Characteristic increase maximum ?

[Athanor]

BRP, page 28:

Physical characteristics (STR, CON, SIZ, DEX, and APP) have a maximum value of 21 for humans. Mental characteristics (INT, POW, and EDU) can be raised without limits.

BRP, page 186

The INT and SIZ characteristics increase only through rare means, and in most settings, do not change overmuch, though the gamemaster may allow for increases based on the campaign’s setting or actions taken in the course of (or between) adventures.

and

Increasing STR or CON through training or research is limited by the highest value of the character’s original STR, CON, or SIZ

and

Any attempts to train or research an increase to the DEX or APP characteristics are limited to half again your character’s original characteristic, rounded up.

Clearly the description on how to increase POW limits it to 21 (for humans).

Isn't it a bit contradictory ?

[rust]

Isn't it a bit contradictory ?

Not necessarily, because some settings may have other means to increase characteristics than

research or training, for example magical or technical means.

[Atgxtg]

BRP, page 28:

Isn't it a bit contradictory ?

Yes, it is. Probably because it is incorporating rules from several different version of BRP.

Some of the rules go back to RQ2, other to RQ3 and still others to Elric!/CoC.

[frogspawner]

Nope, no contradictions there. Except for what you say about POW being impossible to increase beyond 21 - but I'd be surprised if that's correct.

[Trifletraxor]

BRP, page 28:

Strange Rules

BRP, page 186

RQ3 Rules

Yes, quite contradictory.

SGL.

[Atgxtg]

Strange Rules

RQ2 rules. Species Maximum = minimum amount possible plus maximum amount possible (talk about mini-maxing). Since in RQ2 humans had 3D6 for all stats (3)+(18) = 21.

RQ3 Rules

Yes, quite contradictory.

SGL.

Especially in terms of the DEX and APP/CHA limits.

[Byron Alexander]

Nope, no contradictions there. Except for what you say about POW being impossible to increase beyond 21 - but I'd be surprised if that's correct.

I think it is, but there are ways to increase your POW beyond 21 for practical purposes in games which use powers which rely on it - they just won't change the POW on your character sheet.

[soltakss]

It's a mixture of Species Maximum and Personal Maximum.

The Species Maxes (avoiding the Maximums/Maxima dilemma) reflect the fact that humans shouldn't have more than 21 in any characteristic. Let's leave aside the fact that we have had 9 foot humans or 60 stone humans as unusual examples.

The other maxes reflect personal characteristics.

The original Characteristic x 1.5 was brought in to stop people starting really weak and weedy or clumsy and training up so that they are the strongest or minblest of people. I'd scrap it, personally.

The STR/CON/SIZ was brought in, I think, to show that you cannot have runaway training and that there are physical limitations over and above the species limitations.

What I tend to do is allow increases above the personal maxes, but to halve the chance of gaining them. So, someone with STR 15, CON 15, SIZ 15 who trains STR would normally have a (21-15) * 5 chance of succeeding, but because STR is increasing above the natural limit the chance is halved to 15%. It makes it harder but possible. Similarly, increasing above the 1.5 x original value could be at half chance as well, for the same reason.

It might have been better to have a single paragraph in one place setting out the species maxes and personal maxes rather than spreading the rules everywhere.

[soltakss]

RQ2 rules. Species Maximum = minimum amount possible plus maximum amount possible (talk about mini-maxing). Since in RQ2 humans had 3D6 for all stats (3)+(18) = 21.

If my fading memory serves ...

RQ2: Max for each die + 1 per die, + 1 per increase of 3-6

RQ3: Max rollable + Min rollable.

So, nD6 in both gives 7n, 3D6+1 gives 21 for RQ2 and 23 for RQ3, 3D6+3 gives 25 for RQ2 and 30 for RQ3, 3D6+6 gives 28 for RQ2 and 33 for RQ3.

[jean]

If I remember well, in Elric it is possible to increase INT and POW without limit. It is tied to the million spheres.

In RuneQuest there is a racial maximum to POW (and INT is nearly impossible to increas)

Jean

[Atgxtg]

If my fading memory serves ...

RQ2: Max for each die + 1 per die, + 1 per increase of 3-6

RQ3: Max rollable + Min rollable.

