Since Trickster seduced Barbeester Gor, Who Was the Child?

[Sir_Godspeed]

Considering that land ownership in Orlanthi culture, as per Jeff's comments, is ultimately tied into the Earth temple institutions (being the worldly manifestation of Earth sovereignty, one assumes), I think we're also overlooking the less "noble" and more prosaic role of Babeester Gorites as, well, muscle for the economic interests of said temples. Failure to pay tribute, failure to deal fairly with temple priestesses, failure to honor contracts, etc. are all effectively "violations" of the Earth. I mean, boiling feminine interests down to bodily autonomy is a bit reductive. Orlanthi women have extensive political and economic interests (and traditional entitlements), and Gorites are a part of that, I can only assume.

EDIT: Seems Qizilbashwoman kinda said the same thing.

Edited August 12, 2021 by Sir_Godspeed

[Qizilbashwoman]

Just now, Sir_Godspeed said:

Orlanthi women have extensive political and economic interests (and traditional entitlements), and Gorites are a part of that, I can only assume.

ACAB

yes, even Babeester Gor

[Sir_Godspeed]

Welp, now I'm imagining Gorites bashing down starving rioting peasants while the Asrelian priestess look down form atop their granary-temples. Oof.

[Eff]

2 minutes ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

Considering that land ownership in Orlanthi culture, as per Jeff's comments, is ultimately tied into the Earth temple institutions (being the worldly manifestation of Earth sovereignty, one assumes), I think we're also overlooking the less "noble" and more prosaic role of Babeester Gorites as, well, muscle for the economic interests of said temples. Failure to pay tribute, failure to deal fairly with temple priestesses, failure to honor contracts, etc. are all effectively "violations" of the Earth. I mean, boiling feminine interests down to bodily autonomy is a bit reductive. Orlanthi women have extensive political and economic interests (and traditional entitlements), and Gorites are a part of that, I can only assume.

EDIT: Seems Qizilbashwoman kinda said the same thing.

I'm not sure who's specifically reducing anybody's interests down to bodily autonomy. My suggestion was an effort to take an element of BG that has been part of the concept for decades, and which I think is unfortunately reductive (and dangerously Dianic in some of its fan elaborations) and explain that it's a subsidiary outgrowth of this central element, and strip it of some of the gendering that, above all else, fails to make sense with Glorantha as it is written today. And thinking through the implications of this, it also allows us to bring the "serial killer" elements back into the fold- there are transgressions against the Earth which are not always explicable unless you've been immersed deep within the dark of it, and which cannot always be articulated into the speech of the Earth that's exposed to Air and Sun and Moon.

I think that there's a deep mystery of Ernalda at play here, though. The Earth as a whole relies on a relationship of give and take. It is Ernalda who teaches people how to sacrifice, how to understand that there are gods and there are mortals and mortals give this to gods and gods give that to mortals. But the Earth is also hungry. doesn't look that much like a combination of and to me, it looks almost more like and have merged. But setting that aside, there's blood sacrifice, human sacrifice, in the bones of the Earth. Ana Gor. Hon-eel, dancing maize into being from blood, delivering deep revelations of Ernalda to the world.

Let us suppose, for a moment, that when Esrolians talk about "Nontraya" they don't just mean our pal Vivamort, but rather something related to Vivamort but with a distinctly Earthly tinge. , possibly. What does the story of Babeester Gor's birth, which is that of the death of Ernalda, mean in this context? Zorak Zoran (Hatred) attacks Ernalda, causing Babeester Gor to emerge, and Ernalda to die. With Ernalda dead, Nontraya emerges. Nontraya cannot take Ernalda, because she isn't actually dead, but merely sleeps. Nontraya is the Taker and the Waster. The world of the Greater Darkness is Wasteworld, which has been all used up.

Which is to say, Babeester Gor is perhaps that part of Ernalda, or that part of the Greater Ernalda Ceremonial Complex, which suppresses the Nontraya instinct of taking and never giving. (I think Maran Gor suppresses an instinct of total passive benevolence, giving to all without ever taking.) And so as a consequence, Babeester Gor initiates are always at the side of Ernalda wisewomen to protect them, and that includes protecting them against themselves.

