Magic across editions: some questions about learning limits and casting rolls

[Bren]

11 minutes ago, buzz said:

Is this maybe an issue of something being possible on paper but improbable in actual play?

In the current campaign, as far as the player characters go it's probably going to remain a theoretical rather than a practical concern. Personally I don't like treating the rules as only applying to the PCs, so I think about and am concerned with the effects on NPCs.

In past campaigns it would have been a very practical concern. There were characters who had more Rune Points than their CHA (or APP in RQ3 😉). One heavily played character, for example, had 28 Rune Points. A decades worth of weekly play sessions of 6-12 hours duration makes for a lot of play time and POW gain rolls occurred after each adventure, not limited to once per season.

[Alex]

1 hour ago, Bren said:

I like my interpretation* better.

1 hour ago, Bren said:

* My interpretation (or my house rule if you prefer) [...]

Yes, I prefer greatly "house rule". 🙂  It's a pet peeve of mine when authors and publishers do the "not the droids you're looking for" thing by "clarifying" new rules out of whole cloth, or worse do the "obviously" thing from the old maths lecturer joke.  Better not to do likewise!

1 hour ago, Bren said:

From a practical standpoint, for PCs it will be probably be some time before the issue arises, but from system design and world building standpoints I don't see a good reason to penalize characters who are initiates (or higher) of only one religion while highly rewarding those who join multiple cults. Joining multiple cults already provides a reward by increasing the number of special Rune Spells that a character can select. Doubling the total Rune Points that can be accumulated seems over-the-top.

It's a doubling of the total, but of course their second "pool" will be less effective overall if they're Runies in the first cult, and only initiates in the second.  Great for building ablative overpowered NPCs, of course.  "Yeah, that guy was an Initiate in nine different Chaos cults, .  Totally built by the book!"  "Whaaaaaaaa..."

1 hour ago, Bren said:

One world building consequence of restricting Rune Points to CHA per cult is that the most magically powerful theists are not necessarily priests and rune lord. Instead the most powerful will be those who join multiple cults so that they gain multiple Rune Point pools. That's a change from earlier versions of Runequest and its not a change for which I've seen a good explanation or rationale.

I think it'd be a weird corner case to be an Initiate/Initiate -- or Initiate/Initiate/Initiate, or Initiate/Initiate/Initiate/Initiate... -- instead of a Rune-level.  More likely they're both, though granted the current core book doesn't explicitly address this case, it seems we have sample characters that do this, and it seems highly likely this is possible on some sort of basis.

1 hour ago, Bren said:

This runs counter to some of the oldest published Gloranthan examples of powerful characters. While Argrath seems like he is a good example of gaining power by joining multiple cults, Harrek seems to have adopted the opposite strategy. And Harrek is the Superhero counter in the White Bear, Red Moon / Dragonpass board game while Argrath is "only" a Hero.

I think it's a pretty safe bet that Argrath isn't "only" a multiple initiate, and Harrek isn't "only" a Rune Lord.  To put it mildly!  We're a looooong way from a RQ writeup that covers (4!)/10 and (20!!)/ characters, even give or take some "and their companions!" wiggle-room.  If anything if we were closer in the HW days, but that's not saying very much. 🙂

[Rodney Dangerduck]

2 hours ago, Bren said:

from system design and world building standpoints I don't see a good reason to penalize characters who are initiates (or higher) of only one religion while highly rewarding those who join multiple cults

Bravo, very well said.  IMO, a dubious design decision.

Also, it's very unclear whether certain cults, like Odalya or Yinkin, are "separate" cults or "subcults" of Orlanth.  Has major effects, both good and bad, either way.

[Alex]

2 hours ago, buzz said:

Is this maybe an issue of something being possible on paper but improbable in actual play? Not only in terms of the in-game requirements for joining multiple cults (and maintaining those relationships), but also the amount of session time needed to reach such a state? In which case that might balance it out, i.e., it's hard to pull off.

I think it's very much in the realm of your game-group will very much vary!  If you munch through a season's adventure in a single session, have a lavish supply of Lun-- ahem, guilders for POW training, and it's your regular game for a sustained period of time then -- give or take trollkin critical hits and the like -- then this will happen, and won;t necessarily take an infeasible amount of either your character's or your own life to do it.  OTOH, a more intermittent, digressive, or TPK-rich game...

 

2 hours ago, Bren said:

In the current campaign, as far as the player characters go it's probably going to remain a theoretical rather than a practical concern. Personally I don't like treating the rules as only applying to the PCs, so I think about and am concerned with the effects on NPCs.