So, nD6 in both gives 7n, 3D6+1 gives 21 for RQ2 and 23 for RQ3, 3D6+3 gives 25 for RQ2 and 30 for RQ3, 3D6+6 gives 28 for RQ2 and 33 for RQ3.

I think your memory is off on this one. The max+min rule was from RQ2, and was dopped in RQ3 in favor of the the new limits (like DEX x 1.5). In RQ3 it was perfectly possible for a human to end up with a DEX higher than 21.

As a general rule, RQ2 had stricter limits on things than RQ3.

[Thalaba]

I think your memory is off on this one. The max+min rule was from RQ2, and was dopped in RQ3 in favor of the the new limits (like DEX x 1.5). In RQ3 it was perfectly possible for a human to end up with a DEX higher than 21.

Well, he's not the only one. I remember a species maximum of max+min being applied, too, and I've never read nor played RQ2. But I just looked in the AHRQ3 book and errata and couldn't find the rule - so whaddya know. And here I was hoping that I would finally catch you on a rule! (new smileys! )

[Atgxtg]

Well, he's not the only one. I remember a species maximum of max+min being applied, too, and I've never read nor played RQ2. But I just looked in the AHRQ3 book and errata and couldn't find the rule - so whaddya know. And here I was hoping that I would finally catch you on a rule! (new smileys! )

Keep trying. It keeps me on my toes. I had a roommate who used to be able to do it with just enough frequency to be irksome, so I know I can be caught.

I think the reason why the Max+min rule was dropped was because in RQ3 there were a lot more fixed adds to stat rolls. A higher add meant a higher minimum and conversely a higher potential maximum. This meant that a creature with a 4D6+20 stat could have a potential maximum of 68!

Unfortunately, the removal of that rule led to some other bits of silliness that were probably even worse. Halfings for instance. Without the old min-max cap, thier phenomenal CON scores opened the door for them to raise their STR scores to levels well above that of a human. in RQ3, for comic effect, I once wrote up "Hobbitus Maximus Bogus", based on the idea of a Halfling with great stats who manages to train up his STR and DEX to their potential maximums. A hobbit with 24 STR & CON, a 33 DEX, and enough STR spirit magic to hit the +2D6 damage bonus is good for some laughs, and makes a great deus et machina .

Of coruse, with the ol;d limit of min+max, the Halfling could has managed to get a CON of 38 and a DEX of 34.

Edited March 19, 2010 by Atgxtg

[Rurik]

Just further proof that hobbi... err, halflings are an abomination and should be elimated at all costs.

There mere existence creates all kinds of problems, as proven by our esteemed Emeritus Rulilawyercus Atgxtg.

(I won't mention the SIZ 2 STR 24 Dwarf someone once rolled up in RQ2).

[Atgxtg]

Rrrrrruuuuuuuurrrrrrrrriiiiikkkkk!

Welcome back from your self imposed exile. I was beginning to think that you had run across another trollkin.

Less Rulilawyercus than Preventicus.

One reason why I tend to point out stuff like this is to give other GMs a heads up on this sort of thing so the don't get blidesided. I've seen a few GMs get caught with their pants down when a rule like this comes back to haunt them, myself included. Yeah, the GM is the ultimate authority and can "just say no" to some things, but that is only going to happen if/when the GM detects a problem. If he don't see it, he can't fix it. The occasional extreme example helps to point out potential pitfalls in advance.

Besides, by picking such an absurd example, I was able to prevent my players from abusing the stat training rules. Whenever someone trained up a stat, the hobbit would inevitable get mentioned, and comparisons made. Why should I have to do hard work keeping the PCs down, if I can let them do it to themselves through peer pressure?

quote=Rurik]

(I won't mention the SIZ 2 STR 24 Dwarf someone once rolled up in RQ2).

[Mugen]

I think your memory is off on this one. The max+min rule was from RQ2, and was dopped in RQ3 in favor of the the new limits (like DEX x 1.5). In RQ3 it was perfectly possible for a human to end up with a DEX higher than 21.

As a general rule, RQ2 had stricter limits on things than RQ3.

Really ?

In my memory, both condition applied.

That is, a human with an original DEX of 10 could not get a DEX higher than 15, and an other one with an original DEX of 18 could only reach 21.