The Undead rune sure looks like an axe, doesn't it? Especially the twin-bladed labrys-alike that Babeester Gor carries often.

[scott-martin]

1 hour ago, Eff said:

The Undead rune sure looks like an axe, doesn't it? Especially the twin-bladed labrys-alike that Babeester Gor carries often.

Within a heroquest environment there must be a theoretical Ernalda who dies and kind of relishes the relief, a kind of Bijiif or cold queen who rules in maggot country like Persephone in winter. Her economy is destructive, vampiric, toxic. In that season the Nontraya wins. She's a little bit TKT and a little bit Frozen . . . secrets of why Inora is essential to the compromise, all along in plain sight. White Princess and Snow Pixies.

Of course this particular anima menace is not in vogue these days. The earth can act up all it wants, we love it, but wire mother is different. Deezola may have been the last person to struggle with this complex and what she couldn't digest stayed behind as the Spindle Hag. I don't think Great Hon-Eel even thought twice. Not her style. Where are the gorgons?

[Eff]

48 minutes ago, scott-martin said:

Where are the gorgons?

My instinct says that Euryale and Stheno can be found in places where people are forced to confront the reality of Wire Mother on a regular basis. Gorgorma is big in Pent, or so the Pelorians believe. Right by where Slontos rolled over in her sleep to remind the Jrusteli and their comprador duchies, there's a cult center for Babeester Gor. And of course, Aldrya can serve as, if not Wire Mother, then at least Branch Mother, or Thorn Mother, if you're not part of her green world. (Which tells me that "tame" agricultural land is full of its own gorgons, that look like big Soft Mommy Venuses of Willendorf to we who see with the farmer's eyes...)

[Sir_Godspeed]

1 hour ago, scott-martin said:

Where are the gorgons?

Dark Earth (Gor), surely?
 

Maran Gor surely seems like the kind of incarnation of Earth who was around to knock in heads while Ernalda was asleep. She's not exactly a Bijiif character, but close enough. And of course Babeester's defining trait is that she was literally born from the dormant body of Ernalda to stand watch over her.

Gorgorma is an interesting perpendicular of Babeester, Maran and arguably TKT?

[EricW]

3 hours ago, Qizilbashwoman said:

incorrect!

Earth needs defenders the same as every single other element does. It has its own array of abilities, offensive and defensive. "Rape" isn't a special role we need to give to Earth. "Defending against the pollution of Earth" is, and us reading that as "rape" is my objection. Yes, one way that happens is broo. But of all the millions of dangers that Babeestor Gor protects against, broo is like... what percentage? There's oathbreakers and raiders, krjalki of all kind, and they are the last defense of the sacred places and the assassins send to avenge the worst threats.

Orlanthi society is not the 1950s. You don't fuck with Orlanthi women. They have de jure and de facto power in Orlanthi territories equal to that of men even without counting in the backing of the Earth cults (or Goose Girl land, where men are second-tier). This is a wildly foreign culture and we consistently think of it in terms of our own, which is a mistake of framing.

And even where Orlanthi have assimilated with outside cultures, you'll find these new hierarchies still end up having interesting power balance. The King of Sartar gets their title by marrying the Feathered Horse Queen, a Solar dynastic role with a startling female lead. Despite the masculine title, it seems like the Vingan Kallyr Starbrow, may her name be remembered, was aspiring to the title when she perished.

edit: I don't know who the child is

Obviously YGGMV, but I guess it all hinges on how many Gloranthans are like PCs, bristling with magic and martial skills, vs how many are just civilian bystanders.

How many times have you rolled a few stats then discarded the character as unviable? 
 

Yet in Glorantha you have to assume there are lots of clumsy low powered weaklings wandering around, the kind of people who are described by scrunched up character sheets, who would never make it as an initiate.

In well ordered societies, and I include Orlanthi societies, such people receive a measure of protection. But when order breaks down, like during a foreign occupation, not so much.

