Since Trickster seduced Barbeester Gor, Who Was the Child?

[Qizilbashwoman]

8 hours ago, soltakss said:

However, some people have interpreted the myth as it involving seduction.

actually what was said was that it involved rape

[PhilHibbs]

On 8/16/2021 at 8:24 AM, soltakss said:

However, some people have interpreted the myth as it involving seduction. Personally, I don't subscribe to that interpretation of the myth.

19 hours ago, Qizilbashwoman said:

actually what was said was that it involved rape

That was a different myth. I think (but can't be sure as it was not made clear) that the rape interpretation is based on the myth on Jane's site where Trickster becomes a flask and BG drinks him. In the one soltakss quoted, he just turns the blood to beer and she goes to sleep. No suggestion of "seduction" or anything worse.

If there's another Trickster/BG myth that is more explicit, then I am unaware of it.

Edited August 17, 2021 by PhilHibbs

[Qizilbashwoman]

5 hours ago, PhilHibbs said:

That was a different myth.

Darius West said "the hero cult involves rohypnol"

[Joerg]

Babeester getting pregnant without having had sex, or in case of Eurmal, fathering a child without having any of the fun, opens up a different can of worms. Immaculate conception and Eurmal in the same sentence? That must be a joke. Hence possible.

[PhilHibbs]

13 minutes ago, Qizilbashwoman said:

Darius West said "the hero cult involves rohypnol"

I don't know what hero cult he's referring to there. Soltakss was quoting a myth ending in "Eurmal saved some of the healers when he turned the blood to beer, which Babeester Gor drank to blissful oblivion", and that's the myth that he doesn't think is related to seduction, and I agree. I can only assume that Darius is talking about something else.

Edited August 17, 2021 by PhilHibbs

[Ali the Helering]

4 hours ago, Qizilbashwoman said:

Darius West said "the hero cult involves rohypnol"

Yeah.  Always check references before shooting from the hip.

[EricW]

12 hours ago, Qizilbashwoman said:

Darius West said "the hero cult involves rohypnol"

I’m glad you’re all blaming @Darius West for this c*ckup. Excuse me, I need to visit a shrine to replenish my magic 😉

Edited August 18, 2021 by EricW

[Darius West]

On 8/13/2021 at 1:20 PM, EricW said:

How many times have you rolled a few stats then discarded the character as unviable? 
Yet in Glorantha you have to assume there are lots of clumsy low powered weaklings wandering around, the kind of people who are described by scrunched up character sheets, who would never make it as an initiate.

As I recall you have scrunched up more unviable characters than most 😜

Agreed about the "discards" making their way in a hostile world though.  The poor suckers who become stick pickers, mediocre artisans, dung gatherers, spear carriers, water drawers, haulers on ropes, seasonal labor, thralls, beggars, thatchers, and bean counters.  The ranged weapon fodder of the Hero Wars when they get sent in as unwilling Fyrd levies, and the civilian casualties of the sacking of tulas.

[Darius West]

15 hours ago, PhilHibbs said:

I don't know what hero cult he's referring to there. Soltakss was quoting a myth ending in "Eurmal saved some of the healers when he turned the blood to beer, which Babeester Gor drank to blissful oblivion", and that's the myth that he doesn't think is related to seduction, and I agree. I can only assume that Darius is talking about something else.

Don't shoot the messenger. 

I was drawing attention to just how unsavory this myth really is.  This myth is effectively about the Gloranthan equivalent of date rape.  I was simply calling it out for what it is.  The fact is, generally such things have been censored out of the canon, yet here we have trickster molesting the otherwise extremely dangerous Barbeester Gor.  I know Chaosium is trying to keep the setting away from such content, so what is this myth still around for?  I also pointed out that it isn't in keeping with the lore in its present form, given that rape is always Chaos now.

[Qizilbashwoman]

43 minutes ago, Darius West said:

Don't shoot the messenger. 

I was drawing attention to just how unsavory this myth really is.  This myth is effectively about the Gloranthan equivalent of date rape.  I was simply calling it out for what it is.  The fact is, generally such things have been censored out of the canon, yet here we have trickster molesting the otherwise extremely dangerous Barbeester Gor.  I know Chaosium is trying to keep the setting away from such content, so what is this myth still around for?  I also pointed out that it isn't in keeping with the lore in its present form, given that rape is always Chaos now.

uh. this myth is based on a real-world myth, and does not involve rape. it involves sedating a berserker trying to murder the world. Babeester has gone full Khornate "BLOOD FOR THE BLOOD GOD, SKULLS FOR THE SKULL THRONE" and nobody is strong enough to stop her, so Eurmal tricks her into thinking beer is blood.

I'm going to do something to make clear my position:

The rabbinical tradition uses four methods of examining a text, which is nicknamed pardes after the first four letters of the words:

• Pshat (פְּשָׁט‎) – "surface". This is just what you see.
• Remez (רֶמֶז‎) are "hints", or symbolic meaning beyond just the literal sense
• Drash (דְּרַשׁ‎) is the comparative meaning, as given through similar occurrences (hence "midrash"). We look at other places in the text like this one
• Sod (סוֹד‎) "secret" is the esoteric meaning, given by inspiration or revelation. This is Gregspiration. This is Greg rune shit.