I never read RQ2, so there can be no confusion here.

[Rurik]

Welcome back from your self imposed exile. I was beginning to think that you had run across another trollkin.

Naw, just been away from gaming for a bit. I've been kinda Lurking. Though if you want to reduce the chances of me being done in (again) by a pesky trollkin GO VOTE TO KILL THE DAMMN D100Rules Trollkin!

Less Rulilawyercus than Preventicus.

Fair enough, Rulilawyercus does carry some negative connotation which was not my intention (though to be fair lawyers really do server a necessary function is society - we need them so the politicians don't look quite so bad...). I blame the hobbits.

From now on I dub thee Rulicicus Preventicus Misrepresenticus Primericus.

[Atgxtg]

Really ?

In my memory, both condition applied.

That is, a human with an original DEX of 10 could not get a DEX higher than 15, and an other one with an original DEX of 18 could only reach 21.

I never read RQ2, so there can be no confusion here.

Can you find the 21 limit in the RQ3 rules?

I looked, but found not such limit mentioned in the RQ3 rule books. The section of training makes it clear that STR, CON ans SIZ are limted to the highest of the three (SIZ can't be raised), and that DEX and APP can be trained to one a a half times their original value. No mention is made that 21 is the cap.

Perhaps you are familiar with another incarnation of BRP that used the old RQ2 limits? I think early editions of CoC did.

[Atgxtg]

Naw, just been away from gaming for a bit. I've been kinda Lurking. Though if you want to reduce the chances of me being done in (again) by a pesky trollkin GO VOTE TO KILL THE DAMMN D100Rules Trollkin!

Hey, anything that the Zoran Zoran cult won't allow as members can't be all bad. I aways wanted to run through the Munchrooms adventure and convert all those Trollkin to Humakti.

Fair enough, Rulilawyercus does carry some negative connotation which was not my intention (though to be fair lawyers really do server a necessary function is society - we need them so the politicians don't look quite so bad...). I blame the hobbits.

I can't blame the hobbits, I just burnt my dinner, and I know that would never happen to a hobbit.

As for Lawyers and Politicians I think we need both of them about as much as fish need bicycles. If laws are the rules that the people of a civilization live by, then a any rules that the citizens of a civilization do not know are a waste.

From now on I dub thee Rulicicus Preventicus Misrepresenticus Primericus.

You kiddin' I get enough complaints about Atgxtg. If I go with Rulicicus Preventicus Misrepresenticus Primericus ,no one else will ever type my handle (even I did a copy & paste). RPMP is out.

[Athanor]

That is, a human with an original DEX of 10 could not get a DEX higher than 15, and an other one with an original DEX of 18 could only reach 21.

Well in the Avallon Hill RQ3 Deluxe I never saw that both conditions applied...

[Guest Vile Traveller]

You’re all right! (That’s more diplomatic than saying “You’re all wrong!”)

This is what I could find for characteristic increases in RQ2 and RQ3. Both are the UK Games Workshop versions (my RQ3 is the two-volume hardback edition, only the first book is relevant), but AFAIK they are no different than the US versions in content:

RQ2 p.8: [strength] can be increased through training, explained later, up to the rating for the character's Constitution or Size, whichever is highest. If STR is a character's highest rating of the three then it cannot be increased except by magic.

RQ2 p.8: [Constitution] can be increased up to the rating for the character's STR or Size, whichever is largest. If CON is the character's highest rating of the three then it cannot be increased except by magic.

RQ2 p.8: SIZ cannot be naturally altered.

RQ2 p.8: [intelligence] never changes, save through some miraculous intervention.

RQ2 p.8: [Power] varies over time.

RQ2 p.8: [Dexterity] can also be raised by training up to the limit of the species maximum, explained later in this chapter.

RQ2 p.8: [Charisma] can be changed by the success or failure of previous adventures which have a definite influence on the Adventurer's current CHA.

RQ2 p.9: No characteristic may be increased for any reason (including magic or divine intervention) beyond the maximum amount rollable on the characteristic dice (18 for humans) plus the number of dice rolled (3 for humans). Thus, no human may have any characteristic higher than 21.