[g33k]

4 hours ago, EricW said:

Remember a lot of people are lay members of whatever cult is in charge, so they aren’t under major cult strictures to behave. There would be no need for Barb Gor if women were always well treated.
 

Someone who makes a habit of “chaotic” acts like rape or kin murder still only has a small chance of being infected with chaos. A much bigger chance of being hunted and killed by vengeful clan members, or a scary red head with a big axe.

Everybody meets B.Gor cultists on-duty -- remember, their other (I would argue, primary) role is  Defender of the Earth,  and they're generally at the front door guarding *EVERY* Earth Temple.

IMG, at least, that is WAY more common than hunting down rapists and kinslayers.

[Nick Brooke]

49 minutes ago, g33k said:

Everybody meets B.Gor cultists on-duty -- remember, their other (I would argue, primary) role is  Defender of the Earth,  and they're generally at the front door guarding *EVERY* Earth Temple.

IMG, at least, that is WAY more common than hunting down rapists and kinslayers.

Heh. Earth Temple greeters.

[Nick Brooke]

2 hours ago, Eff said:

And of course, Aldrya can serve as, if not Wire Mother, then at least Branch Mother, or Thorn Mother, if you're not part of her green world.

@Stew Stansfield’s “strict disciplines of an aldryami Birch Mistress” spring effortlessly to mind…

Source: Ten Woonar! Quacky-quacky! Pimps, Pushers, Prostitutes and Preverts in the Military Occupation of Sartar, from the Hearts in Glorantha zine - one of the most effervescently creative Gloranthan articles ever written, and I don’t say that lightly.

[Rob Darvall]

14 hours ago, Eff said:

Which is to say, Babeester Gor is perhaps that part of Ernalda, or that part of the Greater Ernalda Ceremonial Complex, which suppresses the Nontraya instinct of taking and never giving. (I think Maran Gor suppresses an instinct of total passive benevolence, giving to all without ever taking.)

Thank you for this insight. My (much extended) Gifts of Prax interlude has gain another episode.

[Darius West]

This seems like a double standard.  The Unholy Trio get rapey and suddenly all rape is chaos.  Trickster date rapes Barbeester Gor, and everyone is okay with it.  The notion that Barbeester Gor was consenting is absurd.  Clearly the hero cult involves rohypnol, and the ability to replace severed body parts, and given that the entire incident follows BBG's massacre of healers, the idea that the hero cult would involve soporifics and replacement of lost parts seems all the more likely, given the blood drinking and the inherent life runes involved in that.

[soltakss]

2 hours ago, Darius West said:

This seems like a double standard.  The Unholy Trio get rapey and suddenly all rape is chaos.  Trickster date rapes Barbeester Gor, and everyone is okay with it.  The notion that Barbeester Gor was consenting is absurd.  Clearly the hero cult involves rohypnol, and the ability to replace severed body parts, and given that the entire incident follows BBG's massacre of healers, the idea that the hero cult would involve soporifics and replacement of lost parts seems all the more likely, given the blood drinking and the inherent life runes involved in that.

I agree.

Mythology can be dark as well as light.

A lot of real-world mythology is far worse than that, for example.

Sure, it is a game and we can control what kind of myths are written, but having just nice and pretty myths with rainbows, unicorns and green pastures misses the whole point of how Glorantha was torn to pieces. 

Many Gloranthan deities were not nice, as we understand the term.

[coffeemancer]

Come to think of it, do we have any detailed, "canon" source as to the BG and Eurmal connection?

I can only recall second hand sources.

[Qizilbashwoman]

8 hours ago, Darius West said:

The Unholy Trio get rapey and suddenly all rape is chaos.

Okay but in Orlanthi society that's how it works, like, Chaos came into society because of Ragnaglar's break of society's rules. There's also Ogres, but they're not the story of How Orlanthis Meet Chaos. That's later.

Sexual violence seems to be something that's particularly evil. There's an entire Chaos pair - Thed and Ragnaglar - devoted to this. There's an entire plague of Chaos beasts, the broo, who personify it.

