become a rune level (90% time dedication? No way), and the longest running and most influential game were three outcasts, a shaman, a sorcerer and an Eurmali. 

Each group explores the world in its own way, so I am going right now with a divide of Zzabur sorcerers, oriented to personal power, and Malkion sorcerers, oriented to their people. Nothing to do with individual sect affiliation, but fundamentally how they approach magic use. Ones will cast huge spells rarely, the others many small spells. And my player will go the Zzabur route for sure.

Tapping would be almost useless (and forbidden) to good Malkioni, if you can get a few hundred MPs in the weekly worship ceremony, even if three quarters go up in the hierarchy.

There have been many good ideas, and I am still grasping with the implications of Phil Hibbs "spirit appendix" theory of otherworld presence, as a kind of pre-heroic character growth. But what I need, and I think other players, is not "this cannot be", and more "it could be this way", even if it will be changed five years in the future when we get an official publication. 

As for familiars as a God Learner creation, I would expect the concept was spread by them, as they had thousands of prototypical "selfish sorcerers", breaking the previously religious role of sorcerers, but I think the techniques are older, and that the real prototypes are Zzabur's books. And by imitation the other Brithini zzaburi and their grimoires. 

[radmonger]

4 hours ago, JRE said:

as 97% of the Westerners seem to be expected to use other magics

If you want something for that 97% that is immediately playable, and balanced with Rune Magic , simply say Caste Magic is, in rule terms, Rune and/or Spirit Magic. You get it by attending a temple, can cast it either at will or about once per season, and so on. You just need to write the 'cults' of Dronal, Horal and Talar.

That leaves actual sorcery playing roughly the role mathematics plays in real-world Western society. Fundamental to everything, but rarely an immediately-useable tool or weapon. In the model, one of the responsibilities of the zzaburi caste is to monitor and perhaps adjust what is locally avalable using caste magic to the needs of the region. They develop, research and perfect a spell, then roll it out to mass consumption. The hrestoli probably even innovate; everyone else is just trying to adapt what was once eternally true to the fallen state of the 3rd age Glorantha. .

 

Edited July 11, 2022 by radmonger

[Joerg]

4 hours ago, JRE said:

As for familiars as a God Learner creation, I would expect the concept was spread by them, as they had thousands of prototypical "selfish sorcerers", breaking the previously religious role of sorcerers, but I think the techniques are older, and that the real prototypes are Zzabur's books. And by imitation the other Brithini zzaburi and their grimoires.

Having identified as a God Learner through the name of the podcast, I feel the need to point out that "the God Learners did it" is similar to calling Welsh people Englishmen.

So, what kind of God Learner sorcerers are we talking about who may have used familiars?

Nralar's pets aiding him overcome the adverse effects of old age "through piety"?

Jrusteli parish wizards, engaging in philosophical debate with all five castes of their communities?

The early Jrusteli, who discovered how studying the Abiding Book could give them Zzabur-like powers to pour down skyfire onto Vralos, burning 90% of that forest to the ground?

The sorcerers of the Free Men of the Sea, who summoned and dominated a son of Tanian, making that entity to summon its father, again burning - this times the seas the Waertagi fleet and their Cetoi allies occupied, along with the occupants, though not by sorcerous magic but by divine manifestation?

Are we talking of Pilif the Magus and his order of the New Order, who attempted to gain rulership over the reclaimed land of Seshnela and the crusader men-of-all of the Return to Rightness campaign?

Are we talking about the Zistorites who constructed wind-driven prayer mills to power spells or worship feeding their Machine God?

Are we talking about the Slontan researchers who performed the Goddess Switch?

The Slontan twins who created the Cult of Caladra and Aurelion?

The Umathelan university alumni trained to invade the Otherworlds?

Are we talking about Yomili, the Pithdaran defender of Makanist orthodoxy, or Halwal, the heroic helper of the Irensavalists and neo-Arkati, who eliminated each other at the Red Ruins in a discharge of magic equalled only by the Nights of Horrors?

Or are we talking about the orthodox monks Jonat transported into Fronela days before the Luatha eliminated the rest of Seshnela?

From this list, I could see the Slontans and Umathelans having something resembling RQ3 familiars. The rest? Not really.