I'm much less hung up on that, and I'm happy to say the rules are a player-facing approximation to the SimLozenge.  Play more than one ruleset in a Gloranthan setting and see if you don't experience at some sort of Arkati or Crowleyesque moment of enlightenment on those lines! 🙂  Though if I actually statted up an NPC that broke the rule, I'd want to have at least an outline rationale as to how and why that worked, and how in principle PCs could do the same thing.

2 hours ago, Bren said:

In past campaigns it would have been a very practical concern. There were characters who had more Rune Points than their CHA (or APP in RQ3 😉). One heavily played character, for example, had 28 Rune Points. A decades worth of weekly play sessions of 6-12 hours duration makes for a lot of play time and POW gain rolls occurred after each adventure, not limited to once per season.

The season "limit" will generally make reaching that point quicker for the players, albeit much slower for the characters.  ("Some of whom are very old...")  Of course, it's also pretty soft as limits go, especially given that there are explicit rules covering the case where you just ignore it.

[Alex]

2 hours ago, Rodney Dangerduck said:

Also, it's very unclear whether certain cults, like Odalya or Yinkin, are "separate" cults or "subcults" of Orlanth.  Has major effects, both good and bad, either way.

Those two are definitely "separate".  There, solved that for those. 🙂

But you're exactly right, wherever you put the line, it's inevitably going to be a little blurry.  I personally think the Official line that Thunderous and Adventurous is the same for these purposes seems a little off, and I don't think I'd play it like that.  Or for those that would, what about the Thunder Brothers, who explicitly flip in different mythic tellings between being attributes of Orlanth, and his offspring?  Which may or may not be reflected directly in varying cult structures, but you wouldn't want to rule that out entirely.  Or Mastakos, who is very much like an Orlanth subcult in a lot of places and for a lot of purposes, but gets counted separately for tax purposes because he gets his own CoG writeup?

I think for me the rule of thumb would be, are the special rune magics of the two "substantially" different.  Y(Elmal)io need not apply.  Different names, yes, different cults, most definitely, with different likes, dislikes, and associations, and don't even like each other...  But much the same magic (I presume), and the same for common initiation, heroquesting proof and identification purposes.  Works for me as Gloranthacentric Consciousness; works for me for game-mechanical purposes, as it stops too much "double-dipping" on the same magic.  In fact I might go further and require a particular rune magic to be associated with only one cult, and hence only one RPP, where there's overlap.  Or that's my hot take, at least.

[g33k]

7 hours ago, Bren said:

* My interpretation (or my house rule if you prefer) is to restrict the number of cult Rune Spells one can learn based on CHA rather than restrict the number of Rune Points by cult.

n.b.
As characters approach Rune status, they generally have very-high CHA's...
In how many cases is the limit of  "possessing no more Rune Spells than points of CHA"  going to actually be a limit at all?

Also -- if you're worried about limiting available Rune Pool points -- recall the high-level's will have Crystals & such, and may well be able to cast more Rune Points than they actually have in-pool ...
 

[Shiningbrow]

In a way, it's a moot point.

By the time the characters get to the level of it being relevant, they'll be able to effectively Heroquest and change all of those mere mortal rules anyway. Especially if Hero Souls become an official thing.

As for "punishing" those of a single cult - tough! That's the whole point of being in a cult in the first place - you don't get everything you want, in order to get a power jump. It's no more "punishment" than having a geas, or taboo, or being a CA healer with no combat abilities... 

[David Scott]

14 hours ago, buzz said:

Not only in terms of the in-game requirements for joining multiple cults (and maintaining those relationships), but also the amount of session time needed to reach such a state?

Don't forget that adventurers can join spirit cults too, they are a much easier route.

[Alex]

7 hours ago, Shiningbrow said:

By the time the characters get to the level of it being relevant, they'll be able to effectively Heroquest and change all of those mere mortal rules anyway. Especially if Hero Souls become an official thing.

Yes, I think that's pretty much the "in-world" situation normal.  If you've hit your CHA limit mostly you're a Senior Priest and coasting along quite nicely at that level, thanks very much, no doubt in many cases dipping into it for a one-use spell, where applicable and available.  The minority are waiting for the Heroes book to come out, to provide a way to super-increase CHA, to have consciousness-expansion possibilities like the above, additional antics about the "multiple cults" possibilities, or maybe just telling you to go get Illuminated.  Any year now!

[Lordabdul]

My 2 cents:

On 11/7/2021 at 9:52 AM, buzz said:

Personally, I feel like spells just working and then the player dealing with Magic/Rune Point costs and Resistance rolls in enough; I don't see what's added by having them roll just to cast the spell (particularly the "double jeopardy" when they have to roll to cast and then roll again for Resistance).