6 hours ago, soltakss said:

Sure, it is a game and we can control what kind of myths are written, but having just nice and pretty myths with rainbows, unicorns and green pastures misses the whole point of how Glorantha was torn to pieces. 

I do not feel good about this reaction! I'm really angry about this. How dare you? Nobody said anything about this. What, it's not good violence unless there's women raped? This statement is so incredibly belittling, I expect so much better than this misogynist shit from you. I tried to read this in its best light and all I got was: nothing good.

[EricW]

On 8/13/2021 at 11:22 AM, scott-martin said:

Within a heroquest environment there must be a theoretical Ernalda who dies and kind of relishes the relief, a kind of Bijiif or cold queen who rules in maggot country like Persephone in winter. Her economy is destructive, vampiric, toxic. In that season the Nontraya wins. She's a little bit TKT and a little bit Frozen . . . secrets of why Inora is essential to the compromise, all along in plain sight. White Princess and Snow Pixies.

Of course this particular anima menace is not in vogue these days. The earth can act up all it wants, we love it, but wire mother is different. Deezola may have been the last person to struggle with this complex and what she couldn't digest stayed behind as the Spindle Hag. I don't think Great Hon-Eel even thought twice. Not her style. Where are the gorgons?

The closest to wire mother would be Barb Gor surely? The death goddess who caught the axe Zorak Zoran plunged into her mother’s womb?

Bijiif existed because the emperor was dead, and having a big sulk. The Earth never quite died, Barb Gor saved her

EDIT - of course there might be a variation in which the Earth DID die… 

Edited August 14, 2021 by EricW

[Qizilbashwoman]

1 hour ago, EricW said:

The closest to wire mother would be Barb Gor surely? The death goddess who caught the axe Zorak Zoran plunged into her mother’s womb?

In Orlanthland, she's close. Gorgorma is better, but she's a monster Earth goddess from the Solar territories only. The Orlanthi know her as Ty Kora Tek, and not as the great terror shambling forth into the halls of the Sun King Yelm to cause him to book it and hide elsewhere (is this why there are eclipses?).

In short, I vote Ty Kora Tek, who the Orlanthis seem to not pay attention to but certainly there's a low-key secret cult that knows she's the monster who stopped Maran Gor from shaking and killed Ernalda and made her sleep by Nontraya.

Edited August 14, 2021 by Qizilbashwoman

[Eff]

9 minutes ago, Qizilbashwoman said:

In Orlanthland, she's close. Gorgorma is better, but she's a monster Earth goddess from the Solar territories only. The Orlanthi know her as Ty Kora Tek, and not as the great terror shambling forth into the halls of the Sun King Yelm to cause him to book it and hide elsewhere (is this why there are eclipses?).

In short, I vote Ty Kora Tek, who the Orlanthis seem to not pay attention to but certainly there's a low-key secret cult that knows she's the monster who stopped Maran Gor from shaking and killed Ernalda and made her sleep by Nontraya.

Between Maran, Babeester, Gorgorma, and Ty Kora Tek, we have four sides filled out. (Or perhaps the four submerged vertices of the Earth Cube.) Of course, there is that pesky Ana Gor, but perhaps this is (Jag)Ana(tha) Gor, who invented random murder to keep the old gods fed with blood. And she in turn may be an ancestral form of the Dark Earth, all those thoughts of spilling and drinking and devouring before the waveform collapse that produces the current quartet of shadows, from youth to old age. 

Or Ana Gor could be a remnant of Kargan(a) Tor, which would fit with her description as a primordial death-entity and with her incarnation being Sorana Tor. 

[PhilHibbs]

11 hours ago, soltakss said:

Sure, it is a game and we can control what kind of myths are written, but having just nice and pretty myths with rainbows, unicorns and green pastures misses the whole point of how Glorantha was torn to pieces. 

4 hours ago, Qizilbashwoman said:

I do not feel good about this reaction! I'm really angry about this. How dare you? Nobody said anything about this.

I don't see what was bad about what Soltakss wrote.

4 hours ago, Qizilbashwoman said:

  What, it's not good violence unless there's women raped?

Nobody said anything about this. Nobody said that a date rape story is "good violence".