[metcalph]

5 hours ago, radmonger said:

If you want something for that 97% that is immediately playable, and balanced with Rune Magic , simply say Caste Magic is, in rule terms, Rune and/or Spirit Magic. You get it by attending a temple, can cast it either at will or about once per season, and so on. You just need to write the 'cults' of Dronal, Horal and Talar.

My own (idle) thinking is that they are a fusion of shamanic gifts and sorcery spells with Rightness acting as a Geas.  A common (to all castes) caste magic would be the ability to cast Mend Flesh only on oneself, using the largest caste lore skill as the chance of caste magic success.  They are castable so long as one has the necessary magic points.  They are not learnable but rather enchanted by a local wizard (in exchange for cash, service or a favour).

[JRE]

I think people are not using the imagination. What if the original God Learners, following the Brithini model, awakened their own copy of the Abiding Book as a familiar. As the years pass, and they study shaman fetches and ally spirits, first by spying the Arkati henotheists, and later the theists themselves. 

6 hours ago, Joerg said:

So, what kind of God Learner sorcerers are we talking about who may have used familiars?

Nralar's pets aiding him overcome the adverse effects of old age "through piety"?

Obviously some awakened animal, or several. Sorcery is piety. It proves you understand God's work.

6 hours ago, Joerg said:

Jrusteli parish wizards, engaging in philosophical debate with all five castes of their communities?

As mentioned, I think community focus is not easily compatible with the selfishness of the Magus path. 

6 hours ago, Joerg said:

The early Jrusteli, who discovered how studying the Abiding Book could give them Zzabur-like powers to pour down skyfire onto Vralos, burning 90% of that forest to the ground?

Books as familiars, of course. 

6 hours ago, Joerg said:

The sorcerers of the Free Men of the Sea, who summoned and dominated a son of Tanian, making that entity to summon its father, again burning - this times the seas the Waertagi fleet and their Cetoi allies occupied, along with the occupants, though not by sorcerous magic but by divine manifestation?

I would expect the Free Men to have both sorcerers, following the selfish path, and chaplains, following the community. A great sea sorcerer will awaken something he always has at hand, and yet different from all those book sorcerers. I would allow a familiar rudder wheel, if we allow them in Glorantha, to cast spells on the ship where it is mounted, but it probably would be better to awaken a bowsprit, or even the whole ship. That allows the sorcerer in the complex summoning of Tanian.

6 hours ago, Joerg said:

Are we talking of Pilif the Magus and his order of the New Order, who attempted to gain rulership over the reclaimed land of Seshnela and the crusader men-of-all of the Return to Rightness campaign?

I would expect most of the sorcerers will be of the awakened abiding book, as proof of their Rightness

6 hours ago, Joerg said:

Are we talking about the Zistorites who constructed wind-driven prayer mills to power spells or worship feeding their Machine God?

I think the Zistorites strayed into artificial henotheism, so they would get automaton ally spirits.

6 hours ago, Joerg said:

Are we talking about the Slontan researchers who performed the Goddess Switch?

I would expect the project leaders to be classical Jrusteli, while the actual heroquests would be by scholastic henotheists. 

6 hours ago, Joerg said:

The Slontan twins who created the Cult of Caladra and Aurelion?

Theism deviation.

6 hours ago, Joerg said:

The Umathelan university alumni trained to invade the Otherworlds?

Here I hesitate between the ship and the suits, but it would work as the fetch, as the door to the otherwold.

6 hours ago, Joerg said:

Are we talking about Yomili, the Pithdaran defender of Makanist orthodoxy, or Halwal, the heroic helper of the Irensavalists and neo-Arkati, who eliminated each other at the Red Ruins in a discharge of magic equalled only by the Nights of Horrors?

I would expect neither, actually, being community oriented and harnessing the power of the worshippers, and tying their fates with them.

6 hours ago, Joerg said:

Or are we talking about the orthodox monks Jonat transported into Fronela days before the Luatha eliminated the rest of Seshnela?

I doubt there were magi among them.

6 hours ago, Joerg said:

From this list, I could see the Slontans and Umathelans having something resembling RQ3 familiars. The rest? Not really.

As you can see I prefer to see it differently.

[Joerg]

A book or grimoire is hardly the type of familiar previously discussed (animal, manifest spirit, homunculus). I can live with Malkioni wizards having a personal wizard item holding their knowledge, whether wand or grimoire, when these aren't entities acting autonomically. A book as a familiar won't sneak into places, or similar.