So the pshat here is clear. It does not say or suggest that's what's happening. At no point is "the berserker is being drugged to stop her from killing everything in the world" including Eurmal doing anything else.

Where do you see Eurmal raping her? Why do you read that here?

[Joerg]

2 hours ago, Darius West said:

Agreed about the "discards" making their way in a hostile world though.  The poor suckers who become stick pickers, mediocre artisans, dung gatherers, spear carriers, water drawers, haulers on ropes, seasonal labor, thralls, beggars, thatchers, and bean counters.  The ranged weapon fodder of the Hero Wars when they get sent in as unwilling Fyrd levies, and the civilian casualties of the sacking of tulas.

Other than Gimpy's and Urrgh the Ugly (the Colymar version of Forrest Gump), there aren't that many prominent disabled or disadvantaged characters in canon. Less prominent ones include the mentally challenged girl of Apple Lane, and the Dregs of Clearwine. (And then there are durulz and trollkin.)

 

If you take a look at the population figures, with up to 50% children, there is a lot of mortality when people enter into adulthood, or shortly after.

Initiation rites aren't necessarily a cakewalk. Candidates may not make it through the ordeals. Or through the subsequent young adulthood tests of life.

Herding may be a less lethal occupation than fishing, but out alone with your herd in the high pastures where sabretooth cats or Telmori prowl, tusk riders seek sacrifices for their demon, and mischievous spirits of nature may seduce and entrap the unwary and less witty, there will be some attrition.

Orlanthi cattle raiding is a milder form of the Koryos practices, those only apply to the actual rites of male adulthood initiation, and a good part of that is directed to the Other Side. But then, some might decide or be pushed into not attending male adulthood initiation, undergoing an ersatz Ernaldan adulthood initiation instead. Taken out of the normal marriage pool, even if they make it into a long adulthood life, they won't have many if any children.

Then there are those who never become a functional adult. These may be picked up by Eurmali, or the Seven Mothers' Teelo Norri charities - Teelo Norri is the receptable for such individuals in Lunarized lands, or might live with the temple orphans.

 

But then yes, there are many low status occupations that may be an outlet for the clumsy, unhealthy dimwits. Collecting forage beyond hay (e.g. green branches), pulling weeds, herding swine (which is really reporting their position and preventing them from entering the fields), gathering rocks from the fields, collecting chalk for the kilns to produce plaster or fertilizer, collecting fuel for household fires (stick-picking), cutting willows and similar branches for fabrication of baskets, brooms, wicker for wattle and daub walls, collecting manure for tanning or dyeing agents, carrying gravel to fill potholes in somewhat maintained secondary roads, show up for rites to fill the ranks of worshipers and get some of that sacrificial meat and other food, collect edible herbs, wild vegetables and fruit, and easily hunted, slightly icky small animals (frogs, slugs, snails, maggots, earthworms).

[Eff]

3 hours ago, Darius West said:

Don't shoot the messenger. 

I was drawing attention to just how unsavory this myth really is.  This myth is effectively about the Gloranthan equivalent of date rape.  I was simply calling it out for what it is.  The fact is, generally such things have been censored out of the canon, yet here we have trickster molesting the otherwise extremely dangerous Barbeester Gor.  I know Chaosium is trying to keep the setting away from such content, so what is this myth still around for?  I also pointed out that it isn't in keeping with the lore in its present form, given that rape is always Chaos now.

What myth are you describing, exactly? I haven't been able to find a myth which fits the outline you've described. I have found myths where Babeester Gor uses her own blood or that of others as soma, I have found myths where Trickster gets her drunk enough to pass out, and I found an unofficial myth which describes the drunkenness as an outcome of a sexual encounter where Babeester Gor devours Eurmal rather than a prelude to it. The vore fetish may be unsavory to some, but it's not equivalent to drugging someone for sex. And that latter version simply doesn't appear to exist in any official Chaosium product, unless it's an old Wyrm's Footnotes piece. Even then, I doubt it. 

And all of this is without reminding ourselves that gods are symbols and Eurmal is a symbol of disorderly drunkenness and overindulgence. 

[Sir_Godspeed]

If Darius worked on the same presumption (ie. taking other people's comments on the myth for granted) as I did, then I can see why he would come to his conclusion, because people kept writing about how Eurmal got Babeester drunk, and then "seduced" her. Those comments, while now in hindsight clearly not from the myth themselves, did make it seem rohypnol-y. Then @Eff cited the actual myths and showed that those comments were... completely spurious.

[EricW]

15 hours ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

If Darius worked on the same presumption (ie. taking other people's comments on the myth for granted) as I did, then I can see why he would come to his conclusion, because people kept writing about how Eurmal got Babeester drunk, and then "seduced" her. Those comments, while now in hindsight clearly not from the myth themselves, did make it seem rohypnol-y. Then @Eff cited the actual myths and showed that those comments were... completely spurious.

Of course, in a world as mythically malleable as Glorantha, I would argue that there must be a visitable version of events where trickster seduced Barb Gor, even if it isn't explicitly spelled out in canon. A lot of people here obviously believe in this version of events. Why would Glorantha be any different? 😉