FWIW I don't make players roll when there's no time pressure. For instance, if they're casting magic before a big negotiation meeting, or buffing up their weapons and armour before a combat encounter, it "just works". I don't need to track when exactly these spells started taking effect at the Strike Rank level. This is a majority of magic casting I've seen in my campaigns and one-shots so far.

I do make them roll if they are casting in the middle of an action scene. It's kind of important to know if that Protection spell is going up before or after the enemy has fired an arrow at them or whatever.

So effectively what's "added" by having them roll to cast the spell is more excitement and suspense. The same way some people might ask what's "added" from the crunch of dealing with hit locations. Well... not much if you don't care about hit locations. Or more excitement and flying limbs if you like that.

Of note, rolling to cast a spell also adds a reason to prepare mentally before going into a big action scene. It's a big narrative trope in epic/ancient stories that heroes would pray or meditate before going into battle. It might depend on your reading of the Meditate skill rules, but the way I interpret it, if you do it it can provide a bonus to some of your magic rolls, which can often give you the max 95% of success. So the rules also provide mechanical incentive to behave like the heroes of ancient stories that RuneQuest and Glorantha try to emulate. And that's what good mechanics do.

 

On 11/7/2021 at 9:52 AM, buzz said:

I also find the change from INT to CHA for Spirit Magic limits weird — it weights CHA more heavily than earlier editions.

I haven't played earlier editions but my understanding is that CHA was mostly a dump stat. Not only does this make CHA quite important, it also sort of makes sense when you consider that Spirit Magic is about being buddy-buddy with little spirit helpers. Using POW for that would be more about forcing them to help you I guess? I suppose we could argue either way but in my head it sort of works.

And also, again, the ancient epic stories have charismatic Kings and war heroes, so it makes sense to make CHA more important.

 

On 11/8/2021 at 3:06 PM, buzz said:

Doesn't that mean there is functionally a limit to the number of Rune spells they can know? They can't get more than CHA in Rune Points, and hey gains access to spells the same time they gain Rune Points, right?

Just as others have mentioned, I also play it where you can always sacrifice POW and get more Rune Magic (not like I have run into it yet... my players' characters aren't that powerful yet!).  First, it's not like gods are going to say "nope, I'm good, no more POW, thank you".  Second, sacrificing POW is about reinforcing the connection to your god. And casting Rune Magic is about channelling your god's stories through you. The stronger your connection (i.e. the more POW sacrificed), the more options you have to channel your god.

In addition to joining other cults to get more Rune Points, you can also sacrifice POW into enchantments, which you get access to when you become Rune Priest or Rune Lord. These enchantments can hold both Spirit and Rune Spells, and can therefore provide a few more points past the CHA limit. But I think reaching that CHA limit takes a long time anyway unless you're very nice to your players, or run short adventures.

 

[Alex]

On 11/9/2021 at 9:03 AM, Kloster said:

Agreed on most. I spoke specifically of the Aeolians just because the rules to create an Aeolian sorcerer are in the core rulebook.

I randomed across this disclaimer in the Sorcery Q&A:

Warning

Please be aware that, Sorcery is presented to allow Lhankor Mhy adventurers to be created. Future supplements will detail sorcerers from other cultures and provide more details of the sorcery system. Some elements of the system will likely change to portray other cultures.

So depending on just how canon-cautious you're feeling, that could put Aeolians either in the "similar henotheist heretics" category, and therefore essentially (as it were) covered; or as subject to revision as and when we get the definitive Malkioni take.

[PhilHibbs]

On 11/17/2021 at 3:30 AM, g33k said:

Also -- if you're worried about limiting available Rune Pool points -- recall the high-level's will have Crystals & such, and may well be able to cast more Rune Points than they actually have in-pool ...

If you have spare POW and are full on RP, make a matrix. Has the added advantage that you can loan it without the complication of an Issaries intermediary.

[Kloster]

2 hours ago, Alex said:

I randomed across this disclaimer in the Sorcery Q&A:

Warning

Please be aware that, Sorcery is presented to allow Lhankor Mhy adventurers to be created. Future supplements will detail sorcerers from other cultures and provide more details of the sorcery system. Some elements of the system will likely change to portray other cultures.

So depending on just how canon-cautious you're feeling, that could put Aeolians either in the "similar henotheist heretics" category, and therefore essentially (as it were) covered; or as subject to revision as and when we get the definitive Malkioni take.

I had read this previously, and I have already told that if Chaosium writers wanted us to play only LM sorcerors, they should have provided the rules only for LM sorcerors, and if other kind of sorcerors are provided, they will be used. I agree rules for Malkioni and Aeolians are only a sketch (and the ones for lunars are non existent), and they will (and should) be revised and expanded, but they are present in the rules.

My Aeolians are certainly not canon, and I don't care: They are for me the only henotheists described and I use them (as player and as GM) as they are described.