RQ2 p.73: Species maximum amongst the various races portrayed is the maximum dice roll plus the number of dice, as with humans. If the characteristic concerned has an add, such as 2D6+6, the remaining addition is considered to be one die. Thus, a characteristic of 3D6+3 has a species maximum of 21 + 4 or 25. This also applies to additions of 12 or 18 or 24. They all count as one additional die.

So, a little bit ambiguous where magic and miraculous / divine intervention is concerned, but generally pretty clear about what can be increased.

Now for RQ3:

RQ3 p.10: Strength can be increased through training, but only up to the original characteristic amount for the character’s Constitution or Size (whichever is highest). If STR is the highest of those three characteristics, then STR cannot be increased except by magic.

RQ3 p.10: CON is increasable, but only up to the original characteristic amount equal to the character’s STR or SIZ, whichever is greater. If CON is the highest of the three, then CON may not be increased except by magic.

RQ3 p.10: Original SIZ cannot be altered except by magic – your adventurer will never need to (or be able to) diet.

RQ3 p.10: [intelligence] normally does not change, except to decrease from disease, though (very rarely) magic may affect it.

RQ3 p.10: POW can never rise above the total maximum possible rolled POW, plus the minimum possible rolled POW For humans, therefore, POW never exceeds 21.

RQ3 p.10: DEX may be raised in several ways, especially by training and magic, to the adventurer’s initial DEX x 1.5 limit.

RQ3 p.10: APP may be raised in many ways; good grooming may increase it a point or two. APP may not be increased beyond the adventurer’s initial APP x 1.5.

RQ3 p.21: Increase through training, or research, for STR and CON is limited by the highest value of the adventurer’s original STR, CON, or SIZ.

RQ3 p.21: Any training or research increase for DEX or APP is limited to half again the adventurer’s original characteristic, rounded up.

So, there is also a difference in species maximum between RQ2 and RQ3. Personally, I think that RQ3 was a little less carefully thought out than RQ2 in this respect, and a species maximum should have been included for all characteristics to put an end to all those balls-of-muscle halflings:

RQ2: Applies to all characteristics, equal to maximum rollable plus no. of dice rolled plus one for any amount of add.

RQ3: For POW, add minimum roll and maximum roll (e.g. 3D6+3 is 6 + 21 = 27). For DEX /APP, maximum is original rolled characteristic x 1.5, rounded up.

Characteristic   RQ2 Increase Limit                                                   RQ3 Increase Limit

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

STR/CON:         highest of STR, CON or SIZ or species maximum (whichever is lower)   highest of STR, CON or SIZ

POW:             species maximum                                                      minimum + maximum roll

DEX:             species maximum                                                      original roll x 1.5

CHA/APP:         species maximum                                                      original roll x 1.5

Basically, you get higher maximums in RQ3, sometimes substantially. Now, BRP, methinks, needs a little clarification in this regard.

Edited March 23, 2010 by Vile
Jeez, you didn't expect me to get all that right on one go, did you?!

[Atgxtg]

Thanks Vile for looking through RQ2 and RQ3 and taking down the quotes!

[PrinceYyrkoon]

Stormbringer V says STR, CON, SIZ, DEX and APP maximum is 21, but INT and POW have no maximum.

[Guest Vile Traveller]

Thanks Vile for looking through RQ2 and RQ3 and taking down the quotes!

Nae bother, I'm in the mood from my OCD project of typing up my old Moldvay/Cook B/X books into one combined volume!

Now I need to look through this big old BRP monster in a bit more detail to see what's going on with regard to characteristic increases. But what do the folks around here think? Any preferences? I like the STR/CON/SIZ limit, and I prefer the original x 1.5 maximum because it individualises characters a bit more (remember the good old RQ2 days when everyone had a DEX 21? ). But I'm not too keen on throwing in that odd maximum for POW - I like things neat and tidy, so I'd rather have 1.5 times original across the board (and the STR/CON/SIZ thing).

Interesting to see Stormbringer 5 still sticking with the old 21 max, though.

[Tywyll]

One of the things I NEVER understood, if your physical attributes are limited to 21 (human limit) but yet you also can't increase your attribute above the highest of your Str, Con, or Siz rolled at character creation.... how can ANY human get to a 21? Speaking specifically of RQ here.

If the answer is 'magic', then I'd argue that such would allow you to overcome maximums.