[JRE]

The three examples of familiar I listed for orthodox malkioni were Book, staff/wand and engraved iron breastplate, and that mainly because almost all sorcerers in the guide to Glorantha sport one, and I think it is a cool alternative, a kind of Gloranthan version of Westeros Maester's collar. 

I still think animals are possible, as they have some big limitations as well (vulnerability, conspicuousness). I am still doubtful about the spirits that were the typical familiar stuff in RQ3, as if we take the familiar as an extension of the mind of the sorceress that puts her on the other side, it would be better if it did not have a mind of its own before awakening / joining. But I would allow golems and homunculi for obscure sects, usually those linked with alchemy.

And I am thinking how cool it would be for the Middle Sea Empire captains to have the whole ship as their familiar, able to sail beyond East and West, and down the Styx in a mission of pillage and discovery. And provoking the Luathans till they say enough is enough...

[metcalph]

38 minutes ago, JRE said:

The three examples of familiar I listed for orthodox malkioni were Book, staff/wand and engraved iron breastplate, and that mainly because almost all sorcerers in the guide to Glorantha sport one, and I think it is a cool alternative, a kind of Gloranthan version of Westeros Maester's collar. 

For me, calling books, wands and breastplates familiars is to warp the traditional understanding of the term.  There's very little sense in the material that we have of the paraphernalia actually being intelligent and moving of their own accord among other known familar attributes.  If it is to aid the Malkioni in having more powerful magic then inscriptions and the like IMO would be a better way to handle it.

For example, the runic breastplate (Guide to Glorantha p50 for those of you who are in the dark) rather than make it intelligent, I would just say the runes are individual enchantments that give the the sorceror a bonus with any spell that uses that rune.

That said, it's your campaign so feel free to do what you want.

  

 

 

[Jeff]

Sorcerers, unlike the masters of Rune cults, have no particular association with familiars. That's not to say they don't bind spirits into animals or other things - of course they do. But only if it is useful for them and they desire to do it.

This is something that a lot of people don't seem to get about Malkionism - it is humanist. It places mortal beings (let's be more accurate, it places humans) at the center of the universe. Gods, spirits, animals, nature, plants, and everything else - we mortals have a right to overcome them and either place them in our service or remove them. Now it is perfectly acceptable for that to be done through an bargain (every year we exchange gifts with the elves of Tarinwood), or for a god to agree to aid us because it is an ancestor of ours, but we mortals do not need to submit to the senile demands of the gods to gain magic - we can simply take it through out intellect and will.

Now who does that in Malkioni society? Not the talars - they are preoccupied keeping the other castes working together or dealing with outsiders. They are talkers, not doers. Not the holars - they just fight things the talars direct them to. Certainly not the dronars - they are just workers.  No, the caste tasked with mastering the universe is the zzaburi - us sorcerers. We spend our lives mastering the secrets of sorcery. We do not lead the other castes, we do not carry weapons or fight, and we do not work with our hands. We work magic. That is what we do and what we are.

 

[French Desperate WindChild]

12 hours ago, JRE said:

Sorcery is piety. It proves you understand God's work.

Mmm sorcery is manipulation of the nature / runes / powers

sorcery is not malkionism

sorcery is a logical use of the world to obtain expected effect by yourself

but a good use of sorcery, by the right people named by your prophet, is piety

(my opinion of course)

Edited July 12, 2022 by French Desperate WindChild

[metcalph]

1 minute ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

Mmm sorcery is manipulation of the nature / runes / powers

sorcery is not malkionism

sorcery is a logical use of the world to obtain expected effect by yourself

but a good use of sorcery m, by the right people named by your prophet, is piety

(my opinion of course)

I don't think that the Malkioni sorcerors are particularly pious.  They do sorcery for the Good and restrict themselves to sorcery because that makes them better at it (points to Lhankhor Mhy as an example of what happens if sorcery is mixed with rune magic).  Their attitude to the caste laws is not that it is morally wrong to break them but doing so weakens their magic.  Many will be fanatically obsessive about observing the laws but when observing others breaking those same laws will respond in a variety of ways (snide and cutting putdowns, remonstrations to do better, malicious gossiping etc).