Edited August 14, 2021 by PhilHibbs

[Eff]

6 minutes ago, PhilHibbs said:

I don't see what was bad about what Soltakss wrote.

Nobody said anything about this. Nobody said that a date rape story is "good violence".

I would say that the issue here is categorizing the matter as a split between "rainbows, unicorns, and green pastures" and... uh, apparently, taking the borrowed Sekhmet story where Trickster gets Babeester Gor to stop murdering people through the expedient of getting her blackout drunk as implying rape occurred and that this should be understood as being seen positively by who know the myth. There are a lot of problems with that second proposition, but I think that the offense here is happening in this dichotomy. I mean, I would say that on a basic factual level there are a whole lot of things in Glorantha which are not "rainbows, unicorns, and green pastures" but which are not this specific scenario, and which are not... hmmm, I think it's fair to call it "moral ambiguity around rape"? And indeed, I would say that many of these things are pretty horrific and they go without many, if any, objections. The Crimson Bat, human sacrifice to grow maize, the Cannibal Cult, etc. So in that sense, a vague statement that implies that moral ambiguity around rape is some kind of essential point to allow Glorantha to have dark myths is certainly potentially insulting. Now, I say "implies" and "vague statement" because it's of course entirely likely that by "rainbows, unicorns, and green pastures" Mr. Phipp wasn't referring to anyone in this conversation and so there was no insult intended.

Now, I think there is a point to be made about what the texts of Glorantha say about sexual assault and the people who perform it, and whether the idea that Trickster engaging in a heroic action (saving healers) is textually harmonious or dissonant with these things. And there is another point to be made about making the assumption that Eurmal seducing Babeester necessary involved him sexually assaulting her while she was blacked out. There's an additional point to be made about how metaphorical sexualized violence has been used in Glorantha texts. There are in fact a whole lot of points that could be made about the specific line of discussion that preceded the post in question. I'm not sure that I really want to make them right here and right now, of course, because I don't really have a particular interest in discussing that subject in depth when I could be spending time contemplating the Dark Earth and how the Dark Earth goddesses also present non-normative bodies in at least three cases.

And of course, one of those cases is Gorgorma's genitalia. But we are talking about Babeester here, not her auntie with the extra set of teeth, so I would like to propose that given that we have Ty Kora Tek for gaunt bodies, Maran for fat bodies, and Gorgorma for bodies that are non-normative in less visible fashions, that Babeester is associated with extremely muscular bodies. And if we want to imagine a child of Trickster and Babeester Gor, then perhaps that child is Cruxfik, demigod of overpriced workout equipment and programs.

[Ironwall]

3 hours ago, Eff said:

Cruxfik, demigod of overpriced workout equipment and programs.

I imagine a buff frat boy

[Qizilbashwoman]

4 hours ago, Eff said:

Between Maran, Babeester, Gorgorma, and Ty Kora Tek, we have four sides filled out.

Gorgorma is Ty Kora Tek, unless I'm wildly misunderstanding something

 

[Qizilbashwoman]

3 hours ago, PhilHibbs said:

I don't see what was bad about what Soltakss wrote.

What do you think it meant if not "by negating rape, you're just making the world of Glorantha sparkling idealistic rainbows and ponies"

(which of course is not what is even happening, of course; what is happening is that we're discussing the limitation of defining Babeester Gor as "anti-rape crusader" as outdated given her actual role and the actual power of women in Orlanthi society)

this is not the first time i've encountered this sentiment by a long shot, but somehow it's always a slap in the face

[Eff]

1 hour ago, Qizilbashwoman said:

Gorgorma is Ty Kora Tek, unless I'm wildly misunderstanding something

 

She appears as a separate entity in the Cults book based on the previews I've seen, but she's also... kind of filling the roles of the three Orlanthi goddesses, in that way. Keeper of Hell, and old (described as a hag), and yet also mature (Dendara's sister and symbolic opposite) and a goddess of the Earth's fury, and also a personal avenger who motivates people to direct action. And of course Gor Gor Ma to Ma Ran Gor is not a huge leap.